Animal rights

[Webbo]

Apart from the Glass Walls video on page 32 you mean? Which contains moving images that are arguably worse.

Fair enough I couldn't be bothered to watch that vid first time around so I didn't it see. That's different to putting a picture so that no one could avoid seeing it.

I'm not arguing about this any similar pictures will be deleted.

[Captain...]

Apart from the Glass Walls video on page 32 you mean? Which contains moving images that are arguably worse.

But people are free to click on that, and watch it aware of what they might see from the context of this topic and the person who posted.

That is a choice, the images you posted where not viewed through choice, they were thrust upon me and anyone else viewing this topic, out of casual interest, or for the debate, it is like posting snuff pictures, or pictures of victims of a natural disaster or war, it is not needed to make the point, and if anything invalidates it somewhat as just being sensationalism.

[OzFox]

Fair enough I couldn't be bothered to watch that vid first time around so I didn't it see. That's different to putting a picture so that no one could avoid seeing it.

But people are free to click on that, and watch it aware of what they might see from the context of this topic and the person who posted.

I wonder how many people bothered sitting through that video? I suspect most would prefer to turn a blind eye (while they tuck into a chicken sandwich)

That is a choice, the images you posted where not viewed through choice, they were thrust upon me and anyone else viewing this topic, out of casual interest, or for the debate, it is like posting snuff pictures, or pictures of victims of a natural disaster or war, it is not needed to make the point, and if anything invalidates it somewhat as just being sensationalism.

I've often wondered about that. As a Beeb employee I watched a lot of gruesome footage of humans slaughtering each other (Iraq/Bosnia/Africa etc) and we were always very careful about what we showed on air, sometimes to the point of over-sanitising. At the other end of the scale there's places which will show all manner of horrendous stuff on their lunchtime news. Spain used to be one of them.

[Captain...]

I wonder how many people bothered sitting through that video? I suspect most would prefer to turn a blind eye (while they tuck into a chicken sandwich)

I've often wondered about that. As a Beeb employee I watched a lot of gruesome footage of humans slaughtering each other (Iraq/Bosnia/Africa etc) and we were always very careful about what we showed on air, sometimes to the point of over-sanitising. At the other end of the scale there's places which will show all manner of horrendous stuff on their lunchtime news. Spain used to be one of them.

Still is, I would quite often be tucking into my lunch to be confronted by disfigured corpses, or a brutal bull related accident.

The problem is desensitising people to it, then it loses even shock value, and just becomes everyday.

Spain is an interesting example, they are all very well versed in how to butcher and chop up animals, seeing my ex going at a chicken would always make me worry about what she would do to me if I ever cheated on her.

There relationship with animals is certainly not an equal one, but it is a much closer one than we have here, every Spanish family I know has kept some animals, made their own Chorizo or Jamon, they eat a lot more off the bone and cook with the shells and skins still on, use a lot more offal, and bits we throw away, and don't sanitise everything with shrink wrapped pre packed and pre cut and even pre-cooked meat. There is also a lot less intensive farming and cruel practices in terms of raising livestock.

If anything it is less developed than the UK, but you can see the respect and the care they have for the meat, if not so much the actual animals, and for farming values, a lot of meat is locally sourced and locally sold, with there not really being a national supermarket chain in Spain, so it is a viable business for local farmers.

That may not mean much to devout animal rights, vegan warriors, but to me it is preferable.

[OzFox]

Still is, I would quite often be tucking into my lunch to be confronted by disfigured corpses, or a brutal bull related accident.

The problem is desensitising people to it, then it loses even shock value, and just becomes everyday.

Spain is an interesting example, they are all very well versed in how to butcher and chop up animals, seeing my ex going at a chicken would always make me worry about what she would do to me if I ever cheated on her.

There relationship with animals is certainly not an equal one, but it is a much closer one than we have here, every Spanish family I know has kept some animals, made their own Chorizo or Jamon, they eat a lot more off the bone and cook with the shells and skins still on, use a lot more offal, and bits we throw away, and don't sanitise everything with shrink wrapped pre packed and pre cut and even pre-cooked meat. There is also a lot less intensive farming and cruel practices in terms of raising livestock.

If anything it is less developed than the UK, but you can see the respect and the care they have for the meat, if not so much the actual animals, and for farming values, a lot of meat is locally sourced and locally sold, with there not really being a national supermarket chain in Spain, so it is a viable business for local farmers.

That may not mean much to devout animal rights, vegan warriors, but to me it is preferable.

Yeah, they're an interesting bunch the Spanish. Although I still can't get my head around how they allow a stone age event like bullfighting. I mean seriously, how can you get enjoyment out of watching a cow slowly bleed to death? I find it strangely enjoyable when the bull manages to gore one of the fvckers, or jumps into the crowd sending people scattering.

I still lean towards showing people powerful images, especially when it comes to animals who are largely defenceless. The programme I work for published shocking footage from inside Indonesian abattoirs last year. People were so outraged when they saw it, the live export industry from Australia to Indonesia was shut down almost overnight. Had we not shown the really gruesome stuff, I'm not sure that would have happened. One of the most powerful images was that of a cow, last in line for slaughter, shivering in fear watching it's mates being carved up with a blunt, rusty knife. Viewers seemed to be particularly appalled by that.

Anyway, I posted those pooch pics to make Moosebreath think twice before tucking into his next penis. I don't hold out much hope.

[Guest MattP]

Yeah, they're an interesting bunch the Spanish. Although I still can't get my head around how they allow a stone age event like bullfighting. I mean seriously, how can you get enjoyment out of watching a cow slowly bleed to death? I find it strangely enjoyable when the bull manages to gore one of the fvckers, or jumps into the crowd sending people scattering.

I still lean towards showing people powerful images, especially when it comes to animals who are largely defenceless. The programme I work for published shocking footage from inside Indonesian abattoirs last year. People were so outraged when they saw it, the live export industry from Australia to Indonesia was shut down almost overnight. Had we not shown the really gruesome stuff, I'm not sure that would have happened. One of the most powerful images was that of a cow, last in line for slaughter, shivering in fear watching it's mates being carved up with a blunt, rusty knife. Viewers seemed to be particularly appalled by that.

Anyway, I posted those pooch pics to make Moosebreath think twice before tucking into his next penis. I don't hold out much hope.

I went to the Bullfighting in Fuengirola a few years back, was absolutely fantastic.

Not only was it a wonderful demonstration of skill from the Matador's on show but it really did make you realise how stupid animals are. I didn't agree with the slow death they gave them mind, the sword should be done a lot quicker than they did it. Still loved it though and would go again.

[James.]

I went to the Bullfighting in Fuengirola a few years back, was absolutely fantastic.

Not only was it a wonderful demonstration of skill from the Matador's on show but it really did make you realise how stupid animals are. I didn't agree with the slow death they gave them mind, the sword should be done a lot quicker than they did it. Still loved it though and would go again.

Really? Is the animal "stupid" or has it just been treated horifically in the run up to the "fight".

This is taken from http://www.stopbullfighting.org.uk/facts.htm so I have no idea how true it is but it's not the first time I've heard these sort of criticisms. How you could go after reading this is beyond me to be honest...

The bull is not an aggressive animal, and the reason he is angry and attempts to charge at the matador whilst in the bullring is mainly because he has been horrendously abused for the previous two days. In fact, what spectators see is not a normal, healthy bull, but a weakened, half-blinded and mentally destroyed version, whose chances of harming his tormentors is virtually nil. The bull has wet newspapers stuffed into his ears; vaseline is rubbed into his eyes to blur his vision; cotton is stuffed up his nostrils to cut off his respiration and a needle is stuck into his genitals. Also, a strong caustic solution is rubbed onto his legs which throws him off balance. This also keeps him from lying down on the ground. In addition to this, drugs are administered to pep him up or slow him down, and strong laxatives are added to his feed to further incapacitate him. He is kept in a dark box for a couple of days before he faces the ring: the purpose of this is to disorientate him. When he is let out of the box, he runs desperately towards the light at the end of the tunnel. He thinks that at last his suffering is over and he is being set free — instead, he runs into the bullring to face his killers and a jeering mob.

[Webbo]

I wonder how many people bothered sitting through that video? I suspect most would prefer to turn a blind eye (while they tuck into a chicken sandwich)

I wasn't a case of turning a blind eye, it was the fact that I find the subject extremely boring. I have been inside a slaughterhouse.I've seen a pig hanging up with it's throat cut and I've watched as their guts are sliced open and all their insides spill out. Believe me if you think the videos are bad you want to try the smell.

I still eat pork,beef,chicken,lamb and if I went to China I'd probably try dog.

[Guest MattP]

Really? Is the animal "stupid" or has it just been treated horifically in the run up to the "fight".

This is taken from http://www.stopbullf...rg.uk/facts.htm so I have no idea how true it is but it's not the first time I've heard these sort of criticisms. How you could go after reading this is beyond me to be honest...

The bull is not an aggressive animal, and the reason he is angry and attempts to charge at the matador whilst in the bullring is mainly because he has been horrendously abused for the previous two days. In fact, what spectators see is not a normal, healthy bull, but a weakened, half-blinded and mentally destroyed version, whose chances of harming his tormentors is virtually nil. The bull has wet newspapers stuffed into his ears; vaseline is rubbed into his eyes to blur his vision; cotton is stuffed up his nostrils to cut off his respiration and a needle is stuck into his genitals. Also, a strong caustic solution is rubbed onto his legs which throws him off balance. This also keeps him from lying down on the ground. In addition to this, drugs are administered to pep him up or slow him down, and strong laxatives are added to his feed to further incapacitate him. He is kept in a dark box for a couple of days before he faces the ring: the purpose of this is to disorientate him. When he is let out of the box, he runs desperately towards the light at the end of the tunnel. He thinks that at last his suffering is over and he is being set free — instead, he runs into the bullring to face his killers and a jeering mob.

Yeah I've never heard that before, I'm not going to take anything as the truth froma website that is going to be as biased at that. The last line makes me want to get the violins it it's that much of a pathetic attempt to gain some sympathy. Amazing how they managed to get into the mind of an animal.

Besides I got charged at by a bull as a child. He didn't need any encouragement.

Got to say I'm pissing myself at the way that website is written mind, it's like a Daily Mail for Animal Rights activists. "The sordid assistant", "which characterises the beginning of the horror"

"The vast majority of tourists are appalled by what happens at a bullfight and leave after they see what happens to the first bull" - what an absolute load of bullshit, I didn't see a single person leave until the end in a 5,000 arena.

[James.]

Yeah I've never heard that before, I'm not going to take anything as the truth froma website that is going to be as biased at that. The last line makes me want to get the violins it it's that much of a pathetic attempt tp gain some sympathy.

Besides I got charged at by a bull as a child. He didn't need any encouragement.

Find it pretty odd you're perfectly happy to dismiss a website and not even consider there might be any truth in some of those claims because a bull once charged you as a child.

You do realise how remarkably silly that is right?

Surely before charging head long into another bull fight when you're next in Spain you might want to do some research? There's no smoke without fire and it's pretty much common knowledge that bulls are treated horrendously and drugged up before going in the ring. It's about as unfair a "fight" as you can get. But yeah, great entertainment... hmm.

[Guest MattP]

Find it pretty odd you're perfectly happy to dismiss a website and not even consider there might be any truth in some of those claims because a bull once charged you as a child.

You do realise how remarkably silly that is right?

Surely before charging head long into another bull fight when you're next in Spain you might want to do some research? There's no smoke without fire and it's pretty much common knowledge that bulls are treated horrendously and drugged up before going in the ring. It's about as unfair a "fight" as you can get. But yeah, great entertainment... hmm.

The way the website is written reminds of the same lunatics who want to remove National Hunt from our culture here. And how dare they claim to speak for "most tourists who have ever been to a bullfight"

They don't seem too drugged up when they enter, you want to see the speed and reactions of them. Thats why they need slowing down via the drugs before the kill.

[Guest MattP]

And as for this well someone should be prosecuted for this sort of behaviour. How dare they threaten someone's personal safety like that?

Frank Evans from Manchester who runs a bedroom and kitchen showroom in Eccles called “Ladyline†is a bullfighter who regularly travels to Spain to torture bulls to death. This is another reason why bullfighting is an issue for the British Animal Rights movement.

The Anti-Bullfighting Committee, P.O. Box 175, Liverpool L69 8DX has started a campaign against Evans by demonstrating and leafletting outside his shop and his house. Anyone interested in joining this campaign should contact this address. Also, anyone wishing to express their views on Evans’ activities should write to him at:

19 Monks Hall Grove,

Eccles, Manchester

[James.]

You do make me laugh Matt. To paraphrase...

"It was definitely Liverpool fans fault, my close family were there and they said so"

"The bull isn't drugged up, when I was there it looked well quick"

"Bulls are aggressive, one charged at me when I was younger"

lol

It's impossible to have a proper debate on these sort of topics to be honest as you'll use some spurious anecdote as proof of your argument. I spent about 5 minutes looking around online and found numerous articles discussing the drugging of bulls before bull fights.

Do you think it's a fair fight?

[Guest MattP]

You do make me laugh Matt. To paraphrase...

"It was definitely Liverpool fans fault, my close family were there and they said so"

"The bull isn't drugged up, when I was there it looked well quick"

"Bulls are aggressive, one charged at me when I was younger"

lol

It's impossible to have a proper debate on these sort of topics to be honest as you'll use some spurious anecdote as proof of your argument. I spent about 5 minutes looking around online and found numerous articles discussing the drugging of bulls before bull fights.

Do you think it's a fair fight?

I do rely on personal experience too much, I'll agree with you there, don't misquote mind, even more so on a subject as sensative as the one you mentioned, I said "I heard some things happened that some of the papers said were true", that's a massive difference from "It was definately the Liverpool fans fault",

Is it a fair fight?, nope to be honest I don't want to see a fair fight, I went to watch a different sport of a different culture and enjoy some of that nations most finest sportsmen do what they do best. I really enjoyed it and then enjoyed eating the product outside the stadium.

I actually think I'm probably in a better position to judge for myself about it rather than people sat thousands of miles away who read an internet site that is dedicated to completely stopping the practice of it.

[Guest MattP]

I put this in the other thread and it's too good to only use one.

[OzFox]

I wasn't a case of turning a blind eye, it was the fact that I find the subject extremely boring. I have been inside a slaughterhouse.I've seen a pig hanging up with it's throat cut and I've watched as their guts are sliced open and all their insides spill out. Believe me if you think the videos are bad you want to try the smell.

I still eat pork,beef,chicken,lamb and if I went to China I'd probably try dog.

I bet the pig didn't find it boring. Whatever floats your boat I guess. Some people have empathy towards suffering animals, and some don't.

[OzFox]

I put this in the other thread and it's too good to only use one.

Ah. Another member of the macho meathead club. Nice one.

[Guest MattP]

Ah. Another member of the macho meathead club. Nice one.

You see this is why your movement never gets any respect and I just laugh at it. You actually consider people that engage in behaviour that we have done since the start of time as some form of lower being than you.

Those big teeth at the back of your mouth? Not for you to munch on salad.

What meats have you actually tried?

[OzFox]

You see this is why your movement never gets any respect and I just laugh at it. You actually consider people that engage in behaviour that we have done since the start of time as some form of lower being than you.

Those big teeth at the back of your mouth? Not for you to munch on salad.

What meats have you actually tried?

Like a red rag to a bull.

I just think posting pictures of steaks on an animal rights thread is a bit insensitive and gormless, not that you're the only one doing it.

And I can't vouch for your mouth but I've got molars at the back of mine. I'm pretty sure they're for grinding food up...any food including salads.

[Guest MattP]

Like a red rag to a bull.

I just think posting pictures of steaks on an animal rights thread is a bit insensitive and gormless, not that you're the only one doing it.

And I can't vouch for your mouth but I've got molars at the back of mine. I'm pretty sure they're for grinding food up...any food including salads.

Answer me.

[OzFox]

Answer me.

Steak, lamb, roo, koala.....all the usual Aussie stuff. What's your point?

[Guest MattP]

Steak, lamb, roo, koala.....all the usual Aussie stuff. What's your point?

I'm trying to find when your turning point was.

What happened?

[Kitchandro]

Like a red rag to a bull.

I just think posting pictures of steaks on an animal rights thread is a bit insensitive and gormless, not that you're the only one doing it.

And I can't vouch for your mouth but I've got molars at the back of mine. I'm pretty sure they're for grinding food up...any food including salads.

Oh no, so insensitive! What if a little piggy or a cow were to stumble upin this thread? They'd be scarred for life!

Seriously though, 37 pages over a few months for freakin animals?

[Jaspa]

What has happened to Australians ?

They managed to eat an entire species to extinction, and now they berate and guilt trip people on the other side of the world for eating Cattle and Poultry

[OzFox]

I'm trying to find when your turning point was.

What happened?

When Moosebreath mentioned the dog penis.

No seriously, I've seen too much abattoir and factory farm stuff that really sickens me. By that I mean poor conditions, deliberate torture, animals dying slowly and painfully etc. I just don't think we have a right to do that sort of shit.

Oh no, so insensitive! What if a little piggy or a cow were to stumble upin this thread? They'd be scarred for life!

Seriously though, 37 pages over a few months for freakin animals?

Beats talking about Beckford. You should try it.