Charl91 Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 Sounds silly, but it's just what China are doing at the moment. And while it may sound very extreme (and it is), limiting everyone to two childreh is a much better option than everyone dying of starvation due to over-population, which is the way we are headed.
Zingari Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 I do all i can to minimise my damage...and yes i feel guilty at not being able to be perfect, so yu are right i acknowldege my hypocrisy. and try every day to do better... you? Tell you what... go veggie for a week or cut out one animal carcass meal a week... at least you will be doing something. How would you minimise the damage to this lot ? This mouse infestation is is eating the farmer's ( and ultimately your) food Would you kill these mice to survive yourself ? if you are prepared to kill animals to save your corn stock , why not to eat ?
The Doctor Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 Sounds silly, but it's just what China are doing at the moment. And while it may sound very extreme (and it is), limiting everyone to two childreh is a much better option than everyone dying of starvation due to over-population, which is the way we are headed. So what if a women is pregnant with triplets (or more)?
Captain... Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 How would you minimise the damage to this lot ? This mouse infestation is is eating the farmer's ( and ultimately your) food Would you kill these mice to survive yourself ? if you are prepared to kill animals to save your corn stock , why not to eat ? Well it is simple the mouse population will continue to grow while there is a readily available food source, but with that population growing it will reach it's limit, unless we keep planting crops for them, but sensible farmers will stop, but that is not all that will happen, this influx of mice will attract lots of mousey predators, such as small birds of prey and small predatory mammals, such as ferrets and stoats, these will then attract larger predators such as foxes and wolves, increasing their populations by feeding on the bountiful mice and mouse predators. At some point the population explosions will reach a point where mice numbers start to decline as crops run low and predators increase, this will leave us with a large number of hungry high up in the food chain predators which will quickly decimate the mouse populations and become hungry as they scrap for more food. They then start to look for other food sources and start targeting chickens and other farm animals. This is when farmers get involved and shoot them all and kill them, thus allowing the lower level animals chance to come back and it starts again. This is why we will never find balance in our man made eco systems, we have all the trump cards, and if anything isn't going our way we can change it. Without man's intervention the predator populations would decrease slowly while the mouse population increases to a point where there is balance between their numbers. Although the original mouse population explosion was man made in the first place so in the wild you would never get these situations. It sounds a lot our economy too. Rather than let the economies find balance greed and outside interference ensures we are stuck in a boom and best, mergers and acquisitions until bankrupt mind set which means we will never balance in nature or the economy.
Captain... Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 So what if a women is pregnant with triplets (or more)? Kill her she's a witch...
21st Century Fox Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 For a species that isn't supposed to eat meat (?) our bodies sure metabolise meat proteins for muscle growth well.... almost as if we evolved that way.
Captain... Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 For a species that isn't supposed to eat meat (?) our bodies sure metabolise meat proteins for muscle growth well.... almost as if we evolved that way. Technically we evolved to convert it into warming layers of fat, but we also evolved the ability to convert fat into muscle, another evolutionary backwards step some of us have taken.
MooseBreath Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 I recomend you head on down and get yourself all the raw meat you want, that should reduce the number of people i have to reply to in this thread Well you don't need to take my word for it. You're on the internet, look it up. Maybe if more of your comments were based on fact we wouldn't have 30 pages of people disagreeing with you.
MooseBreath Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 we also evolved the ability to convert fat into muscle Are you serious? That is impossible.
Charl91 Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 So what if a women is pregnant with triplets (or more)? Then you make an exception. After all, there's not so many triplets that it would add too much to the global population. Again, there would be problems with it (such as people wanting a boy/a girl), though advancement in science could probably help with that. However, look at the alternatives. Our population grows by 50% about every 40 years. At the rate we're growing, in the next 100 years, our population will have doubled to 12 Billion or so. It's not going to be too long before it becomes unsustainable - probably not in our lifetime, but also probably not too far in the future. Without change, the only outcomes I could possibly is most of the human population being wiped out by either disease, war or starvation. Too put it into perspective, in the 1600's, Englands population was about 1 million. It's now over 50 million. At that rate, in the year 2,400, England will have a population of about 2.4 Billion. The only problem is people are much too short sighted too actually think long term.
Captain... Posted 10 September 2012 Posted 10 September 2012 Are you serious? That is impossible. Well not literally, but we can convert food to muscle instead of fat, and we can burn off fat as well as put it on, it was mainly just a jibe at how some people seem to have evolved into big fat blobs and seem incapable of doing anything about it but stuffing their faces with more pie and spitting out with a mouthful of crumbs something about it being glandular.
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 Why are people so frightened of vegetarians and vegetarianism?
Captain... Posted 11 September 2012 Posted 11 September 2012 Why are people so frightened of vegetarians and vegetarianism? I don't think anyone is scared of you lot, just don't like it when people get all preachy, especially claiming evolutionary superiority, to meat eaters.
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 I don't think anyone is scared of you lot, just don't like it when people get all preachy, especially claiming evolutionary superiority, to meat eaters. Its not preachy, its an expression of belief that differs from the mainstream. The discussion then becomes a battle of whos best, people seem to become threatened by it and get personal. My simple opinion is that killing animals to eat is cruel, people can come up with a million reasons why they eat them and and can wander off topic as far as they want, nothing they say changes the fact that they kill and eat another sentient being purely for their own pleasure and without any real concern. Yes you can fight all you like for them to be kept in larger cages (before they are killed), or are given better ways of transportation (before they are killed), or are treated better in the slaughterhouses (before they are killed)... at the end of it, killing something unnecessarily is cruel and an outdated concept that we should have evolved past. I do admit to claiming evolutionary superiority in regard to the eating of animals, in the same way that im sure most people if they stop and think....claim superiority over racists, homophobes etc. Im willing to acknowledge there must be areas that others are more evolved than i and when they are pointed out to me, i try to change my attitudes and actions to reflect what a forward thinking society does. Is killing for pleasure cruel? - the only answer must be YES If there is an alternative, should we make use of it? - the only answer is YES
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 How would you minimise the damage to this lot ? This mouse infestation is is eating the farmer's ( and ultimately your) food Would you kill these mice to survive yourself ? if you are prepared to kill animals to save your corn stock , why not to eat ? These plagues come up every few years and i dont have the answer on stopping them... but i dont see what we are doing currently as solving the problem either, as evidenced by the fact they continue. I have stated time and again that, killing for self protection/preservation is something i can understand...killing for pleasure i do not. Many of the questions being posed in this thread... mouse plagues, insect overrun, overpopulation of Deer's and Moose's are just diversionary and secondary issues. The progression toward a vegetarian society is not a friday afternoon decree, it is and will take generations and the evolution of society will manage those other issues. I refer back to a previous post in this topic... A few hundred years ago the London council was extremely concerned about the increase of horse and carts coming into the city, the amount of horse poo was increasing beyond what they could cope with and they predicted in years to come that the manure would overun the city, causing enormous health problems and making the city barely suitable for living....but then..... ...cars were invented!...the manure problem no longer existed. Just assuming that evolution is linear means we will fall into a similar trap.
Zingari Posted 11 September 2012 Posted 11 September 2012 These plagues come up every few years and i dont have the answer on stopping them... but i dont see what we are doing currently as solving the problem either, as evidenced by the fact they continue. I have stated time and again that, killing for self protection/preservation is something i can understand...killing for pleasure i do not. Many of the questions being posed in this thread... mouse plagues, insect overrun, overpopulation of Deer's and Moose's are just diversionary and secondary issues. The progression toward a vegetarian society is not a friday afternoon decree, it is and will take generations and the evolution of society will manage those other issues. I refer back to a previous post in this topic... A few hundred years ago the London council was extremely concerned about the increase of horse and carts coming into the city, the amount of horse poo was increasing beyond what they could cope with and they predicted in years to come that the manure would overun the city, causing enormous health problems and making the city barely suitable for living....but then..... ...cars were invented!...the manure problem no longer existed. Just assuming that evolution is linear means we will fall into a similar trap. Sorry but i find this a very blurred definition and meat eaters don't "kill for pleasure", that's the preserve of foxhunters and cats etc They kill as part of a very complex means of human survival, that evolved via a long and torturous route from hunter-gathering . Humans that survived at that time were clever enough to view survival as a careful balance of the two. How can it be ok to kill rabbits for eating your cabbages and carrots , but not ok to then eat them as a substitute for lost production. Its still a them or us situation . Presumably you wouldn't want to kill a human for stealing your carrots , so essentially you are putting humans above other forms of life ? We are therefore , like it or not , the special ones.
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 Sorry but i find this a very blurred definition and meat eaters don't "kill for pleasure", that's the preserve of foxhunters and cats etc They kill as part of a very complex means of human survival, that evolved via a long and torturous route from hunter-gathering . Humans that survived at that time were clever enough to view survival as a careful balance of the two. How can it be ok to kill rabbits for eating your cabbages and carrots , but not ok to then eat them as a substitute for lost production. Its still a them or us situation . Presumably you wouldn't want to kill a human for stealing your carrots , so essentially you are putting humans above other forms of life ? We are therefore , like it or not , the special ones. No im not supporting the killing of bunnies for eating my carrots. The reason i say it is killing for pleasure.... We do not need to eat meat, we can get all of our nutrition requirements from sources other than animal. so, the only reason we only eat meat for our pleasure and or enjoyment... In order to eat meat, we must kill animals. Therefore, we kill animals for our pleasure and or enjoyment
Zingari Posted 11 September 2012 Posted 11 September 2012 No im not supporting the killing of bunnies for eating my carrots. The reason i say it is killing for pleasure.... We do not need to eat meat, we can get all of our nutrition requirements from sources other than animal. so, the only reason we only eat meat for our pleasure and or enjoyment... In order to eat meat, we must kill animals. Therefore, we kill animals for our pleasure and or enjoyment how would you stop them ? they are very persistent little blighters.
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 how would you stop them ? they are very persistent little blighters. Get them to ride bikes at night without lights? I dont have that answer... im sure if i did, i would be doing something other than sitting in an office in exciting downtown Perth right now. Better men than i have figured out how to make enormous lumps of metal fly etc. im sure given the time and the inclination they could figure something out.
Zingari Posted 11 September 2012 Posted 11 September 2012 Get them to ride bikes at night without lights? I dont have that answer... im sure if i did, i would be doing something other than sitting in an office in exciting downtown Perth right now. Better men than i have figured out how to make enormous lumps of metal fly etc. im sure given the time and the inclination they could figure something out. in the meantime we all starve. Surely if you want us all to be vegetatarian , all of you should get together and solve these problems first , not give vague indications that they will be solved sometime anon . If getting rid of rabbits and other pests effectively by not having to kill them was that easy or even possible , they would have surely done it by now .It's a very time consuming and costly process.
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 in the meantime we all starve. Im sure we will manage infact, just call these chaps, im sure they handled problems like this before I imagine you would prefer the world to be a safer, less violent place with and end to war, rape and famine, I imagine you would even advocate for such a world... but i guess you wont be able to do that, unless you can fix all of the side issues first.
Zingari Posted 11 September 2012 Posted 11 September 2012 i didn't think you were you old enough to remember the Goodies Oz i think my favourite ( or the one i can remember the best ) is the one about releasing baby Rolf Harris 's back into the wild
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 i didn't think you were you old enough to remember the Goodies Oz i think my favourite ( or the one i can remember the best ) is the one about releasing baby Rolf Harris 's back into the wild Sadly i am definitly old enough...in fact im so old now... im old enough to forget. Ahh the release of the Rolfs....i think they were hitting plague proportions too werent they? The accents were brilliant in that episode. I cant say my favourite Goodies ep, just so many to choose from.
ozleicester Posted 11 September 2012 Author Posted 11 September 2012 Is that doogal in the picture? it is indeed a giant Dougal... and ive just remembered my favourite episode.... Ecky Thump!! For anyone who hasnt experienced the genius of the Goodies, give it a google and have a look, great laughs.
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