Animal rights

[Charl91]

The meat argument gets way over complicated. You can dress it up in biological terms but its such a base argument when it comes down to it. Eating meat is murder, and we can all live perfectly healthily and happily without it. That is the reason I am vegetarian, no more than that really.

It's not such a base argument though. Why stop at animals then? Plants are living things and you eat plants - what right do you have to end somethings life? On another track, should we be allowed to kill mosquitos, or is it only cute and cuddly animals that are exempt? What about buildings which will take the life of thousands of creatures and destroy their natural habitat - do we stop all construction work?

It's so much more complicated than you think it is.

[ozleicester]

It's not such a base argument though. Why stop at animals then? Plants are living things and you eat plants - what right do you have to end somethings life? On another track, should we be allowed to kill mosquitos, or is it only cute and cuddly animals that are exempt?

It's so much more complicated than you think it is.

Read the preceeding 24 pages this has been answered a dozen times.. Plant DO NOT have central nervous systems and do not feel pain.

[Charl91]

Read the preceeding 24 pages this has been answered a dozen times.. Plant DO NOT have central nervous systems and do not feel pain.

I know. So what you are basically arguing is that it isn't the taking of life which is wrong, but causing pain.

So if we kill an animal in a way which doesn't cause pain, then it's fine?

[Zingari]

how do vegetarians intend to control pests ( moles kangaroos rabbits birds etc etc )that will want to eat all the lovely veggies that the farmer has grown ?

[21st Century Fox]

how do vegetarians intend to control pests ( moles kangaroos rabbits birds etc etc )that will want to eat all the lovely veggies that the farmer has grown ?

Gas them. Have you ever smelt a vegetatian's fart?

[ozleicester]

I know. So what you are basically arguing is that it isn't the taking of life which is wrong, but causing pain.

So if we kill an animal in a way which doesn't cause pain, then it's fine?

No.. again.. read the previous... animals are sentient beings, they understand what is going on and they suffer. Plants do not,

They discussion has been had in regard to the test tube production of meat and i am supportive of that... yet meat eaters are not. It seems that killing is part of the pleasure for many.

how do vegetarians intend to control pests ( moles kangaroos rabbits birds etc etc )that will want to eat all the lovely veggies that the farmer has grown ?

A well balanced ecological society will take care of its self

Gas them. Have you ever smelt a vegetatian's fart?

We can adequately gas ourselves then

[ozleicester]

I know. So what you are basically arguing is that it isn't the taking of life which is wrong, but causing pain.

So if we kill an animal in a way which doesn't cause pain, then it's fine?

is it ok to kill a person.. as long as they dont suffer?

[Charl91]

is it ok to kill a person.. as long as they dont suffer?

Depends whether I wanted to eat them or not.

As I am pro death-penalty, I would say yes it is. However, we don't eat other humans so we have no need to kill them - just as I wouldn't kill animals for fun, unless I wanted to eat them.

Oh and by the way, the amount of humans living on this planet does not fit into a "well balanced ecological society".

[Zingari]

No.. again.. read the previous... animals are sentient beings, they understand what is going on and they suffer. Plants do not,

They discussion has been had in regard to the test tube production of meat and i am supportive of that... yet meat eaters are not. It seems that killing is part of the pleasure for many.

A well balanced ecological society will take care of its self

We can adequately gas ourselves then

Are you saying that farmers of vegetable and cereals etc need not take any action against animals and birds that want to eat the produce and crops ?

how is that going to work ? many forms of animals will undoubtedly want to invade crops , they always have and always will .

Realistically you will need to kill lots of them to protect your crops

[ozleicester]

Depends whether I wanted to eat them or not.

I actually support this... we have far too many people on the planet, lets farm them..fixed

[Captain...]

I know. So what you are basically arguing is that it isn't the taking of life which is wrong, but causing pain.

So if we kill an animal in a way which doesn't cause pain, then it's fine?

I think if it dies of natural causes then it is ok to eat it:

"When's dinner ready?"

"Not long now we are just waiting for Daisy to die peacefully, give it a couple of weeks."

No.. again.. read the previous... animals are sentient beings, they understand what is going on and they suffer. Plants do not,

They discussion has been had in regard to the test tube production of meat and i am supportive of that... yet meat eaters are not. It seems that killing is part of the pleasure for many.

A well balanced ecological society will take care of its self

We can adequately gas ourselves then

Again, we can eat meat that has died of natural causes?

Test-tube production does not fill me with joy, I try not eat processed meat because you don't know what is in it, so purely synthesised meat is a big no no, especially as it will be done for profit, and costs cut to increase margin where possible and in the end you will be eating something with less nutritional value than a McDonalds.

A well balanced ecological society currently doesn't exist and never will while we rule the planet, we keep every other species in check, one way or the other, for out own benefit, not eating meat will just skew the balance even further towards us, farm land will be turned into more houses and buildings.

[ozleicester]

Are you saying that farmers of vegetable and cereals etc need not take any action against animals and birds that want to eat the produce and crops ?

how is that going to work ? many forms of animals will undoubtedly want to invade crops , they always have and always will .

Realistically you will need to kill lots of them to protect your crops

It is a lonnnnnnnnnngggg trip to reach a time when the earth is entirley vegetarian, this trip may include sterilisation and population management of animals and insects. I dont have all the answers, but i tell you what... if we took the money wasted on self important chefs producing animal carcass in a myriad styles, we could work out the requirments to control possible damage from insects and animals

[Charl91]

It is a lonnnnnnnnnngggg trip to reach a time when the earth is entirley vegetarian, this trip may include sterilisation and population management of animals and insects. I dont have all the answers, but i tell you what... if we took the money wasted on self important chefs producing animal carcass in a myriad styles, we could work out the requirments to control possible damage from insects and animals

We have too many humans. The only way it could be managed is by population management of humans.

(Which I am all for, to be honest)

[ozleicester]

I think if it dies of natural causes then it is ok to eat it:

"When's dinner ready?"

"Not long now we are just waiting for Daisy to die peacefully, give it a couple of weeks."

Again, we can eat meat that has died of natural causes?

Test-tube production does not fill me with joy, I try not eat processed meat because you don't know what is in it, so purely synthesised meat is a big no no, especially as it will be done for profit, and costs cut to increase margin where possible and in the end you will be eating something with less nutritional value than a McDonalds.

A well balanced ecological society currently doesn't exist and never will while we rule the planet, we keep every other species in check, one way or the other, for out own benefit, not eating meat will just skew the balance even further towards us, farm land will be turned into more houses and buildings.

I could see the eating of an animal which has died naturally as possibly acceptable (i may need to think a little more about it). Of course that would lead to thousands of perfectly healthy animals mysteriously dropping dead just before dinner time.

[lavrentis]

We have too many humans. The only way it could be managed is by population management of humans.

(Which I am all for, to be honest)

[MooseBreath]

Im reasonably confident your raw food is carefully prepared and sliced etc. its not just a lump of raw flesh.

What's the difference between a lump and a slice?

You could catch a salmon and eat it raw by the riverside. You can kill a cow, skin it and eat its raw flesh, same with a lamb. The fresher it is the better, no preparation needed.

The only reasons we might get sick from raw meat are because our immune systems are not used it due to years of cooking it, and because with some meats there is a risk of disease.

You could go to the supermarket tonight, puck up some decent fresh cuts of pure chicken, pork, lamb and beef, eat it all raw and be absolutely fine.

[Captain...]

I could see the eating of an animal which has died naturally as possibly acceptable (i may need to think a little more about it). Of course that would lead to thousands of perfectly healthy animals mysteriously dropping dead just before dinner time.

Or circling like vultures, waiting for the fox to do our dirty work, then chase it off and feast on the savaged remains...

Changing tack slightly, what about art?

When I think of what some of these overpaid pretentious chefs do to meat, it reminds me of art, creating something beautiful on the tongue, I love food and experiencing different tastes and textures and combinations.

So where do you stand on art, some of the most provocative art has used Animals, such as Damien Hirst, but also animal products used in art, such as their skin, or wool or spider silk, or glues and resins made from hooves or even art created by animals, intentionally or otherwise.

For me what sets humans apart from animals is in art and culture, and how we can appreciate something for its beauty and not just how it helps us survive and progress as an individual and a species.

You seem like a cultured man, well for an Aussie, at what point do you believe we should censor art for its impact on animal welfare?

[Zingari]

I could see the eating of an animal which has died naturally as possibly acceptable (i may need to think a little more about it). Of course that would lead to thousands of perfectly healthy animals mysteriously dropping dead just before dinner time.

Perhaps all you need to do is redefine your understanding of death by natural causes etc.

If a cow or pig is unfortunate enough to walk infront of a man with a huge stun gun then we could just call that "death by misadventure" and hope the other poor creatures try to learn from those mistakes.

[ozleicester]

What's the difference between a lump and a slice?

You could catch a salmon and eat it raw by the riverside. You can kill a cow, skin it and eat its raw flesh, same with a lamb. The fresher it is the better, no preparation needed.

The only reasons we might get sick from raw meat are because our immune systems are not used it due to years of cooking it, and because with some meats there is a risk of disease.

You could go to the supermarket tonight, puck up some decent fresh cuts of pure chicken, pork, lamb and beef, eat it all raw and be absolutely fine.

I recomend you head on down and get yourself all the raw meat you want, that should reduce the number of people i have to reply to in this thread

[Zingari]

What's the difference between a lump and a slice?

You could catch a salmon and eat it raw by the riverside. You can kill a cow, skin it and eat its raw flesh, same with a lamb. The fresher it is the better, no preparation needed.

The only reasons we might get sick from raw meat are because our immune systems are not used it due to years of cooking it, and because with some meats there is a risk of disease.

You could go to the supermarket tonight, puck up some decent fresh cuts of pure chicken, pork, lamb and beef, eat it all raw and be absolutely fine.

Blimey moosey are you trying to kill off impressionable FT posters

[ozleicester]

Or circling like vultures, waiting for the fox to do our dirty work, then chase it off and feast on the savaged remains...

Changing tack slightly, what about art?

When I think of what some of these overpaid pretentious chefs do to meat, it reminds me of art, creating something beautiful on the tongue, I love food and experiencing different tastes and textures and combinations.

So where do you stand on art, some of the most provocative art has used Animals, such as Damien Hirst, but also animal products used in art, such as their skin, or wool or spider silk, or glues and resins made from hooves or even art created by animals, intentionally or otherwise.

For me what sets humans apart from animals is in art and culture, and how we can appreciate something for its beauty and not just how it helps us survive and progress as an individual and a species.

You seem like a cultured man, well for an Aussie, at what point do you believe we should censor art for its impact on animal welfare?

Great question Captain, thanks, i am ahuge supporter of art and especially alternative art which hopefully makes people think. Much as i am a fan of it... i cannot support the killing of another creature for what is essentially our pleasure, the same way.. even if it means changing a million minds... i could not support the killing of a human for artistic purposes.

In regard to things made from animal, glues etc... i try to avoid where possible and as ive said before i dont pretend to be perfect, at the same time i dont expect perfection from others... but, i do expect that people admit their hypocracies and dont whine about little fluffy puppies being mistreated or express horror at kittens dropped in bins.... while they happily chew on an animal that has been killed for their pleasure.

[ozleicester]

Perhaps all you need to do is redefine your understanding of death by natural causes etc.

If a cow or pig is unfortunate enough to walk infront of a man with a huge stun gun then we could just call that "death by misadventure" and hope the other poor creatures try to learn from those mistakes.

its coming right for us!!!!

http://lockerz.com/u..._us_clips_south

[lavrentis]

You have to eat meat though as it boosts your testosterone RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[AdamN]

In regard to things made from animal, glues etc... i try to avoid where possible and as ive said before i dont pretend to be perfect, at the same time i dont expect perfection from others... but, i do expect that people admit their hypocracies and dont whine about little fluffy puppies being mistreated or express horror at kittens dropped in bins.... while they happily chew on an animal that has been killed for their pleasure.

In which case, you have to apply the same rules to yourself too. Unless your existence has had absolutely no effect animal's lives then you can't profess to being less hypocritical than anyone else.

[ozleicester]

In which case, you have to apply the same rules to yourself too. Unless your existence has had absolutely no effect animal's lives then you can't profess to being less hypocritical than anyone else.

I do all i can to minimise my damage...and yes i feel guilty at not being able to be perfect, so yu are right i acknowldege my hypocrisy. and try every day to do better... you?

Tell you what... go veggie for a week or cut out one animal carcass meal a week... at least you will be doing something.