Crime and punishment, Norwegian style

[Guest]

No it doesn't.

It tells me that Norway and america are very different places.

[stourbridgefox]

There is usually a reason why someone commits crimes. Very often they are the victims of something themselves, be it violence, neglect or abuse.

I think the point of the Norwegian prison is to break the offender out of the patterns they have become used to. If a prison sentence just reinforces the violence, neglect or abuse to which a person might have been subjected to, then it will fail to rehabilitate. It might even make it worse by reinforcing the offender's view of the world.

I know some people will not accept this. It is far easier to have knee jerk reactions and ill considered solutions. They require very little mental effort to concoct and probably stem from similar impulses which make people commit violent crime anyway. Many crimes probably start with a fantasy of violence very similar to the fantasies of violence which some people seem to enjoy having in regard to criminals.

Norway, and Scandinavia as a whole, is in my opinion an example to the world. And not just in regards to criminal justice.

[stourbridgefox]

No it doesn't.

It tells me that Norway and america are very different places.

Spot on! The USA is right wing and ignorant while Norway is liberal and tolerant.

[Guest]

There is usually a reason why someone commits crimes. Very often they are the victims of something themselves, be it violence, neglect or abuse.

I think the point of the Norwegian prison is to break the offender out of the patterns they have become used to. If a prison sentence just reinforces the violence, neglect or abuse to which a person might have been subjected to, then it will fail to rehabilitate. It might even make it worse by reinforcing the offender's view of the world.

I know some people will not accept this. It is far easier to have knee jerk reactions and ill considered solutions. They require very little mental effort to concoct and probably stem from similar impulses which make people commit violent crime anyway. Many crimes probably start with a fantasy of violence very similar to the fantasies of violence which some people seem to enjoy having in regard to criminals.

Norway, and Scandinavia as a whole, is in my opinion an example to the world. And not just in regards to criminal justice.

We are all victims.

I agree with the point that you are making regarding the breaking of patterns. I have no knowledge of Norway and can only comment on the little knowledge I have of some other European systems. Norway do still use Prisons - that is the point I'm questioning - not this wonderful island paradise to get people ready for life - most British offenders know little of idyllic islands.

Rehabilitation and punishment are not the same and therefore should be treated separately not together.

Many crimes may start with fantasies as do many inventions. Don't see the point as relevant.

Many things about scandinavia are wonderful but they also are due to specific circumstances that are not the same anywhere else. I'm sure that you're not suggesting a transferral of scandinavian ways would work in the U.S./India/China etc...

The crime rate on the orkney islands is very low too.

[Guest]

Spot on! The USA is right wing and ignorant while Norway is liberal and tolerant.

Very sweeping generality. nd norway hasn't always been so liberal and tolerant. This is very time and circumstance specific.

[Guest MattP]

Spot on! The USA is right wing and ignorant while Norway is liberal and tolerant.

That's the right-wing USA with the Black Left Wing President that supports gay marriage yeah?

[stourbridgefox]

A prison sentence is intended as punishment. You have your freedom taken away.

The time spent in prison is not intended as punishment, it is intended as rehabilitation. Hence behavioural programs with sanctions and rewards.

The system does not intend that prisoners are punished while in prison.

[Rincewind]

Nor should a system punish prisoners once released. Which is why the Norway system prepare them so they do not return. If your qualifications when going to jail are nicking cars and just spend the time in a cell when you are released your qualifications will still be in nicking cars.

[Smudge]

Spot on! The USA is right wing and ignorant while Norway is liberal and tolerant.

Ignorance isn't limited to the USA apparently.

[FoxyPV]

Rehabilitation should be the focus of all penal systems rather than further punitive punishmnet. The punishment prisoners receive is their loss of freedom.

[Captain...]

Reoffending rates always make me laugh! How the hell do they know unless they are assuming that every crime is reported and every culprit is caught? Ridiculous to premise an argument on such a nonsense figure. The country with the world's lowest reoffending rate may well just be the country with the world's shittest police.

Of course they don't assume every criminal is caught, it is called statistical analysis, most stats are based on a subset or a sample and are extrapolated out based on what they know. Is it 100% accurate? No. Does it take every factor into account? No. Is it a good indicator of the actual general situation? Yes.

your argument about shit police falls flat as they won't have arrested many in the first place.

[Captain...]

"Typically" doesn't really tell me anything. Hard stats are needed. How long does it take murderers to re-offend usually? How long has this "experiment" been running? How many murderers actually re-offend? How many less murderers would re-offend if we simply said "don't do it again" to them?

Unless I'm a serial murderer and therefore mentally abnormal, I'd probably have no real need to re-offend after my sentence. So justice in Norway is that a man can murder a member of my family, then go and live on a very nice island in pretty good conditions before being released back into society.

I don't see that as justice.

Sex offenders. abuse and ruin the life of a few children, live on an island, don't get caught again for abusing children.

I'm sorry but the whole idea is abhorrent. The very least I'd want to castration of the offender.

again, my point is that prisons don't work - maybe this article is trying to argue that holiday camps would be a better solution.

You really haven't read the article have you, you just looked at the pictures and lost your little mind over the fact that some bad men actually got treated like human beings for a while.

I will summarise for you.

This Island is for rehabilitation, it is not punishment, they spend an amount of time in jail as the punishment, but before they are released due to a period of time deemed suitable punishment, they are actually encouraged to belong to a community, that is actually a simulation of real life, but with out any innocent people around to get hurt and a supporting staff to assist the rehabilitation process.

High re-offending rates are often down to being unable to readjust to life outside and not having the skills to live an honest law-abiding life, this "holiday island" is a rehabilitation camp to teach them skills that they lack to be functioning members of society.

Not all prisoners are sent to the island, only those that are suitable candidates, so the re-offending rates may be skewed by cherry picking the candidates, but how you can scoff at this when it is clearly getting results and lowering crime, just because it doesn't conform to your arcane idea of punishment, shows you up for being a stuck in the past reactionary.

[Guest]

No, I haven't read the article, tbh I didn't read all of your post either. Sorry. The article is pretty irrelevant to my thoughts on prisons and punishment of crime in general, so I didn't waste my time, I wasted it reading other people's posts and opinions and spouting mine.

An experimental prison on a nice island in Norway is so obtuse.

I did read :

you just looked at the pictures and lost your little mind over the fact that some bad men actually got treated like human beings for a while.

and thought that was pretty condescending especially as I haven't looked at the pictures.

But you're right. Bad men , Bad. Murderers, kill not give island holiday.

does that make you feel better that I've managed to re-find my little mind?

[Captain...]

No, I haven't read the article, tbh I didn't read all of your post either. Sorry. The article is pretty irrelevant to my thoughts on prisons and punishment of crime in general, so I didn't waste my time, I wasted it reading other people's posts and opinions and spouting mine.

An experimental prison on a nice island in Norway is so obtuse.

I did read :

you just looked at the pictures and lost your little mind over the fact that some bad men actually got treated like human beings for a while.

and thought that was pretty condescending especially as I haven't looked at the pictures.

But you're right. Bad men , Bad. Murderers, kill not give island holiday.

does that make you feel better that I've managed to re-find my little mind?

Now you have found it try expanding it, read the article, understand how an alternative approach to traditional methods of lock em up and throw away the key has produced better results, and ask youself this:

Could it be applied to the UK or France? Would it be successful in the UK or France?

If not why has it been successful in Norway?

Nobody has yet to create a truly effective penal system, either as punishment, deterrant or rehabilitation, but this has the best record in all of Europe so perhaps we should see what we can learn from it.

Edit: And yes I was being condescending, because your comments were that of a small minded middle englander, which is not your normal posting style.

[BoneDog]

That's the right-wing USA with the Black Left Wing President that supports gay marriage yeah?

I'd say Obama's about as left-wing as Tony Blair or Dick Cheney!

[Rincewind]

As I said in a prvious post, if you are sent to prison with no skills other than those involving criminal activity, then locked up and not given the chance to learn non criminal skills, when you leave prison the only skills you will know an use will involve going back to crime, being caught then spending more time in prison at the tax payers expense, Now would it not be better for some of the tax payers money to be spent on retraining the criminal on learning a new skill or trade prior to being released.

I learned the other week from somebody involved in prison reform, that 70% of those that go to prison cannot read or have a low IQ or suffer with some kind of mental illness. I am sure these figures are availble somewhere.

[lavrentis]

Watching programs like 'Banged up abroad' makes me greatful that our prisons are not third world like a lot of countries are and our judicial system and policeman are nowhere near as corrupt. Like purpleronnie says I don't think prison is the haven that people think it is, for me the biggest downsideabout going to prison would be the mental torture of not being able to do what you like and go wherever you like

[stourbridgefox]

Off topic but...the USA is inherently right wing. This is not because the majority of people choose to be right wing, although most in the US will believe they have made a choice. It is because a set of beliefs are sponsored from government. Such beliefs include; it is right to brutalise criminals, it is wrong to look after the poor, the rich should pay little tax, the USA is about freedom and democracy, and so on. The right wing bias of the US has been added to by the recent Tea Party movement, which is just a set of reactionary, conservative beliefs which appear to have arisen from 'the bottom' but more probably has arisen from the press and powerful individuals such as the likes of Sarah Palin. Further evidence of the right wing bias of the US is the almost universal condemnation of communism. Why should a country with 40 million living below the poverty line find communism so distasteful? Because communism is so dangerous for the US, central government must do all they can to demonise it.

I like Obama as I liked Bill Clinton, but my impression is that many in the US attack him for his left-wing leanings and the media give him a hard time. I would not say the Democrats are a centre-left party. Isn't the principle of US politics consensus? In other words, a choice between two parties who occupy a similar place on right of the political spectrum.

Also, it appears to me that Americans make a conscious effort to not see complexity in issues and regard this happy ignorance as a virtue.

Many countries try to manage the political beliefs of their citizens, or in the UK's case, subjects. An example from the UK is race relations. Only 70 years ago, the prevailing attitude in the UK was that Britain was superior to the point where it was reasonable for Britain to forcibly govern other parts of the world. The reasoning followed that if the countries were inferior then the people in them were too. That is why it is common for our grandparents to be openly racist. Since WWII, successive UK governments have attempted to change the attitudes of British people to accept racism is wrong and that Britain has become a multicultural country. This has mainly worked with the majority claiming to be anti-racist, in start contrast to 2 or 3 generations before.

So, to bring this back to prisons. The US is known for brutal treatment of prisoners, as it is known to have little sympathy and provide little help to the disadvantaged in society. The UK is split. It has had a social democratic consensus in politics since WWII which has led to help for the disadvantaged and the moderation of prison conditions. However, this social democratic consensus was changed in the 1980s when people in Britain were encouraged to become more selfish and less community spirited. Norway has long promoted liberal values and toleration, hence the Norwegian population has no qualms with rehabilitation rather than punishment being at the heart of criminal punishment.

If anyone wants to use the example of Norwegians jumping off ships and cleaving people with battle axes, I think you are stretching the point a little!

I can see how my original statement could be taken as an ignorant and ill-considered comment, however it was posted in its original short form to spare people the explanation above.

[Daggers]

Prison conditions should always be the lowest of the low imo. A tramp on the street should be able to look at a prison and be glad he isn't in there, not wish he was.

Would tramps be able to simply turn up and inspect the prisons or do you propose that prisons should hold tramp open days?

Would the tramp be judging the prison to a set criteria or would the inspection take place on a more ad-hoc basis?

[Daggers]

and you're suggesting that the present system works?

I'm saying the prison system doesn't work and that it's a terrible waste of money.

If you'd like to show me where I made that assertion I'd be grateful.

I think you are simply arguing that Prisons don't work. Which is my point too. So why bother with a nice prison? So that we feel better about ourselves?

I don't believe I argued that point either - I don't believe you have to have a polar opinion on the issue.

[Guest]

I'm told that Norway is the drug overdose capital of Europe. With a particularly heavy Heroin problem. Is that true?

[purpleronnie]

I'm told that Norway is the drug overdose capital of Europe. With a particularly heavy Heroin problem. Is that true?

I blame the prisons.

[stourbridgefox]

Iceland is the suicide capital of the world I'm led to believe. I think that's something to do with the lack of daylight at certain times of the year and Seasonal Affective Disorder.

I don't know whether everyone in Norway is on heroine to be fair.

[stourbridgefox]

I'm told that Norway is the drug overdose capital of Europe. With a particularly heavy Heroin problem. Is that true?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1083596/Britain-official-drugs-capital-Europe-youngsters-use-cocaine-ecstasy-amphetamines.html

There's your answer...with no left-wing bias guaranteed!!

[Webbo]

http://www.dailymail...phetamines.html

There's your answer...with no left-wing bias guaranteed!!

If it's in the Daily Mail it can't be true.