Animal rights

[Rincewind]

They are living organisms. Whether plants have audible shouts of pain it depends if that has been researched or how finding it out would be done. There was a time when it was believed animals did not feel pain or have emotions but it has been shown that animals can react differently to different situations. Meerkats have different calls for a warning to a mating. If we worried about everything having a feeling we could not survive. Does a tiger or Cheetah consider the feeling of it's prey as it leaps on its back and tears into the animals soft flesh.

[ozleicester]

it's only the manned moon landings that i have some reservations about , not low earth orbit stuff

(in bold )that wasn't the question

I asked if you think space exploration would have been impossible without the use of animals?

How would it have been achieved other than sending animals (or unwilling or unwitting human guinea pigs from prisons or mental homes etc) first ?

Im not sure if it would have been possible, it was long ago. My bigger concern is about the way we treat animals today.

Hi there

Interesting thread this. First off, I am a carnivore but obviously I believe in animal rights. We are steering away from animal testing and hunting and all that here right? This is just about eating meat?

No, its original intent was to raise any issue with animal cruelty, breeding, horse racing battery hens, pigs in cages...the abuse of animals is the main issue.

I can see why someone would choose to be a vegetarian but to say everyone should be and it is somehow morally wrong to eat meat I feel goes a little too far. The obvious argument is that lots of other animals eat meat to survive and, whilst I concur that we are capable of living without ingesting the flesh of other creatures, we do have incisors. We evolved to be carnivorous animals. In fact it was only when we started to cook and eat meat that we gained the necessary nutrients to evolve in the manner that we have. We would not be the conscious, creative, beautiful species we are now unless we had started to cook and eat meat. I know that just because something has happened in the past does not mean that it is CORRECT but eating meat played a huge role in creating the miracle that is the human race and I feel that should not be overlooked.

we did evolve, and concievably meat had some part to play in that (though im not convinced) Our evolution is basic to my theory that as an evolved creature... stopping eating meat is what a intellctually advanced society would do.

Also, I have a friend who has an illness which means she is advised by doctors to eat meat. I know anecdotal arguments are often tiresome but there are lots of people who need to eat meat in order to live a healthy life. What would be the answer for these people? Left to die or shunned because of there dirty habit (yes, yes that was a cheap emotive argument but it is worth noting that this argument is not always black and white).

Doctors dont actually always know best, of course i dont know what your friend needs meat for, but im pretty sure a well educated dietician could suggest a death free alternative.

I don't know, of course I agree in trying to reduce the suffering of the animals but I think that eating meat is fine.

This line is the reason that the discussion has found its way to this point.... by eating meat, you are killing an animal... no matter how you do it, no matter how its life is prior to being killed, you are responsible for its ultimate suffering-death.

Interesting topic though and when I am more awake I might think of other points to make.

Cheers

Rumble.

Cheers

Good post Rumble, been a while since Ive seen you post, and wheres the 'x' at the end?

Aaaaanyway, Im going to be a right argumentative and stirring nob now.

Whats everyones views on Peta, and their almost Nazi-esque propaganda? Is it fine for them to sexualise poster campaigns with naked women in order to get their vegan/vegetarian point across? Surely that could be deemed as sexist, which would then mean women are to be seen as objects and not equal to man? Isnt the animal rights movement about rights and equality?

I find PETA a real challenge, i respect their passion and belief, but on occasion they go beyond what i feel is acceptable. But, desperate times call for desperate measures.

Raising something from a closed topic, about the alcohol/rape posters that got banned.... could something like this be banned, for suggesting that eating meat can kill you or make you impotent?

They are stating facts, so i dont know about the other topic... but facts are facts, red meat is the major cause of Bowel cancer.

Even the burning down of fast food restaurants etc? Destruction of property and putting lives at risk? Scaremongering and propaganda? Objectifying women and sexism? (I know not all of them are idiots and burn places down etc, but it doesnt really do them any favours )

I have said all along that I DO think things need to be done about the way SOME farms are run etc, but they way they go about it is not exactly the best way to do it. There really is an issue, but lets not forget that not all farms etc are run by tyrants hell bent on causing suffering to animals

No but they are all run to ensure that an innocent animal is killed, surely killing is the ultimate cruelty?

So should we stop animals eating other animals then? Should we be trying to make every animal vegetarian? o.O

Please please READ the whole topic...this has been asked and answerd at least 3 times. I believe Carnivorous animals should be free to do as they need to survive, Human beings do not need to be carnivorous... we only eat animals because it brings us pleasure

I'd like to touch on previous points regarding pets, what are we going to do with the domesticated animals?

Can we realistically make cats and dogs, the most common pets, fight for life in the wild and fend for themselves?

Is it even possible to make these animals become undomesticated without them becoming extinct?

AGAIN... Generaltional change - evolution.... this is a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng term concept

What about wild animals facing extinction, do we have the right to interfere with nature and take these animals into captivity to help them breed and continue existing?

if we are responsible for their extinction, then yes, i think we have a responsibility to rebuild their numbers and provide them with an appropriate area to live freely.

On a separate note what about Human parasites that cause no real medical harm but we currently kill. Do we have the right to destroy head lice for example?

AGAIN.... Self preservation is a basic right i believe

A recent study by Loughborough University has found that carnivorous plants in bogs in Sweden are eating less insects to gain the required level of nitrogen in their diet. Instead, they are getting it from increased levels in the ground. The Nitrogen levels in the ground have risen because of greater air pollution, and so the chemicals fall with the rain and filter down.

Is this a good thing because they are eating less 'carcass'? Or is it a bad thing because man is forcing change upon them?

self preservation and the eating of meat by carnivorous plants or animals is fine ... however this is a very interesting additional part of the reason that being veggie is a beeter option for the human race... currently approx 25% of CO2 going into the atmosphere is as a result of animal/livestock farming... stop eating meat, a quarter of the climate change issue is solved. Interesting page here... http://www.happycow.net/why_vegetarian.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/18416601

Told you I was being argumentative

Are plants sentient? Not a new question but we know they react to their environments.

Can they feel pain? Can we be sure they don't and if they do is that better or worse than animals feeling pain?

Are we any more justified cutting plants up for food than we are animals?

http://en.wikipedia....on_(physiology)

http://www.environme...e-flora?image=1

http://www.environme...sentient-plants

No, plants do not have an central nervous system and do not feel pain

[BoneDog]

I've found some of the quotes from that book I was gannin' on abooot. If these people are correct then it is not so natural for mankind to eat meat at all.

The following quotes are from the sections 'More natural to man' and ' Greater strength'. Sorry it's a big quote, but I think it's interesting.

"More natural.

Third: Because man is not naturally made to be carnivorous, and therefore this horrible food is not suited to him. Here again let me give you a few quotations to show you what authorities are ranged upon our side of this matter. Baron Cuvier himself writes: "The natural food of man, judging from his structure, consists of fruit, roots and vegetables"; and Professor Ray tells us: "Certainly man was never made to be a carnivorous animal." Sir Richard Owen, F.R.C.S., writes: "Anthropoids and all the quadrumana derive their alimentation from fruits, grains and other succulent vegetable substances, and the strict analogy which exists between the structures of these animals and that of man clearly demonstrates his frugivorous nature."

Another Fellow of the Royal Society, Professor William Lawrence, writes: "The teeth of man have not the slightest resemblance to those of carnivorous animals; and whether we consider the teeth, the jaws or the digestive organs, the human structure closely resembles that of the frugivorous animals."

Once more Dr. Spencer Thompson remarks: "No physiologist would dispute that man ought to live on vegetartian diet"; and Dr. Sylvester Graham writes: "Comparative anatomy proves that man is naturally a frugivorous animal, formed to subsist upon fruits, seeds, and farinaceous vegetables."

...and...

"Strength.

Fourth: Because men are stronger and better on a vegetarian diet. I know that people say: "You will be so weak if you do not eat dead flesh." As a matter of fact this is untrue. I do not know whether there may be any people who find themselves weaker on a diet of vegetables; but I do know this, that in many athletic contests recently the vegetarians have proved themselves the strongest and the most enduring - as for example in the recent cycling races in Germany, where all those who took high places in the race were vegetarian. There have been many such trials, and they show that, other things being equal, the man who takes pure food succeeds better. We have to face facts, and in this case the facts are all ranged on one side, as against foolish prejudices and loathsome lust on the other.

The reason was plainly given by Dr. J. D. Craig, who writes:

"Vigour of body is often boasted by flesh-eaters, particularly if they live mostly in the open air; but there is this peculiarity about them, that they have not the endurance of vegetarians. The reason of this is that flesh-meat is already on the downward path of retrograde change, and as a consequence its presence in the tissues is of short duration. The impetus given to it in the body of the animal from which it was taken is reinforced by another impulse in the second one, and for these reasons what energy it does contain is soon given out, and there are urgent demands for more to take its place. The flesh-eater, then, may do a large amount of work in a short time if well-fed. He soon gets hungry, however, and when so becomes weak. On the other hand, vegetable products are of slow digestion; they contain all of the original store of energy, and no poisons; their retrograde change is less rapid than meat, having just commenced, and therefore their force is released more slowly with less loss, and the person nourished by them can work for a long time without food if necessary, and without discomfort. The people in Europe who abstain from flesh are of the better and more intelligent class, and the subject of endurance has been approached and thoroughly investigated by them. In Germany and England a number of notable athletic contests that required endurance have been made between flesh-eaters and vegetarians, with the result that the vegetarian has invariably come off victorious."

We shall find, if we investigate, that this fact has been known for a long time, for even in ancient history we find traces of it. It will be recollected that of all the tribes of Greeks the strongest and most enduring, tby universal admission and reputation, were the Spartans; and the simplicity of their vegetable diet is a matter of common knowledge. Think too of the Greek athletes - those who prepared themselves with such care for participation in the Olympian and Isthmian games.

If you will read the classics you will find that these men, who in their own line surpassed all the rest of the world, lived upon figs, nuts, cheese and maize. Then there were the Roman gladiators - men on whose strength depended their life and fame; and yet we find that their diet consisted exclusively of barley-cakes and oil; they knew well that this was the more strengthening food.

All these examples show us that the common and persistent fallacy that one must eat flesh in order to be strong has no foundation in fact; indeed the exact contrary is true. Charles Darwin remarked in one of his letters: "The most extraordinary workers I ever saw, the labourers in the mines of Chile, live exclusively on vegetable food, including many leguminous plants.""

There is another section regarding disease and illness resulting from meat eating. I may post a portion from that later.

[marty78]

CONCLUSIONS

From the work of Peak et al. (2004), Mott and Peak (2007), Melotto et al. (2006), from our own work (Karpinski et al., 1999; Fryer et al., 2003; Chang et al., 2004,2009; Mateo et al., 2004; Klenell et al., 2005; Mühlenbock et al., 2007, 2008), and the experiments presented here, we conclude that plants solve their optimal light acclimation (SAA), immune defense (SAR and innate immunity), photosynthesis, and transpiration by a computational algorithm (cellular automation) in which input, output, and processing of the data are all accomplished using the same hardware. Our experiments identified some parts of this hardware, which includes quantum redox changes in PSII and in its proximity (e.g., in NPQ and redox status of the glutathione and PQ pools), PEPS, ROS/hormonal circuits, and finally the cellular light memory. Probably, it is the most elegant system that evolved in complex photosynthetic organisms, since it uses absorbed photons energy in excess by some leaves to improve survival chances of a whole plant. Animals have their network of neuron synapses, electrophysiological circuits, and memory, but plants have their network of chloroplasts (connected by stromules), PEPS circuits transduced by bundle sheath cells, and cellular light (quantum) memory. We are aware that these results suggest that plants have the capacity to be trained and memorize; indeed, leaves in the dark are able to not only see the light (Foyer and Noctor, 1999; Karpinski et al., 1999), but also are able to differently remember its spectral composition and use this memorized information to increase their survival chances.

Above taken from PlantCell

I suppose it doesn't really matter since we have to eat plants but I don't see why animals are necessarily a life form less deserving of the right to life. I guess my question is, if we had an alternative to both plant and meat food (man made of course) would you still place animals above plants?

[sphericalfox]

I've found some of the quotes from that book I was gannin' on abooot. If these people are correct then it is not so natural for mankind to eat meat at all.

The following quotes are from the sections 'More natural to man' and ' Greater strength'. Sorry it's a big quote, but I think it's interesting.

"More natural.

Third: Because man is not naturally made to be carnivorous, and therefore this horrible food is not suited to him. Here again let me give you a few quotations to show you what authorities are ranged upon our side of this matter. Baron Cuvier himself writes: "The natural food of man, judging from his structure, consists of fruit, roots and vegetables"; and Professor Ray tells us: "Certainly man was never made to be a carnivorous animal." Sir Richard Owen, F.R.C.S., writes: "Anthropoids and all the quadrumana derive their alimentation from fruits, grains and other succulent vegetable substances, and the strict analogy which exists between the structures of these animals and that of man clearly demonstrates his frugivorous nature."

Another Fellow of the Royal Society, Professor William Lawrence, writes: "The teeth of man have not the slightest resemblance to those of carnivorous animals; and whether we consider the teeth, the jaws or the digestive organs, the human structure closely resembles that of the frugivorous animals."

Once more Dr. Spencer Thompson remarks: "No physiologist would dispute that man ought to live on vegetartian diet"; and Dr. Sylvester Graham writes: "Comparative anatomy proves that man is naturally a frugivorous animal, formed to subsist upon fruits, seeds, and farinaceous vegetables."

...and...

"Strength.

Fourth: Because men are stronger and better on a vegetarian diet. I know that people say: "You will be so weak if you do not eat dead flesh." As a matter of fact this is untrue. I do not know whether there may be any people who find themselves weaker on a diet of vegetables; but I do know this, that in many athletic contests recently the vegetarians have proved themselves the strongest and the most enduring - as for example in the recent cycling races in Germany, where all those who took high places in the race were vegetarian. There have been many such trials, and they show that, other things being equal, the man who takes pure food succeeds better. We have to face facts, and in this case the facts are all ranged on one side, as against foolish prejudices and loathsome lust on the other.

The reason was plainly given by Dr. J. D. Craig, who writes:

"Vigour of body is often boasted by flesh-eaters, particularly if they live mostly in the open air; but there is this peculiarity about them, that they have not the endurance of vegetarians. The reason of this is that flesh-meat is already on the downward path of retrograde change, and as a consequence its presence in the tissues is of short duration. The impetus given to it in the body of the animal from which it was taken is reinforced by another impulse in the second one, and for these reasons what energy it does contain is soon given out, and there are urgent demands for more to take its place. The flesh-eater, then, may do a large amount of work in a short time if well-fed. He soon gets hungry, however, and when so becomes weak. On the other hand, vegetable products are of slow digestion; they contain all of the original store of energy, and no poisons; their retrograde change is less rapid than meat, having just commenced, and therefore their force is released more slowly with less loss, and the person nourished by them can work for a long time without food if necessary, and without discomfort. The people in Europe who abstain from flesh are of the better and more intelligent class, and the subject of endurance has been approached and thoroughly investigated by them. In Germany and England a number of notable athletic contests that required endurance have been made between flesh-eaters and vegetarians, with the result that the vegetarian has invariably come off victorious."

We shall find, if we investigate, that this fact has been known for a long time, for even in ancient history we find traces of it. It will be recollected that of all the tribes of Greeks the strongest and most enduring, tby universal admission and reputation, were the Spartans; and the simplicity of their vegetable diet is a matter of common knowledge. Think too of the Greek athletes - those who prepared themselves with such care for participation in the Olympian and Isthmian games.

If you will read the classics you will find that these men, who in their own line surpassed all the rest of the world, lived upon figs, nuts, cheese and maize. Then there were the Roman gladiators - men on whose strength depended their life and fame; and yet we find that their diet consisted exclusively of barley-cakes and oil; they knew well that this was the more strengthening food.

All these examples show us that the common and persistent fallacy that one must eat flesh in order to be strong has no foundation in fact; indeed the exact contrary is true. Charles Darwin remarked in one of his letters: "The most extraordinary workers I ever saw, the labourers in the mines of Chile, live exclusively on vegetable food, including many leguminous plants.""

There is another section regarding disease and illness resulting from meat eating. I may post a portion from that later.

First of all, Dr. Sylvester Graham, hardly the source I'd go to if I was looking for a scientific answer to whether to go meat-free, and his pal, Dr. Spencer Thompson? Really quoting from 'Vegetarian and Occultism'? Not being funny with you but I'd much rather go with a proper scientific insight into the subject rather than using quotes from these two lads.

I do think we should eat more veggies and fruit. There's no doubt about this, and reduce our intake of meat, the processed meat should be cut entirely as it's destroying our guts and giving us lovely cancer.

However, we evolved larger brains due to the fact that we consumed meat in our evolution rather munching on insects, nuts and berries.

http://www.npr.org/2...made-us-smarter

I look forward to eating mush however.

http://news.national...human_diet.html

[BoneDog]

First of all, Dr. Sylvester Graham, hardly the source I'd go to if I was looking for a scientific answer to whether to go meat-free, and his pal, Dr. Spencer Thompson? Really quoting from 'Vegetarian and Occultism'? Not being funny with you but I'd much rather go with a proper scientific insight into the subject rather than using quotes from these two lads.

I do think we should eat more veggies and fruit. There's no doubt about this, and reduce our intake of meat, the processed meat should be cut entirely as it's destroying our guts and giving us lovely cancer.

However, we evolved larger brains due to the fact that we consumed meat in our evolution rather munching on insects, nuts and berries.

http://www.npr.org/2...made-us-smarter

I look forward to eating mush however.

http://news.national...human_diet.html

I don't own that book, just saw some parts of it once when reading about this subject somewhere else and thought it interesting. What about the other guys quoted?

Are we really carnivorous in nature or are our digestive systems, teeth and jaws proof otherwise? I'm not sure...just thought I'd throw the quotes out there as I've seen some posters mention that we are meat-eaters by nature.

EDIT : Side note - I don't believe a word of that link that mentions meat making us smarter. The other skeletons that evolutionists refer to are a separate species/animal that hasn't survived. Probably got caught up in some cataclysm at some point. "Our need for large teeth waned (so we started to grow smaller teeth )". Different species.

That is a side note not intended to derail the thread.

[Charl91]

On a separate note what about Human parasites that cause no real medical harm but we currently kill. Do we have the right to destroy head lice for example?

]AGAIN.... Self preservation is a basic right i believe[/b]

Killing headlice is not self preservation though, is it. Headlice don't put our lives in jeopardy, they're an annoyance at best. Surely we'd only be killing them for our comfort? Or does that mean we are allowed to kill any living being which is deemed an annoyance?

[Rincewind]

Yes. Saw a carpet bug on the landing so I stood on it. Went in bathroom and it had started walking so I killed it again. Bastarted thought it had fooled me.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

The human animal is the worst form of life on our planet(

[AdamN]

The human animal is the worst form of life on our planet(

Clearly you've never seen one of these

[Zingari]

What should we do about Dangerous Tigers roaming loose ?

[Daggers]

The answer isn't banning meat - it's banning the shit we allow to be injected into meat.

You wouldn't believe the difference in the taste of a steak in Venezuela compared to the crap served up here.

[Guest MattP]

The answer isn't banning meat - it's banning the shit we allow to be injected into meat.

You wouldn't believe the difference in the taste of a steak in Venezuela compared to the crap served up here.

You can tell the difference in Chicken from here and China as well, never had chicken like it over there, was absolutely beautiful.

[Zingari]

pfft

you should taste the cockles in Blackpool , they're fook all like those you get from that bloke who comes round selling them in the pubs here !

[Daggers]

pfft

you should taste the cockles in Blackpool , they're fook all like those you get from that bloke who comes round selling them in the pubs here !

Having smelt Blackpool all last weekend I can well believe it.

[Guest MattP]

[acooling08]

Do you think the world will ever be majority vegetarian?

Personally I can't see it ever happening.

[ozleicester]

I suppose it doesn't really matter since we have to eat plants but I don't see why animals are necessarily a life form less deserving of the right to life. I guess my question is, if we had an alternative to both plant and meat food (man made of course) would you still place animals above plants?

Yes, to my knowledge, Plants are not sentient, and do not think or have the ability to feel pain. But having said that (assuming the damage to the planet isnt increased) i would welcome synthetic food.

Killing headlice is not self preservation though, is it. Headlice don't put our lives in jeopardy, they're an annoyance at best. Surely we'd only be killing them for our comfort? Or does that mean we are allowed to kill any living being which is deemed an annoyance?

This is a fair point, although i think we are getting a little pedantic and if we want to walk that path, i could possibly make an argument that lice, fleas etc carry disease and place our society at risk, therefore self preservation, but that is tenuous... tell you what... I'll agree to everyone killing any bugs and insects..if youll agree to everyone stopping eating meat

The answer isn't banning meat - it's banning the shit we allow to be injected into meat.

You wouldn't believe the difference in the taste of a steak in Venezuela compared to the crap served up here.

Not sure that actually assists with the reduction of cruelty to animals

Congratulations on mastering the art of copy and paste... you must be so proud, and im pleased for you that you have someone in your life who is taking the time to read these things to you.

Do you think the world will ever be majority vegetarian?

Yes, or at the very least a world that eats synthetic meats and doesnt kill animals for its pleasure.

Personally I can't see it ever happening.

[ozleicester]

and just to prove that Veggies to can copy and paste

Why not have a read of this and rather than become defensive or threatened by it... just think about what it is saying...

20 reasons to go Veg (actually its probably more like 14 reasons as a couple seem to be repeated)

1. you’ll live longer. studies show that on average vegans live 6 years longer than meat eaters.

2. avoid toxins. (non-organic) meat contains antibiotics, hormones & toxins produced by stress & pesticide residues that become concentrated from all the crops they have eaten.

3. less land consumption. an astounding 20 vegans can live off the same amount of land required by one meat eater.

4. less water consumption. it only takes 25 gallons of water to produce 1lb of wheat whereas it takes 2500 gallons to produce 1lb of meat.

5. reduce potential for food poison. 80% of food poisoning is due to infected meat.

6. reduced risk of heart disease. vegans have a 57% reduced risk of getting heart disease (the #1 killer in america today!).

7. proper protein. the average american eats twice as much protein as necessary for a healthy diet and much of that is from red meat. getting protein from beans and grains is much healthier and reduces the risk for osteoporosis.

8. healthy hormones. eating animals that have been given hormones to speed growth (a widely accepted practice in the meat industry) means those hormones go into your body. not only can this disrupt the natural balance of your hormones, but some of the hormones given to animals have shown to cause tumor growth in humans.

9. avoid antibiotics. antibiotics are almost always given to (non-organic) feed animals, which can lead to bacterial resistance in humans. many of the antibiotics used to treat human infections are also used in feed animals. this means by consuming this, we are causing ourselves to be less resistant to antibiotics.

10. increased weight loss. a healthy weight loss is a typical result of a smart vegan diet. eating vegan eliminates most of the unhealthy foods that tend to cause weight issues. 33% percent of americans are obese, while only 2% of vegans are.

11. prevent osteoporosis. bone health depends on a balance of neither too much or too little protein, adequate calcium intake, high potassium, and low sodium. with a healthy vegan diet, all four of these points set a perfect scenario for preventing osteoporosis.

12. appropriate puberty. since 1950, girls are hitting puberty on average 4-7 years earlier and boy’s sperm counts have decreased by 25-50% due to the hormones present in non-organic meat and dairy products.

13. reduced risk of alzheimers. meat eaters have double the rate of alzheimers disease as vegans.

14. support heathy ecosystems. nitrates & pesticides used on crops grown to feed livestock end up in our rivers and vastly effect the health of micro environments and ecosystems.

15. reduce global warming. the 1,300,000,000 cattle in the world emit 60,000,000 tons of methane per year (methane is a greenhouse gas which leads to global warming).

16. reduce animal cruelty. the animals involved in mass industry farming are exposed to the most cruel, unsanitary and horrific conditions. if you can handle watching it, the ‘meet your meat‘ (beware this movie is horrific) movie will give you a glance into the common practices of present day industry farming.

17. reduce your risk for cancer. vegans have a 40% reduced level of cancer than the general population thought to be because they have a higher intake of vitamins A,C & E.

18. eliminate bad cholesterol. eliminating any food that comes from an animal and you will eliminate all of the ‘bad’ dietary cholesterol from your diet (heart disease is the leading cause of death in america today).

19. save rain forests. if they continue to clear american forests to raise cattle at the present rate, in 50 years there will be none left.

20. increase your energy. when following a healthy vegan diet, you will find your energy is much higher.

[OzFox]

Why not have a read of this and rather than become defensive or threatened by it...

16. reduce animal cruelty. the animals involved in mass industry farming are exposed to the most cruel, unsanitary and horrific conditions. if you can handle watching it, the ‘meet your meat‘ (beware this movie is horrific) movie will give you a glance into the common practices of present day industry farming.

I think I can guarantee that most people won't watch that video, or any other video to do with animal cruelty. Ignorance is bliss.

The pig slaughter at the end is particularly gruesome. It's disgusting that in this day and age they can't come up with something less barbaric than that.

I watched a doco from the UK recently set in a pig abbattoir up north. They were training a new kid to do the "sticking" ie: shoving a rusty knife into the pigs throats. Because he was inexperienced, he kept stabbing and missing the artery while the pig thrashed around in desperation. Even when they do get it right, the pig often comes around during the bleed out, as can be seen in your video.

[Zingari]

Greater reliance on vegetarian produce will obviously mean greater areas of land dedicated to it. (not all of it particularly suited to it)

Most (if not all) vegetable and fruit production attracts animal life that feeds off it (think of Peter Rabbit trying to nick the farmer’s carrots or cabbages )

How would you intend controlling the rabbits, moles, locusts, crows and all other forms of wildlife that will inevitably invade your new humane world allotment.

I don’t think barbed wire fences will keep them out, so presumably there would need to be a positive force used against them and I’m almost pretty sure this will have to involve killing them .

Is killing animals to protect agricultural produce (as we do already) any more humane than rearing them ?

It still pretty much amounts to a “them or us†situation, or do you disagree?

edit;

sorry if you've covered this already , just roughly point me in right area for previous answers

i looked back through a few pages and couldn't even remember posting some my own .

you really do need an FAQ list now

[Reynard Bleu]

Animal welfare, in the so called first world is one thing. Changes for the better have been made and continue to be made, but in many areas of the East and Far East its not high on the agenda. In markets in South East Asia live stock is often sold live, carried home upside down on a bike and disptached who knows how? This of course includes some animals we thnk of as pets the West. Changing the habits of the world is top of the hard to do pile. We can really only do our own little bit, the rest of the world is unlikely to be impressed though.

[Captain...]

and just to prove that Veggies to can copy and paste

Why not have a read of this and rather than become defensive or threatened by it... just think about what it is saying...

20 reasons to go Veg (actually its probably more like 14 reasons as a couple seem to be repeated)

1. you’ll live longer. studies show that on average vegans live 6 years longer than meat eater. Key words here, on average, of course an average Vegan will live longer because by virtue of being a vegan you have to be very careful of what you eat to have a healthy balanced diet, of the non vegans some will be healthy omnivores, and others won't and will eat any old crap bringing the average down, healthy balanced omnivore diet is the same as a healthy balanced vegan diet.

2. avoid toxins. (non-organic) meat contains antibiotics, hormones & toxins produced by stress & pesticide residues that become concentrated from all the crops they have eaten. So meat contains toxins from crops, and you want us to eat the crops directly, increase in veggies means an increase in demand for crops, means an increase in the use of pesticides and hormones to produce the crops. I try to eat Organic meat and I think there are tighter controls in the UK than the states on this, but I could be wrong.

3. less land consumption. an astounding 20 vegans can live off the same amount of land required by one meat eater. True, but I eat a lot of fish and they take up no land

4. less water consumption. it only takes 25 gallons of water to produce 1lb of wheat whereas it takes 2500 gallons to produce 1lb of meat. So give it less water to drink... no seriously though, do you think that water has been used up, do you think it is gone, and there is no more water in the world, or do you think it is recycled back into the ecosystem?

5. reduce potential for food poison. 80% of food poisoning is due to infected meat. This only applies to people that can't cook, or don't know how to store food properly (or eat at dodgy restaurants)

6. reduced risk of heart disease. vegans have a 57% reduced risk of getting heart disease (the #1 killer in america today!). See point 1.

7. proper protein. the average american eats twice as much protein as necessary for a healthy diet and much of that is from red meat. getting protein from beans and grains is much healthier and reduces the risk for osteoporosis. I'm not american, and it is again assuming non vegan can't have a balanced diet.

8. healthy hormones. eating animals that have been given hormones to speed growth (a widely accepted practice in the meat industry) means those hormones go into your body. not only can this disrupt the natural balance of your hormones, but some of the hormones given to animals have shown to cause tumor growth in humans. A fair point but I try to eat only organic meat, or non farmed fish.

9. avoid antibiotics. antibiotics are almost always given to (non-organic) feed animals, which can lead to bacterial resistance in humans. many of the antibiotics used to treat human infections are also used in feed animals. this means by consuming this, we are causing ourselves to be less resistant to antibiotics. Not going to give you this one without any evidence, I don't think these practices are common in the UK, and like I said eating organic avoids this problem.

10. increased weight loss. a healthy weight loss is a typical result of a smart vegan diet. eating vegan eliminates most of the unhealthy foods that tend to cause weight issues. 33% percent of americans are obese, while only 2% of vegans are. Again not American and non vegan doesn't mean unhealthy.

11. prevent osteoporosis. bone health depends on a balance of neither too much or too little protein, adequate calcium intake, high potassium, and low sodium. with a healthy vegan diet, all four of these points set a perfect scenario for preventing osteoporosis. And with a healthy meat eating diet, eating meat does not mean you are unhealthy.

12. appropriate puberty. since 1950, girls are hitting puberty on average 4-7 years earlier and boy’s sperm counts have decreased by 25-50% due to the hormones present in non-organic meat and dairy products. See point 9

13. reduced risk of alzheimers. meat eaters have double the rate of alzheimers disease as vegans. Is there a proven link between meat and alzheimers, or is it just unhealthy eating, or because of chemicals in non organic meat?

14. support heathy ecosystems. nitrates & pesticides used on crops grown to feed livestock end up in our rivers and vastly effect the health of micro environments and ecosystems. See point 2.

15. reduce global warming. the 1,300,000,000 cattle in the world emit 60,000,000 tons of methane per year (methane is a greenhouse gas which leads to global warming). Solution, kill off the cattle? Plug up their bum holes?

16. reduce animal cruelty. the animals involved in mass industry farming are exposed to the most cruel, unsanitary and horrific conditions. if you can handle watching it, the ‘meet your meat‘ (beware this movie is horrific) movie will give you a glance into the common practices of present day industry farming. No argument there.

17. reduce your risk for cancer. vegans have a 40% reduced level of cancer than the general population thought to be because they have a higher intake of vitamins A,C & E. Again is the link to meat, or to eating too much red meat something that can be easily controlled, but often isn't.

18. eliminate bad cholesterol. eliminating any food that comes from an animal and you will eliminate all of the ‘bad’ dietary cholesterol from your diet (heart disease is the leading cause of death in america today). But eating a healthy balanced diet including meat and fish will also not cause you cholesterol problems.

19. save rain forests. if they continue to clear american forests to raise cattle at the present rate, in 50 years there will be none left. True (well I think it is an over simplification, the logging industry are also fairly quick to help).

20. increase your energy. when following a healthy vegan diet, you will find your energy is much higher. When following a healthy balanced omnivorous diet you will also have plenty of energy.

See comments in red.

The main argument seems to be that the average Vegan is healthier than the average non-vegan, which is undoubtedly true because Vegans need to be very aware of what they eat, and take a lot of interest and time over it. Anybody who takes a lot of care over what they put in there body will be healthier than someone who doesn't. This is not proof that a meat free diet is less healthy than a meaty diet, if you added a bit of organic chicken or fish to a vegan diet, you wouldn't increase your risk of any of the above and could still have a healthy balanced diet, if you eat a lot of cheap badly produced, uncared for and poorly looked after processed meat and no veggies then of course it is unhealthy and you leave yourself open to more health problems and diseases.

[Rincewind]

I have not read the book for a long while but on The Grapes Of Wrath by John Steinback there is a good passage where there is a description of killing a pig, cutting it up then hanging it up to cure. Also a good film. But if I remember right the family involved looked after the pig whilst it was alive. I expect they thought it would give tastier meat if treated with kindness.

The story was set iduring the American Depression in the 1920's and about a family traveling across the US trying to find work and a place to live.

[marty78]

I think I can guarantee that most people won't watch that video, or any other video to do with animal cruelty. Ignorance is bliss.

The pig slaughter at the end is particularly gruesome. It's disgusting that in this day and age they can't come up with something less barbaric than that.

I watched a doco from the UK recently set in a pig abbattoir up north. They were training a new kid to do the "sticking" ie: shoving a rusty knife into the pigs throats. Because he was inexperienced, he kept stabbing and missing the artery while the pig thrashed around in desperation. Even when they do get it right, the pig often comes around during the bleed out, as can be seen in your video.

I watched it but surprisingly feel no less ignorant than before.

Oh and head lice don't carry Human disease to the best of our knowledge.