Animal rights

[ozleicester]

Ozleicester, where do you stand on the issue of spaying/neutering pets?

Obviously it is for the welfare of the species to prevent overpopulations, and thus prevent more strays and more animals having to be put down.

But clearly the act of mutilating the animal goes would go against it's rights. There are some cases in the world where neuturing humans would be a positive thing (such as controlling populations in Africa where overpopulation adds to terrible starvation and poverty, or as a way to protect the public against serial rapists/paedophiles) but human rights would never allow it. The majority of people would think such actions as evil or inhumane (including myself with the African point but not the rapist point), but the feeling isn't the same with animals - it is seen as 'necessary' for their own good.

What do you think?

In a VERY VERY long term view, we would end the concept of "pets", in the short term i support the sterilisation of animals, the last thing we need is more cats, dogs etc. and i am reminded daily of the number of feral cats and stray dogs that are wandering the streets and each of them (particularly cats) is capable of breeding after only a few months.

Im not even going to start with what is wrong with discussing how wrong the "forced"sterilisation of humans would be.

[ozleicester]

Having London Broil tonight, it's a shame this dish doesn't get more popularity over here, it's one of the best things the Yanks ever came up with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtZXOdpU1j8&feature=player_embedded#!

[The Doctor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtZXOdpU1j8&feature=player_embedded#

Don't argue with Nature.

[Captain...]

In a VERY VERY long term view, we would end the concept of "pets", in the short term i support the sterilisation of animals, the last thing we need is more cats, dogs etc. and i am reminded daily of the number of feral cats and stray dogs that are wandering the streets and each of them (particularly cats) is capable of breeding after only a few months.

Im not even going to start with what is wrong with discussing how wrong the "forced"sterilisation of humans would be.

But this where your argument gets confused, it is not ok to kill an animal, because they have rights, killing an animal is murder (which is killing a human), keeping a pet is like keeping a slave, we should adapt our lives for animals, effectively you are putting animals as equal to humans, if not better, we should adapt to them and not the other way round...

...and yet, you would be ok with forced sterilisation of animals, but to do the same to humans is so beyond wrong that you won't even discuss it.

[acooling08]

Oz must have at least one convert to vegetarianism now - I doubt Fox92 will be able to ignore a Paul McCartney video appeal.

[Guest MattP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtZXOdpU1j8&feature=player_embedded#

!

Watched the video and had a bacon sandwich, absolute naive bollocks if you think everyone would be a veggie if slaughterhouse windows were glass.

[Reynard Bleu]

I think the extremes debated so far are interesting hyperthetical discussions, but no more than that. Perhaps a more achievable aim is to ensure the highest standards of animal husbandry and provenance are the norm, ensuring our farmed animals enjoy a life free from stress and fear (unlike many of their wild cousins).....er then we kill them nicely - ish.

[ozleicester]

But this where your argument gets confused, it is not ok to kill an animal, because they have rights, killing an animal is murder (which is killing a human), keeping a pet is like keeping a slave, we should adapt our lives for animals, effectively you are putting animals as equal to humans, if not better, we should adapt to them and not the other way round...

...and yet, you would be ok with forced sterilisation of animals, but to do the same to humans is so beyond wrong that you won't even discuss it.

I dont believe it is confused, but youre entitled to your opinion, i say that killing an animal is cruel, that i dont have the right to take another creatures life, and yes... they should have rights. I have not said that pet keeping is slavery, yes we should adapt our lives to prevent cruelty to others. I, am not putting animals equal to humans, I am simply saying i dont have the right to kill another creature. Whilst sterilisation isnt ideal in my mind, if some operations or pills results in a long term goal of less animals being killed then i am supportive of it. as for the forced sterilisation of people, im happy to discuss it.. but not in this thread.

Oz must have at least one convert to vegetarianism now - I doubt Fox92 will be able to ignore a Paul McCartney video appeal.

Im not seeking converts, im discussing the cruelty and inhumane treatment of animals, how anyone deals with those issues is entirley up to them, The fear of vegetarians converting everyone raises its head again.

Watched the video and had a bacon sandwich, absolute naive bollocks if you think everyone would be a veggie if slaughterhouse windows were glass.

wow...Well, im impressed.

Thats the entirety of what you took from that video, a simple statement? and you seriously watched the entire video and felt no concerns?

I think the extremes debated so far are interesting hyperthetical discussions, but no more than that. Perhaps a more achievable aim is to ensure the highest standards of animal husbandry and provenance are the norm, ensuring our farmed animals enjoy a life free from stress and fear (unlike many of their wild cousins).....er then we kill them nicely - ish.

I agree, most interesting and challenging for me, i enjoy being forced to think and question my own opinions.

Unfortunately, animals do understand what is happening around them, they recognise and feel fear and this is one of the reasons im opposed to eating meat, these poor innocent creatures, hear the screams of the rest of their herd, they understand that suffering is occurring and they fear.

Remember, the average pig, is as intelligent as an average 3 year old human... we wouldnt treat children the way we treat animals.

the very minimum expectation is that animals are kept in reasonable conditions before they are killed...but that is a minimum, a perfectly reasonable long term goal is ending the killing of animals for our pleasure.

[OzFox]

the very minimum expectation is that animals are kept in reasonable conditions before they are killed...but that is a minimum, a perfectly reasonable long term goal is ending the killing of animals for our pleasure.

As somebody else pointed out, we're probably not all that far away from growing meat in a lab. I guess that would end the ethical debate.

I've lost count of the "I had a juicy steak/chicken drumstick/bacon sandwich last night" comments in this thread. You've cleverly flushed out the Macho-Man-lack of empathy department. And maybe a few sufferers of Nature Deficit Disorder.

For what it's worth, you've made me question my already limited consumption of meat. That book I mentioned earlier "Eating Animals" would probably push a few more people over the edge

[MooseBreath]

The McCartney video was grim, but there are many other videos about many other problems. Videos about starving children, trafficking of young women etc which are just as hard hitting. You can ask me why I still eat meat after watching the video, I can ask you why every spare moment and penny you have isn't being devoted to preventing the other serious problems we have in the world. I would expect, if we both answered totally honestly, that both of our answers would be the same.

[Jaspa]

Someone might enjoy these

[ozleicester]

The McCartney video was grim, but there are many other videos about many other problems. Videos about starving children, trafficking of young women etc which are just as hard hitting. You can ask me why I still eat meat after watching the video, I can ask you why every spare moment and penny you have isn't being devoted to preventing the other serious problems we have in the world. I would expect, if we both answered totally honestly, that both of our answers would be the same.

This topic is filled with replies from intellectually challenged people who seem to think that ive either...never seen meat, or, will be horrified and run off screaming if i see it. I understand people eating meat and i also understand the fear that change presents.

If someone watches that video and their only thought process is along the lines of.. mmm tasty meat or, ill post a pic and talk about how manly i am to be able to go to the shop and buy a piece of prekilled, cling wrapped animal carcass, well to be honest, nothing is going to make them think, they clearly do not posses the fundamental tools required for independent thought

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and the other videos etc you mention certainly affect me, to the point that i will attempt to make changes in my lifestyle if it is pointed out, for example, that my shoes are made from slave labour etc. So you are right, i dont spend every minute doing whats right.... but i at least try to change when i see whats wrong.

You are certainly correct, the horrors of the myriad problems facing the world today can be overwhelming and one of our greatest challenges in ending all or any of them... is people feeling that they cant do anything to help.

We must all recognise that anything we do... that is done for the good of others, is of some benefit, and no matter how small that benefit is, it is worth doing.

I (perhaps foolishly) believe that most people are good and when given the opportunity to help, the weaker, less fortunate, helpless etc, they will do what they can.

As ive said all along, im not perfect, i dont claim to be and dont expect it of others and whether it is, animals, kids, the enviroment, the druggie on the corner or refugees etc etc..... im just doing what i can.

[Captain...]

This topic is filled with replies from intellectually challenged people who seem to think that ive either...never seen meat, or, will be horrified and run off screaming if i see it. I understand people eating meat and i also understand the fear that change presents.

If someone watches that video and their only thought process is along the lines of.. mmm tasty meat or, ill post a pic and talk about how manly i am to be able to go to the shop and buy a piece of prekilled, cling wrapped animal carcass, well to be honest, nothing is going to make them think, they clearly do not posses the fundamental tools required for independent thought

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and the other videos etc you mention certainly affect me, to the point that i will attempt to make changes in my lifestyle if it is pointed out, for example, that my shoes are made from slave labour etc. So you are right, i dont spend every minute doing whats right.... but i at least try to change when i see whats wrong.

You are certainly correct, the horrors of the myriad problems facing the world today can be overwhelming and one of our greatest challenges in ending all or any of them... is people feeling that they cant do anything to help.

We must all recognise that anything we do... that is done for the good of others, is of some benefit, and no matter how small that benefit is, it is worth doing.

I (perhaps foolishly) believe that most people are good and when given the opportunity to help, the weaker, less fortunate, helpless etc, they will do what they can.

As ive said all along, im not perfect, i dont claim to be and dont expect it of others and whether it is, animals, kids, the enviroment, the druggie on the corner or refugees etc etc..... im just doing what i can.

Whilst I am still a meat eating neanderthal, you have certainly made me think a lot in this thread and I have very much enjoyed it, nothing excites an argumentative sod like me more, than someone with strong opinions.

I have consciously made an effort to reduce my meat intake over the years, partly for health reasons, it was very difficult in Spain though as the pig products over there are great, jamon, chorizo, morcilla, salchicha, fuet, it is just too nice, and despite the questionable animal rights in Spain, it is generally not intensively farmed, they are well looked after and locally sourced.

I do believe it is our right as beings of nature and evolution to eat meat, I don't believe we have the right to treat animals the way we do to achieve that.

I also think that it is pretty poor that Oz has to justify himself repeatedly in this thread to people too lazy to read back a bit, and believe that not being perfect means that you don't have a right to an opinion. I also really don't understand why people post pictures of meat in this thread as though to taunt him, he has stated more than once he used to eat meat, he is not offended by it.

Anyway, I hope this thread continues as it has been informative and entertaining, infotaining if you will, but I do fear all arguments have been exhausted and it will just end up like the main forum with everyone just going round and round in circles...

[Reynard Bleu]

Some veg to add a bit of balance.

Gove.bmp

[MooseBreath]

The thread has been going round in circles since about mid-july. The op has done more than his fair share to keep it going by lashing out at people who don't agree with him and generally coming across as someone who thinks being vegetarian makes him a cut above everyone else.

I'm still disappointed that we weren't allowed to discuss my theory that vegetarian traits have a lot in common with homosexual traits.

[Guest MattP]

The thread has been going round in circles since about mid-july. The op has done more than his fair share to keep it going by lashing out at people who don't agree with him and generally coming across as someone who thinks being vegetarian makes him a cut above everyone else.

Cut above?

Most vegetarians look ill.

[ozleicester]

The thread has been going round in circles since about mid-july. The op has done more than his fair share to keep it going by lashing out at people who don't agree with him and generally coming across as someone who thinks being vegetarian makes him a cut above everyone else.

I'm still disappointed that we weren't allowed to discuss my theory that vegetarian traits have a lot in common with homosexual traits.

I try to respond and comment in similar style and attitude to the person i am responding to, however, if ive lashed out and hurt you, i apologise.

"A cut above".... i guess i could appear that way, but then, i think that i am a more rational, logical and clear thinking person than, racists, homophobes, misogynists etc. so if that places me as a cut above.. then so be it.

As for your vegetarian/homosexual "theory", quite simply it is too stupid to be worthy of discussion and your intent is not to discuss (because that is akin to saying 2+2=5) it is purely a poor attempt at flaming a relatively interesting topic, which, lets be honest, for someone who hasnt enjoyed the conversation...seems to have spent a good deal of time in.

Whilst I am still a meat eating neanderthal, you have certainly made me think a lot in this thread and I have very much enjoyed it, nothing excites an argumentative sod like me more, than someone with strong opinions.

I have consciously made an effort to reduce my meat intake over the years, partly for health reasons, it was very difficult in Spain though as the pig products over there are great, jamon, chorizo, morcilla, salchicha, fuet, it is just too nice, and despite the questionable animal rights in Spain, it is generally not intensively farmed, they are well looked after and locally sourced.

I do believe it is our right as beings of nature and evolution to eat meat, I don't believe we have the right to treat animals the way we do to achieve that.

I also think that it is pretty poor that Oz has to justify himself repeatedly in this thread to people too lazy to read back a bit, and believe that not being perfect means that you don't have a right to an opinion. I also really don't understand why people post pictures of meat in this thread as though to taunt him, he has stated more than once he used to eat meat, he is not offended by it.

Anyway, I hope this thread continues as it has been informative and entertaining, infotaining if you will, but I do fear all arguments have been exhausted and it will just end up like the main forum with everyone just going round and round in circles...

[Zingari]

i'm still a bit in the dark regarding the keeping of pets ( of the meat eating variety, dogs cats etc)

Is this ok , because obviously animals would need to be kept and killed to feed them .?

Humans keep pets for "their own pleasure" , so are veggies that keep pets but refuse to eat meat because animals are not for our pleasure being hypocritical?

I agree mostly with the Captain's viewpoint btw

[ozleicester]

i'm still a bit in the dark regarding the keeping of pets ( of the meat eating variety, dogs cats etc)

Is this ok , because obviously animals would need to be kept and killed to feed them .?

No, (imo) its not ok to keep pets, as i mentioned, i have one little grumpy rescued moggie and in an ideal world i wouldnt have, because there wouldnt be animals existing simply as pleasure givers to us, but that is a long way off

Humans keep pets for "their own pleasure" , so are veggies that keep pets but refuse to eat meat because animals are not for our pleasure being hypocritical?

Yes - unless its done to prevent death etc.

I agree mostly with the Captain's viewpoint btw

It has been regularly commented in this thread that we should ensure animals are well kept until they are killed humanely, does anyone feel hypocritical when they recognise that it is impossible (excluding euthanasia etc) to "kill" humanely?

[Zingari]

Just to clarify.

You keep a dog for your own and your family's pleasure and that dog eats meat .So in effect you are vicariously keeping and killing other animals for your own pleasure , is this correct ?

But , at some unspecified point in the future you would like to see and end to the keeping of pets as well as eating meat ?

If you are prepared to give up meat on the basis of not wanting animals used for man's pleasure , I can't see why you decided to keep a meat eating pet. You mentioned an "ideal world" with regard to keeping pets , do you not think that maybe that is an impossibility even at any unspecified point in the future ?

[ozleicester]

Awwwwww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i18JYnbfc54

[Captain...]

Awwwwww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i18JYnbfc54

What you didn't see was the farmer saying, within earshot of your porcine hero there, 'so much for curried goat tonight, looks like it's pork chops'.

As for your cat, do you feed it wet cat food with meaty chunks, the dry stuff, whilst not vegetarian it isn't actual meat, or do not feed it vegetarian cat food?

If it is the wet stuff, with juicy meaty chunks, do you ever get meat cravings and it is the only meat in the house, and you just think one bite won't hurt...

[ozleicester]

Just to clarify.

You keep a dog for your own and your family's pleasure and that dog eats meat .So in effect you are vicariously keeping and killing other animals for your own pleasure , is this correct ?

No,

we have a cat. we have the cat because, had we not taken him, he wouldve been put down,. He is not kept for my pleasure, yes.. thousands of other are put down and i dont take them all so i cant make a difference to them all.. but i made a difference to that one!

And the cat (as has been addressed previously in this topic) is mostly vegetarian...4-5 days a week eats veggie food only, but i recognise his needs and provide him with some meat (infact, like humans, cats can survive on a veggie only diet, but at his age etc i think i would be cruel to completely veggify him)

But , at some unspecified point in the future you would like to see and end to the keeping of pets as well as eating meat ? Yes

If you are prepared to give up meat on the basis of not wanting animals used for man's pleasure , I can't see why you decided to keep a meat eating pet. You mentioned an "ideal world" with regard to keeping pets , do you not think that maybe that is an impossibility even at any unspecified point in the future ? No it is entirely possible and i believe (clearly not in my or my childrens lifetimes) such a world will exist. There was a time that people laughed at the concept of a world of equality for Blacks, women etc.

[Zingari]

so, basically oz , you just consider yourself as a torch bearer for a better/ideal world ?

good luck even though i don't hold out much hope

[ozleicester]

so, basically oz , you just consider yourself as a torch bearer for a better/ideal world ?

good luck even though i don't hold out much hope

Not so much a torch bearer...as just doing what i think is right. I know that you must have hope Zing... you are a Leicester supporter... you MUST have hope for a better future Actually theresa question for the ages.. what will come first... a Leicester City Champions League Cup... or a world that treats animals properly?

Oh another question for everyone... what meat wont you eat.. and why?