Animal rights

[OzFox]

I know people who would pay for a piercing like that.

I swear if you look close you can see his teeth flying through the air.

[Captain...]

This isn't 'art' and it's a part of the culture that if it does 'set us apart from animals' doesn't do it in a positive way. Surely if we're 'Cruel', 'Barbaric' and 'Brutal' to innocent creatures, just for our own entertainment that doesn't help paint the picture that we're a cultured, civillised, society. Animals do suffer, and if you think the fact that people have done it for generations is a good enough excuse, whether you're 'for' or 'against' it, to keep killing them for entertainment then you baffle me.

First you would need to provide a definition of art, before you dismiss this as not being so.

I suggest you read my post again before putting more words in my mouth, all I am saying is there is a lot more to bull fighting than sensationalist pictures and inaccurate one sided reports on animal cruelty.

[Guest MattP]

I was going to post those classic photos of matador Julio Aparicio getting his just deserts. But then I thought of Webbo's blood pressure and all those allegedly squeamish teenies on here. So here's the link instead.

http://www.dailymail...apes-death.html

From a purely aesthetic point of view, they are amazing photographs.

It didn't end well sadly. The bull was quickly dispatched by not one but two brave matadors, and the scumbag highly skilled sportsman lived to fight again just ten weeks later, minus part of his tongue and several teeth.

Obviously didn't drug, torture, blind, anal rape, crucify, beat, shit on, behead and keep that one locked up long enough.

[Mark_w]

At least that evil Bull got what it deserved in the end, that poor man, just trying to get on with his job before being so heinously attacked by that beast. The poor guy could be traumatised by that for the rest of his long, long, life. Don't see why the Bulls can't just respect our culture.

[ozleicester]

I didn't say I support, I said I can see it's cultural value and merit, I went to one event 5 years ago, which had 6 fights, I found it very interesting, and disturbing in equal measures, but I have made an attempt to understand it, and have an opinion on it based on that. I have never been back, but that is not to say I never will.

I understand those that do enjoy and can objectively see its merit, but if I was in Spain and there was a vote, and I was able to vote in it, I would vote for it to be banned, and for a less barbaric alternative to be found, for example in portugal they have bull fights but without killing the bull in the arena, in spain they have recortades:

Which does not involve killing or injuring the bull, the bull may even enjoy it, I am sure it will offend some animal rights sensibilities, but to me this is harmless.

There are other events I have seen where you need to remove tags from the bull instead of stab it with spears.

I can appreciate the cultural significance and the artistry despite the brutality not because of it, and if what was made more wholesome I would support it, at the moment I do not, but this goes back to the question I asked a few weeks ago about animal rights in art and culture, are some of the cave paintings less impressive to you because they used animal blood in their paint, or Damien Hirst's animals in formaldehyde, should these be destroyed as obscenities?

Culture and art is what sets us apart from animals, and it shouldn't be dismissed so easily.

Put simply, you went along and watched torture, you enjoyed it enough to suggest you will go back and watch torture again.

The fact you mentioned "people laughing" at the show really does show how much you know about it or how close you have ever been to a Bullring.

Pisspoor effort.

This group seem quite depressed and solem dont they.

[Captain...]

At least that evil Bull got what it deserved in the end, that poor man, just trying to get on with his job before being so heinously attacked by that beast. The poor guy could be traumatised by that for the rest of his long, long, life. Don't see why the Bulls can't just respect our culture.

Don't be a dick, nobody has any sympathy for the matador, they know the risks, that is part of the thrill, if things like this didn't happen then bullfighting would lose part of its appeal.

[Captain...]

Put simply, you went along and watched torture, you enjoyed it enough to suggest you will go back and watch torture again.

This group seem quite depressed and solem dont they.

Does eating veggies cause an inability to understand English, that is not what I said, I went out of curiosity and with an open mind, I have not been back, not because I haven't had the opportunity, but because I have not wanted to, but that doesn't mean I never will, although I do doubt it.

[Guest MattP]

This group seem quite depressed and solem dont they.

What?

Who said anything about being solem and depressed, there is a bit of a gap inbetween depression and laughing your tits off.

You aren't actually reading what people are saying here, just like that website that was posted up you are taking peoples words and then throwing them out as something completely different to try and support your argument.

[ozleicester]

What?

Who said anything about being solem and depressed, there is a bit of a gap inbetween depression and laughing your tits off.

You aren't actually reading what people are saying here, just like that website that was posted up you are taking peoples words and then throwing them out as something completely different to try and support your argument.

Look at the picture.. there are people laughing ... and THAT is what i said...and THAT is what the picture shows

[ozleicester]

Does eating veggies cause an inability to understand English, that is not what I said, I went out of curiosity and with an open mind, I have not been back, not because I haven't had the opportunity, but because I have not wanted to, but that doesn't mean I never will, although I do doubt it.

You watched torture... and you will consider watching it again. This is what you have implied. You were not offended enough that you wont go again...in fact you were interested enough to consider going back.

You may wish to hide inside semantics... but if you have wattched a innocent creature get tortured to death and can still consider doing it again and you pay the money, you support the torture

[Guest MattP]

Look at the picture.. there are people laughing ... and THAT is what i said...and THAT is what the picture shows

The picture hasn't shown up.

[Guest MattP]

You watched torture... and you will consider watching it again. This is what you have implied. You were not offended enough that you wont go again.

So going to the Bullfighting means you HAVE to be offended otherwise you openly support torture.

I've heard it all now, this thread should have died a quicker death than one Cesar Jiminez could produce.

[Mark_w]

Don't be a dick, nobody has any sympathy for the matador, they know the risks, that is part of the thrill, if things like this didn't happen then bullfighting would lose part of its appeal.

I ****ing hope no one has any sympathy with them or the person in question. Considering they're participating in organised murder, of an innocent animal, that really suffers, for the enjoyment of other 'civilised' people. Frankly it's a shame the death rate for the people involved isn't higher.

[ozleicester]

So going to the Bullfighting means you HAVE to be offended otherwise you openly support torture.

I've heard it all now, this thread should have died a quicker death than one Cesar Jiminez could produce.

Yes... and the fact that you dont understand that, is incredibly disturbing

[Mark_w]

So going to the Bullfighting means you HAVE to be offended otherwise you openly support torture.

...well in that you're funding torture, yes. I suppose you are supporting torture.

[21st Century Fox]

Where does everyone stand on Bear Baiting, that was fun, right?

[Guest MattP]

Yes... and the fact that you dont understand that, is incredibly disturbing

It's not though is it, just have a watch of this video, don't worry there is no kill in it.

Just watch the skill, style and grace of the Matador, how beautful they look and move, the poise of them under such pressure. His move on 0.43 is stunning.

I find it disturbing anyone can see something so beautiful as torture.

[OzFox]

Where does everyone stand on Bear Baiting, that was fun, right?

Still is fun....in Pakistan

[ozleicester]

Speaking of boxing.... let me put a theory to you....

Two men enter a boxing ring, one bounces in, light on his feet dancing...highly trained, highly skilled and the darling of the crowd. The other, much bigger but, intellectually disabled, forced into the ring not really understanding why he is there.

the two men are then set to fight... oh and the first man apart from his obvious physical and mental benefits.. also has a weapon.

How do ypou feel about this boxing match?

[ozleicester]

It's not though is it, just have a watch of this video, don't worry there is no kill in it.

Just watch the skill, style and grace of the Matador, how beautful they look and move, the poise of them under such pressure.

I find it disturbing anyone can see something so beautiful as torture.

Im not going to watch it, as the torment of the animal isnt just in the physical damage... but i assume the torturer is avoiding being hit by the bull?

if thats the case, just put a guy on a motor bike and let the torturer avoid being run over... same (in fact probably greater) skill required... and no need to harm others.

[Guest MattP]

Speaking of boxing.... let me put a theory to you....

Two men enter a boxing ring, one bounces in, light on his feet dancing...highly trained, highly skilled and the darling of the crowd. The other, much bigger but, intellectually disabled, forced into the ring not really understanding why he is there.

the two men are then set to fight... oh and the first man apart from his obvious physical and mental benefits.. also has a weapon.

How do ypou feel about this boxing match?

To compare you would have to consider animals rights on a par with humans which the vast majority of people don't. I have seen many a mismatch in the Boxing ring that shouldn't have happened mind, although another beautiful sport, ballet for men.

Watch the video, tell me you aren't impressed.

[ozleicester]

To compare you would have to consider animals rights on a par with humans which the vast majority of people don't. I have seen many a mismatch in the Boxing ring that shouldn't have happened mind, although another beautiful sport, ballet for men.

Watch the video, tell me you aren't impressed.

No they dont have to be on a par... just simple that cruelty exists.

I will not be watching the video as i will not support torture.

[Captain...]

You watched torture... and you will consider watching it again. This is what you have implied. You were not offended enough that you wont go again...in fact you were interested enough to consider going back.

You may wish to hide inside semantics... but if you have wattched a innocent creature get tortured to death and can still consider doing it again and you pay the money, you support the torture

I am not hiding in semantics, I am saying how I feel, I was upset by what I saw, and I did find it disturbing, I have no intention of going again, but if I was invited by my girlfriends family, for example, then I would probably go, I honestly found comfort in seeing the bull butchered and skinned for meat, and for leather afterwards, but I know that wouldn't comfort you.

Yes... and the fact that you dont understand that, is incredibly disturbing

Have you ever thought that it is you who doesn't understand?

Have you ever been to a Bullfight? If you haven't then you cannot fully appreciate it for what it is, I went out of curiosity, and I was disturbed and entertained in equal measure. I went without pre-conceptions, and formed my own opinion.

As I have said I would vote for a ban on bullfighting, but it is a sport, as I tried to explain and you just ignored, that goes beyond what you see sensationalised in your animal rights newsletters.

[Mark_w]

To compare you would have to consider animals rights on a par with humans which the vast majority of people don't. I have seen many a mismatch in the Boxing ring that shouldn't have happened mind, although another beautiful sport, ballet for men.

Watch the video, tell me you aren't impressed.

If it can feel pain, then it's wrong to kill it. Many Animals are vulnerable, and if we take advantage of that by abusing and killing them for our own pleasure (for those who take pleasure in that, which I just can't understand), are we really much better than the people who do that to other human beings?

I mean at the end of the day it feels pain, it suffers in just the same way. Intelligence should not be the measure used for whether it's ok to kill something or not, it's there ability to feel pain or to suffer that's important. If you're saying it's ok because they're less intelligent then I'd love to know if you'd support the organised murder of less intelligent people as long as it's done in a 'beautiful' manner?

[ozleicester]

I am not hiding in semantics, I am saying how I feel, I was upset by what I saw, and I did find it disturbing, I have no intention of going again, but if I was invited by my girlfriends family, for example, then I would probably go, I honestly found comfort in seeing the bull butchered and skinned for meat, and for leather afterwards, but I know that wouldn't comfort you.

Have you ever thought that it is you who doesn't understand?

Have you ever been to a Bullfight? If you haven't then you cannot fully appreciate it for what it is, I went out of curiosity, and I was disturbed and entertained in equal measure. I went without pre-conceptions, and formed my own opinion.

As I have said I would vote for a ban on bullfighting, but it is a sport, as I tried to explain and you just ignored, that goes beyond what you see sensationalised in your animal rights newsletters.

I havent posted a sensationalised newsletter, check who posted what.

You were entertained... the torture of an animal EN TER TAINED you!!!

There is no explaining that..no understanding that... you watched an animal being tortured to death and you were entertained