Animal rights

[Kitchandro]

When Moosebreath mentioned the dog penis.

No seriously, I've seen too much abattoir and factory farm stuff that really sickens me. By that I mean poor conditions, deliberate torture, animals dying slowly and painfully etc. I just don't think we have a right to do that sort of shit.

Beats talking about Beckford. You should try it.

Fortunately I've been avoiding Beckford threads like the plague for the past few weeks, and I can honestly say I'm much better off for it

It's given me more time to explore other threads like the one about steakhouses.

[OzFox]

What has happened to Australians ?

They managed to eat an entire species to extinction, and now they berate and guilt trip people on the other side of the world for eating Cattle and Poultry

Are you on about dodos again? I don't think they lived in australia.

Aussies are good at extinctions though. They've bowled over more mammals than anybody else

[ozleicester]

http://www.theage.co...0927-26n7h.html

Cue the racists excuses etc

[ozleicester]

I went to the Bullfighting in Fuengirola a few years back, was absolutely fantastic.

Not only was it a wonderful demonstration of skill from the Matador's on show but it really did make you realise how stupid animals are. I didn't agree with the slow death they gave them mind, the sword should be done a lot quicker than they did it. Still loved it though and would go again.

This is so pathetic i nearly didnt bother to respond, but its level of stupidity deserves comment.

"Demonstration of skill"... then you mention how stupid the animal is.

If the torturer was competing against something of equal intellect and skill...lets say another human, then winning could possibly be considered an achievement, but being able to outwit something or someone that is clearly less intelligent and less capable really is not something to be proud of.. much like me discussing this with you.

You enjoy the barbaric torture and death of another living creature, do you at no point wonder if all is right inside your head?

[Captain...]

This is so pathetic i nearly didnt bother to respond, but its level of stupidity deserves comment.

"Demonstration of skill"... then you mention how stupid the animal is.

If the torturer was competing against something of equal intellect and skill...lets say another human, then winning could possibly be considered an achievement, but being able to outwit something or someone that is clearly less intelligent and less capable really is not something to be proud of.. much like me discussing this with you.

You enjoy the barbaric torture and death of another living creature, do you at no point wonder if all is right inside your head?

But bullfighting is not a fight in the technical sense, it is not a man fighting bull, it is man showing mastery of the creature, showing control over a wild savage animal to get it to act and behave how he wants and showing bravery and bravado.

I am not justifying the treatment of the bull up until that point, but when it is the matador pirouetting and allowing the bull to brush past him with the horns, it is skill.

Then they kill it, which again is a skill.

It is not a fight it is a dance, a brutal bloody and macabre dance, but it is not completely without merit.

[ozleicester]

But bullfighting is not a fight in the technical sense, it is not a man fighting bull, it is man showing mastery of the creature, showing control over a wild savage animal to get it to act and behave how he wants and showing bravery and bravado.

I am not justifying the treatment of the bull up until that point, but when it is the matador pirouetting and allowing the bull to brush past him with the horns, it is skill.

Then they kill it, which again is a skill.

It is not a fight it is a dance, a brutal bloody and macabre dance, but it is not completely without merit.

"The term merit constitutes a desirable trait or ability belonging to a person or (sometimes) an object".

An intellectually superior creature armed with a weapon and supported by thousands of other creatures, tortures an (acknowledged) less intelligent creature, placed in an alien enviroment, while dancing and laughing and then eventually causes it a slow and agonising death.

Sorry.. there is NO merit in that

[Reynard Bleu]

Aussies are good at extinctions though. They've bowled over more mammals than anybody else

Oh no not the ickle fishes too?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19739596

[Captain...]

"The term merit constitutes a desirable trait or ability belonging to a person or (sometimes) an object".

An intellectually superior creature armed with a weapon and supported by thousands of other creatures, tortures an (acknowledged) less intelligent creature, placed in an alien enviroment, while dancing and laughing and then eventually causes it a slow and agonising death.

Sorry.. there is NO merit in that

There is no laughing, it is a very serious event, with a lot of tradition, and skill.

I understand all the complaints about it and your side of the argument, but you don't understand the other side of it.

I don't dispute any of the claims made about how bulls are treated, but I would like to see more evidence than a biased animal rights piece, and I don't dispute that that it is barbaric and cruel, but it is a contest of man vs beast, a display of bravery and skill, whilst risking their own lives. It is like any sport, a demonstration of skill and mastery within a particular field, it is hard to explain as I have only been once, and I can't deny I was upset by some of the things I saw, but I could set that aside and understand the point of it, the art of it, the skill in it. When the matador and the bull stare each other down eye to eye, the bull stamps it feet and charges, a spin and a twist and the bull brushes past the matador smearing blood down his side, it is impressive (the fact he is bleeding because he has been stabbed repeatedly with spears in the part before that isn't as wholesome). Of the 6 fights we saw the last one was the most impressive, you could see the skill of the matador, and even the killing strike was executed perfectly a thrust and a twist and the bull died instantly.

[Mark_w]

I don't dispute that that it is barbaric and cruel.

Does anything else you've said really matter then?

[Zingari]

Jeremy Kyle show is cruel and barbaric

[Captain...]

Does anything else you've said really matter then?

No it doesn't, you are right, lets not try and understand and see merit in culture, lets just dismiss it, and them as barbaric savages.

[James.]

I don't dispute any of the claims made about how bulls are treated, but I would like to see more evidence than a biased animal rights piece, and I don't dispute that that it is barbaric and cruel, but it is a contest of man vs beast, a display of bravery and skill, whilst risking their own lives.

I was about to ask you, as someone who has lived in Spain, whether you thought there was any truth in the statements from that website I posted a link to. I mentioned at the time that I didn't know how true they were but at the same time it's quite well documented elsewhere that drugging, for example, is prevalent.

Have the bulls always been drugged or is this a recent phenomenon that reflects on a decline in skill or bravery of the matadors?

Cultural merit is fine if the activity stays true to its historic roots.

Also would be interesting to know if the Spanish are actually bothered about bullfighting or is it just the tourists? Maybe it's less about culture and more about making a few quid from holidaymakers and playing up to a stereotype for financial gain. In which case the argument against becomes a lot stronger.

[Mark_w]

No it doesn't, you are right, lets not try and understand and see merit in culture, lets just dismiss it, and them as barbaric savages.

If it's barbaric and cruel then culture should go out the window, lot's of things that were 'part of the culture' have been stopped because they're barbaric. Should they bring back Fox hunting because it was part of the culture? How about slavery, is that ok because it was part of the culture?

If it's cruel, then keeping it because it's part of the culture is a lousy excuse, in this case for continuing to slaughter innocent creatures for entertainment.

[cambridgefox]

Are you on about dodos again? I don't think they lived in australia.

Aussies are good at extinctions though. They've bowled over more mammals than anybody else

They didn't bowl over many in the Ashes!

[Captain...]

I was about to ask you, as someone who has lived in Spain, whether you thought there was any truth in the statements from that website I posted a link to. I mentioned at the time that I didn't know how true they were but at the same time it's quite well documented elsewhere that drugging, for example, is prevalent.

Have the bulls always been drugged or is this a recent phenomenon that reflects on a decline in skill or bravery of the matadors?

Cultural merit is fine if the activity stays true to its historic roots.

Also would be interesting to know if the Spanish are actually bothered about bullfighting or is it just the tourists? Maybe it's less about culture and more about making a few quid from holidaymakers and playing up to a stereotype for financial gain. In which case the argument against becomes a lot stronger.

It is certainly not a touristy thing, in Valencia it is very popular with the locals and a lot of people buy season tickets, the matadors are truly revered, and are bigger celebrities than footballers, in some areas.

As for the treatment of Bulls, I know that fighting bulls are treated very well when being raised and are certainly treated much better than dairy cows here (and male dairy cows which are slaughtered at birth). As for what happens to them immediately before the fight, I disagree they are kept locked in small dark pens for days before the fight, as they are often paraded through the street, and in Pamplona I know that they are kept in open pens on the edge of the city, as you can see them there.

The other accusations I can neither confirm or deny, it is most likely that they have been practised or are practised by a few, but it is not the norm.

People often get confused with treatment of bulls bred for fighting, and those that are used for running in the street with them, I don't mean Pamplona here, but many towns and villages will often hire a few bulls to let loose in the street, these are not professionals, so it is more likely they will drug the bull or inhibit it somehow, as there are normally all ages from kids to old men, and they run around chase it pull its tale, it is very bizarre.

They also have a night version, where at midnight they release a black bull into the street, but so you can see it, they have like a small metal cage with a firelighters inside strung between it's horns, this is not good for the bull because it spits out little flames and sparks and can often blind the bull.

[ozleicester]

I don't dispute that that it is barbaric and cruel,

(the fact he is bleeding because he has been stabbed repeatedly with spears in the part before that isn't as wholesome).

you could see the skill of the matador, and even the killing strike was executed perfectly a thrust and a twist and the bull died instantly.

No it doesn't, you are right, lets not try and understand and see merit in culture, lets just dismiss it, and them as barbaric savages.

Dont kid yourself, there is no merit in this torture.

for fvcks sake i cannot beleive that this is even able to be debated.

Just so we all understand this... you support the torture and killing of bulls... FOR... YOUR... PLEASURE

[Kitchandro]

I can't say I agree with bull fighting tbh. Killing animals for food is one thing but doing it just for the 'sport' of torturing/killing it is a bit neanderthal, regardless of how much skill it requires.

I mean, how is bull fighting any better than putting a cat in a bin?

[OzFox]

Oh no not the ickle fishes too?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...d-asia-19739596

I guess the ickle surfers are frightened

[Captain...]

Dont kid yourself, there is no merit in this torture.

for fvcks sake i cannot beleive that this is even able to be debated.

Just so we all understand this... you support the torture and killing of bulls... FOR... YOUR... PLEASURE

I didn't say I support, I said I can see it's cultural value and merit, I went to one event 5 years ago, which had 6 fights, I found it very interesting, and disturbing in equal measures, but I have made an attempt to understand it, and have an opinion on it based on that. I have never been back, but that is not to say I never will.

I understand those that do enjoy and can objectively see its merit, but if I was in Spain and there was a vote, and I was able to vote in it, I would vote for it to be banned, and for a less barbaric alternative to be found, for example in portugal they have bull fights but without killing the bull in the arena, in spain they have recortades:

Which does not involve killing or injuring the bull, the bull may even enjoy it, I am sure it will offend some animal rights sensibilities, but to me this is harmless.

There are other events I have seen where you need to remove tags from the bull instead of stab it with spears.

I can appreciate the cultural significance and the artistry despite the brutality not because of it, and if what was made more wholesome I would support it, at the moment I do not, but this goes back to the question I asked a few weeks ago about animal rights in art and culture, are some of the cave paintings less impressive to you because they used animal blood in their paint, or Damien Hirst's animals in formaldehyde, should these be destroyed as obscenities?

Culture and art is what sets us apart from animals, and it shouldn't be dismissed so easily.

[Mark_w]

Culture and art is what sets us apart from animals, and it shouldn't be dismissed so easily.

This isn't 'art' and it's a part of the culture that if it does 'set us apart from animals' doesn't do it in a positive way. Surely if we're 'Cruel', 'Barbaric' and 'Brutal' to innocent creatures, just for our own entertainment that doesn't help paint the picture that we're a cultured, civillised, society. Animals do suffer, and if you think the fact that people have done it for generations is a good enough excuse, whether you're 'for' or 'against' it, to keep killing them for entertainment then you baffle me.

[Guest MattP]

This is so pathetic i nearly didnt bother to respond, but its level of stupidity deserves comment.

"Demonstration of skill"... then you mention how stupid the animal is.

If the torturer was competing against something of equal intellect and skill...lets say another human, then winning could possibly be considered an achievement, but being able to outwit something or someone that is clearly less intelligent and less capable really is not something to be proud of.. much like me discussing this with you.

You enjoy the barbaric torture and death of another living creature, do you at no point wonder if all is right inside your head?

The fact you mentioned "people laughing" at the show really does show how much you know about it or how close you have ever been to a Bullring.

Pisspoor effort.

[Guest MattP]

There is no laughing, it is a very serious event, with a lot of tradition, and skill.

I understand all the complaints about it and your side of the argument, but you don't understand the other side of it.

I don't dispute any of the claims made about how bulls are treated, but I would like to see more evidence than a biased animal rights piece, and I don't dispute that that it is barbaric and cruel, but it is a contest of man vs beast, a display of bravery and skill, whilst risking their own lives. It is like any sport, a demonstration of skill and mastery within a particular field, it is hard to explain as I have only been once, and I can't deny I was upset by some of the things I saw, but I could set that aside and understand the point of it, the art of it, the skill in it. When the matador and the bull stare each other down eye to eye, the bull stamps it feet and charges, a spin and a twist and the bull brushes past the matador smearing blood down his side, it is impressive (the fact he is bleeding because he has been stabbed repeatedly with spears in the part before that isn't as wholesome). Of the 6 fights we saw the last one was the most impressive, you could see the skill of the matador, and even the killing strike was executed perfectly a thrust and a twist and the bull died instantly.

The problem I had with the article that was posted up was that half of it was clearly made up so why would I be inclined to believe the other half.

"The vast majority of tourists leave after seeing the cruelty of the first fight" was mentioned, never have I read so much bollocks in my life, completely untrue and not a shred of evidence to support it, so whilst they write out nonsense like that I'm not going to believe anything else they claim.

[Guest MattP]

If it's barbaric and cruel then culture should go out the window, lot's of things that were 'part of the culture' have been stopped because they're barbaric. Should they bring back Fox hunting because it was part of the culture? How about slavery, is that ok because it was part of the culture?

If it's cruel, then keeping it because it's part of the culture is a lousy excuse, in this case for continuing to slaughter innocent creatures for entertainment.

Yeah Fox Hunting should be allowed back, it was a class driven bill passed through parliament by people who live in cities who have no idea of the history and traditions of the British countryside.

[OzFox]

I was going to post those classic photos of matador Julio Aparicio getting his just deserts. But then I thought of Webbo's blood pressure and all those allegedly squeamish teenies on here. So here's the link instead.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1280469/Spanish-bullfighter-gored-Matador-Julio-Aparicio-narrowly-escapes-death.html

From a purely aesthetic point of view, they are amazing photographs.

It didn't end well sadly. The bull was quickly dispatched by not one but two brave matadors, and the scumbag highly skilled sportsman lived to fight again just ten weeks later, minus part of his tongue and several teeth.

[marty78]

I was going to post those classic photos of matador Julio Aparicio getting his just deserts. But then I thought of Webbo's blood pressure and all those allegedly squeamish teenies on here. So here's the link instead.

http://www.dailymail...apes-death.html

From a purely aesthetic point of view, they are amazing photographs.

It didn't end well sadly. The bull was quickly dispatched by not one but two brave matadors, and the scumbag highly skilled sportsman lived to fight again just ten weeks later, minus part of his tongue and several teeth.

I know people who would pay for a piercing like that.