Guest MattP Posted 30 August 2012 Share Posted 30 August 2012 No, but they will accept the £90m that comes with promotion .... maybe he should have been more accurate and said 11 fold. I didn't realise the only outlay they have this season was one transfer fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col city fan Posted 30 August 2012 Share Posted 30 August 2012 No it isn't at all. You are making one big assumption - That the limit to the investment that the owners want to / are able to is a little bit more than £57m. It's not that people "don't get it", it's that there's more to "get" than £57m is the limit of what we are willing to invest in a promotion push that will instantly bring in £90m. Is nobody taking into account the length of Rhodes contract? In an ideal world, for them, he'll fire them to promotion this season. If not, there's always next season, and the one thereafter. They have a super young player to have a crack at promotion not only this season, but thereafter maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 30 August 2012 Share Posted 30 August 2012 No it isn't at all. You are making one big assumption - That the limit to the investment that the owners want to / are able to is a little bit more than £57m. It's not that people "don't get it", it's that there's more to "get" than £57m is the limit of what we are willing to invest in a promotion push that will instantly bring in £90m. 57 was the figures from last year which effectively was before some of last summers dealings. I'm sure it's well past 90million now, we will need a few seasons up there to pay what we owe back as wages/transfer fees we would have to spend a season to stay up would be a massive chunk of that 90million a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_star Posted 30 August 2012 Share Posted 30 August 2012 No it isn't at all. You are making one big assumption - That the limit to the investment that the owners want to / are able to is a little bit more than £57m. It's not that people "don't get it", it's that there's more to "get" than £57m is the limit of what we are willing to invest in a promotion push that will instantly bring in £90m. You're crazy & have no concept of servicing debt repayments + interest on that debt and what a drag that does to finances. See Liverpool and how close they were to going under in a massive spiral of debt, or have a quick peek at a Pompey board One thing to adjust this unrealistic, childish attitude to this strange pool of money in the minus column on the balance sheet is to stop using the word investment, it's debt pure & simple debt. I don't know how much money we make a year, but realistically the owners have spent the next several years earnings already... and your answer to the 'problem' is to spend even more years earnings? Really? I mean really? Perhaps you should take a look at how we became a Premier League force under MoN or look what West Brom, Swansea or others have done... Nobody has spunked up the next decade's profit (if there ever is any) up the wall in a stupid gamble to go up within a year or two Last word on the subject, if 2 or 3 players do leave tomorrow & they're ones given deals by Sven... eg. Gally, SSL, Beckford, Danns then I'm going to say NPs hands are tied and his remit is different to fans seem to want immediately & he's here to balance the books as much as he is to get promotion over the next couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trav Le Bleu Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 We are supposed to be the big spenders of the division and Blackburn have showed they mean business by paying out 8 million on Rhodes. Where is our ambition? We are spending little money on unknown players eg. 1 million on Matty James 1 million on De Lat, 1 million + on Vardy Free - Whitebread Knockout - Undisclosed Futacs - Free Where is are ambition? Wait until Blackburn get docked points for breaching FFP rules and then we'll talk about ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 You're crazy & have no concept of servicing debt repayments + interest on that debt and what a drag that does to finances. See Liverpool and how close they were to going under in a massive spiral of debt, or have a quick peek at a Pompey board One thing to adjust this unrealistic, childish attitude to this strange pool of money in the minus column on the balance sheet is to stop using the word investment, it's debt pure & simple debt. I don't know how much money we make a year, but realistically the owners have spent the next several years earnings already... and your answer to the 'problem' is to spend even more years earnings? Really? I mean really? Perhaps you should take a look at how we became a Premier League force under MoN or look what West Brom, Swansea or others have done... Nobody has spunked up the next decade's profit (if there ever is any) up the wall in a stupid gamble to go up within a year or two Last word on the subject, if 2 or 3 players do leave tomorrow & they're ones given deals by Sven... eg. Gally, SSL, Beckford, Danns then I'm going to say NPs hands are tied and his remit is different to fans seem to want immediately & he's here to balance the books as much as he is to get promotion over the next couple of years. Oh really?? I've been running 5 businesses and employing more people than you can probably count to for the last 15 years. Please don't patronise me be telling me I don't understand a simple business model. You're right it's misunderstood, by anyone that can't see the bigger picture.... £57m for a football club is not big debt when put in the context of a £90m prize for promotion for 3 sides from 24, and a net worth of several hundred million for the owners. Just keep the insults to yourself and try to make points about the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 57 was the figures from last year which effectively was before some of last summers dealings. I'm sure it's well past 90million now, we will need a few seasons up there to pay what we owe back as wages/transfer fees we would have to spend a season to stay up would be a massive chunk of that 90million a season. Source??? Conjecture?? The last accounts were £57m lets just stick to the facts hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 I didn't realise the only outlay they have this season was one transfer fee. It was the outlay that you were referring to. I was making a direct response to your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 Oh really?? I've been running 5 businesses and employing more people than you can probably count to for the last 15 years. Please don't patronise me be telling me I don't understand a simple business model. You're right it's misunderstood, by anyone that can't see the bigger picture.... £57m for a football club is not big debt when put in the context of a £90m prize for promotion for 3 sides from 24, and a net worth of several hundred million for the owners. Just keep the insults to yourself and try to make points about the discussion. You don't seem to be taking into account that the vast vast majority of the prize will be spent on that season in the Premiership, you are looking at it so basic you seem to think we go up and our bottom line becomes £43million and everything is fine. £57million debt for a Championship football club is an absolutely staggering amount, any debt when you are taking about "a prize" to pay it off shows a complete lack of sensible thinking. Source??? Conjecture?? The last accounts were £57m lets just stick to the facts hey? Well if you consider £57million was spent in the first season before Beckford Mills etc what do you estimate was spent the year after? It was an educated guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 You don't seem to be taking into account that the vast vast majority of the prize will be spent on that season in the Premiership, you are looking at it so basic you seem to think we go up and our bottom line becomes £43million and everything is fine. £57million debt for a Championship football club is an absolutely staggering amount, any debt when you are taking about "a prize" to pay it off shows a complete lack of sensible thinking. Well if you consider £57million was spent in the first season before Beckford Mills etc what do you estimate was spent the year after? It was an educated guess. On what??? If we choose to invest at that point then that will be to stay in the premiership and keep taking the yearly prize .... They wouldn't have to spend much more than a couple of million on enhanced wages for current contracts. Everything else would be profit, or if you like, paying down the debt completely if they choose to. They clearly wouldn't, they'd invest into staying in the prem, as it would make no sense longer term to get there, pay off the debt and get relegated spending nothing in trying to stay there .... but on a simple level - that would be entirely possible and would get you a club with a zero balance sheet. I just don't see why people are obsessing about a zero balance sheet though ... so am just putting forward that it's entirely possible to wipe it out in one season of promotion if that was, bizarrely, the owners' aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 £57million debt for a Championship football club is an absolutely staggering amount, any debt when you are taking about "a prize" to pay it off shows a complete lack of sensible thinking. I disagree entirely. Knock off a few noughts .... I'll sell you an asset for £570 that will give you a very good chance of giving you an income of £900 a year. It may need a few quid spent on servicing and making it a bit nicer but say £100 should put you in a good position to achieve the goal of becoming approved for the £900 a year. Now before you decide on whether it's a good deal, you need to have a look at your own finances of course. You have personal wealth of around £10k - £20k and your business is worth anywhere over £200k. Now ... this £570, which also comes with the benefit of being an advertising vehicle for your main business as well as bringing in the yearly return and being great fun to run .... Oh and you have no need to finance it yourselves as it's an asset that the bank is willing to underwrite your funding, all you need to do is to be willing to cover the debt if it goes pear shape..... Fancy it??? I'd take that deal everyday of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 On what??? If we choose to invest at that point then that will be to stay in the premiership and keep taking the yearly prize .... They wouldn't have to spend much more than a couple of million on enhanced wages for current contracts. Everything else would be profit, or if you like, paying down the debt completely if they choose to. They clearly wouldn't, they'd invest into staying in the prem, as it would make no sense longer term to get there, pay off the debt and get relegated spending nothing in trying to stay there .... but on a simple level - that would be entirely possible and would get you a club with a zero balance sheet. I just don't see why people are obsessing about a zero balance sheet though ... so am just putting forward that it's entirely possible to wipe it out in one season of promotion if that was, bizarrely, the owners' aim. So we go up, clear the balance sheet (possibly), obviously have to sell our players and buy no one to cover next years wages and we and come back down. What was the point in the whole project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 I disagree entirely. Knock off a few noughts .... I'll sell you an asset for £570 that will give you a very good chance of giving you an income of £900 a year. It may need a few quid spent on servicing and making it a bit nicer but say £100 should put you in a good position to achieve the goal of becoming approved for the £900 a year. Now before you decide on whether it's a good deal, you need to have a look at your own finances of course. You have personal wealth of around £10k - £20k and your business is worth anywhere over £200k. Now ... this £570, which also comes with the benefit of being an advertising vehicle for your main business as well as bringing in the yearly return and being great fun to run .... Oh and you have no need to finance it yourselves as it's an asset that the bank is willing to underwrite your funding, all you need to do is to be willing to cover the debt if it goes pear shape..... Fancy it??? I'd take that deal everyday of the week. If you disagree are you actually surprised that not all Championship clubs are getting themselves into debt of up to 90million? After all it's obviously a great idea, did Norwich, Swansea, Stoke, Southampton and Reading do that? Or did they realise you actually don't have to do it? Why not Peterboro? Is it a good idea for them? The first point here is absolutely ridiculous, like you say the thing that costs me £570 gives me a 3 in 24 chance of getting £900 after investment? No thanks, I think I'll probably find buy something else for £25 and ask Neil Warnock to polish it for me. No need to finance it myself but I have to cover the debt? You sound like the man with a 6 grand bank loan who keeps borrowing £20 to buy scratchcards to try and pay it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 Oh and you have no need to finance it yourselves as it's an asset that the bank is willing to underwrite your funding, all you need to do is to be willing to cover the debt if it goes pear shape..... Fancy it??? No because you have a 21 in 24 chance of it going Pear shaped. At what point do you stop chasing the dream then? £89.5m in debt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 So we go up, clear the balance sheet (possibly), obviously have to sell our players and buy no one to cover next years wages and we and come back down. What was the point in the whole project? None..... apart from pay off the balance sheet which is what you are obsessing about .... which if you like does put us £57m better off so you could say there's lots of point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 If you disagree are you actually surprised that not all Championship clubs are getting themselves into debt of up to 90million? After all it's obviously a great idea, did Norwich, Swansea, Stoke, Southampton and Reading do that? Or did they realise you actually don't have to do it? Why not Peterboro? Is it a good idea for them? The first point here is absolutely ridiculous, like you say the thing that costs me £570 gives me a 3 in 24 chance of getting £900 after investment? No thanks, I think I'll probably find buy something else for £25 and ask Neil Warnock to polish it for me. No need to finance it myself but I have to cover the debt? You sound like the man with a 6 grand bank loan who keeps borrowing £20 to buy scratchcards to try and pay it off. No because you have a 21 in 24 chance of it going Pear shaped. At what point do you stop chasing the dream then? £89.5m in debt? There's one difference to the scratch cards and pessimistic view of 21/24 chance ..... As a business they'd be backing their own ability. I run my businesses in competitive environments, should i give up because there's lots of businesses like ours trying to achieve the same??? No.... I back myself to be better than them and to achieve the things they can't .... Which is why I put some of my current assets as security against the operating loans that those businesses operate with ... speculate to accumulate and all that. In it to win it. As many cliches as you like .... but it's all about backing your own judgement and taking a calculated business risk. That's not like buying a scratch card - a chance gamble with the odds stacked against you and you can't influence those odds. it's not like being in too much debt to service either as it's very easily serviced by the business let alone the assets of the owners. For me, what's too much debt, £89.5m?? No. Much more ... £120 - 150m I'd say was fair value against an asset that has about a 3/8 chance of getting the prize of £90m a year. And around a 1/2 chance of getting it the year after, and once i"m getting the £90m the chances of staying at that level increase each year. That's if I'm just looking at fair value of the football club - not if i take into account the added benefits of exposing the brand of my existing business to a global audience (which is the key reason the current owners invested), the value would be even higher then. People are too worried about our finances .... comparing us to pompey etc is just not valid. Pompey didn't have the financial clout of our owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 If you disagree are you actually surprised that not all Championship clubs are getting themselves into debt of up to 90million? After all it's obviously a great idea, did Norwich, Swansea, Stoke, Southampton and Reading do that? Or did they realise you actually don't have to do it? Why not Peterboro? Is it a good idea for them? The first point here is absolutely ridiculous, like you say the thing that costs me £570 gives me a 3 in 24 chance of getting £900 after investment? No thanks, I think I'll probably find buy something else for £25 and ask Neil Warnock to polish it for me. No need to finance it myself but I have to cover the debt? You sound like the man with a 6 grand bank loan who keeps borrowing £20 to buy scratchcards to try and pay it off. No I'm not surprised - they are small businesses without the assets to support that kind of ambition and the lending required. We are a bigger business, and we have the assets of a group of individuals that can borrow significant amounts of money because they could pay it back if it went wrong. Those clubs don't. They'd love to in most cases, but can't. We are simply doing what most clubs would love to - but for some reason our pessimistic supporters would rather worry about quick success rather than embrace it and be happy that we have owners that can afford it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_star Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 There's one difference to the scratch cards and pessimistic view of 21/24 chance ..... As a business they'd be backing their own ability. I run my businesses in competitive environments, should i give up because there's lots of businesses like ours trying to achieve the same??? No.... I back myself to be better than them and to achieve the things they can't .... Which is why I put some of my current assets as security against the operating loans that those businesses operate with ... speculate to accumulate and all that. In it to win it. As many cliches as you like .... but it's all about backing your own judgement and taking a calculated business risk. That's not like buying a scratch card - a chance gamble with the odds stacked against you and you can't influence those odds. it's not like being in too much debt to service either as it's very easily serviced by the business let alone the assets of the owners. For me, what's too much debt, £89.5m?? No. Much more ... £120 - 150m I'd say was fair value against an asset that has about a 3/8 chance of getting the prize of £90m a year. And around a 1/2 chance of getting it the year after, and once i"m getting the £90m the chances of staying at that level increase each year. That's if I'm just looking at fair value of the football club - not if i take into account the added benefits of exposing the brand of my existing business to a global audience (which is the key reason the current owners invested), the value would be even higher then. People are too worried about our finances .... comparing us to pompey etc is just not valid. Pompey didn't have the financial clout of our owners. Our owners don't have the financial clout of the owners of about 75% of the clubs in this division... $240m ($ not £) isn't that much in comparison to Bristol City, Watford, Brighton, Blackburn, Middlesbrough and god knows how many more. You also seem to think its some sort of gift even though you know it needs paying back you don't understand the rammifications of paying it back So, whilst we're paying our owners back + interest, that money could have gone on a several million pound signing. Facts are we did our bit, it didn't work and there's now the choice of throwing good money after bad... The end game of your preferred route is Rangers, Pompey, Liverpool (before FSG tookover) Thankfully you're not the one who simply spending 2017's income then 2018's income then 2019's income as you seem to want, whilst forgetting how the hell we're going to survive when we get to those years and need that income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 So we go up, clear the balance sheet (possibly), obviously have to sell our players and buy no one to cover next years wages and we and come back down. What was the point in the whole project? I'm not sure why you think this?? This a a £90m prize for getting promotion .... it's what we'd be better off by. The football club is basically at break even point without it and without the additional investment in players to get there..... we don't need to sell anyone, and the income from the championship would cover their wages. It's simply wrong to say we'd have to sell players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 Our owners don't have the financial clout of the owners of about 75% of the clubs in this division... $240m ($ not £) isn't that much in comparison to Bristol City, Watford, Brighton, Blackburn, Middlesbrough and god knows how many more. You also seem to think its some sort of gift even though you know it needs paying back you don't understand the rammifications of paying it back So, whilst we're paying our owners back + interest, that money could have gone on a several million pound signing. Facts are we did our bit, it didn't work and there's now the choice of throwing good money after bad... The end game of your preferred route is Rangers, Pompey, Liverpool (before FSG tookover) Thankfully you're not the one who simply spending 2017's income then 2018's income then 2019's income as you seem to want, whilst forgetting how the hell we're going to survive when we get to those years and need that income. We'll agree to differ .... which is why you are happy with NP and mid table championship and I have more ambition for the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 There's one difference to the scratch cards and pessimistic view of 21/24 chance ..... As a business they'd be backing their own ability. I run my businesses in competitive environments, should i give up because there's lots of businesses like ours trying to achieve the same??? No.... I back myself to be better than them and to achieve the things they can't .... Which is why I put some of my current assets as security against the operating loans that those businesses operate with ... speculate to accumulate and all that. In it to win it. As many cliches as you like .... but it's all about backing your own judgement and taking a calculated business risk. That's not like buying a scratch card - a chance gamble with the odds stacked against you and you can't influence those odds. it's not like being in too much debt to service either as it's very easily serviced by the business let alone the assets of the owners. For me, what's too much debt, £89.5m?? No. Much more ... £120 - 150m I'd say was fair value against an asset that has about a 3/8 chance of getting the prize of £90m a year. And around a 1/2 chance of getting it the year after, and once i"m getting the £90m the chances of staying at that level increase each year. That's if I'm just looking at fair value of the football club - not if i take into account the added benefits of exposing the brand of my existing business to a global audience (which is the key reason the current owners invested), the value would be even higher then. People are too worried about our finances .... comparing us to pompey etc is just not valid. Pompey didn't have the financial clout of our owners. You can influence your odds on a scratch card, you buy more of them. Like buying more players... And in both cases you can spunk your cash up the wall quite easily. Football isn't a normal business, football isn't their business either. They are putting their faith in others. Frankly I think you are insane, if you aren't I hope you make enough money to buy the club and spunk your own cash on a dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 Our owners don't have the financial clout of the owners of about 75% of the clubs in this division... $240m ($ not £) isn't that much in comparison to Bristol City, Watford, Brighton, Blackburn, Middlesbrough and god knows how many more. You also seem to think its some sort of gift even though you know it needs paying back you don't understand the rammifications of paying it back So, whilst we're paying our owners back + interest, that money could have gone on a several million pound signing. Facts are we did our bit, it didn't work and there's now the choice of throwing good money after bad... The end game of your preferred route is Rangers, Pompey, Liverpool (before FSG tookover) Thankfully you're not the one who simply spending 2017's income then 2018's income then 2019's income as you seem to want, whilst forgetting how the hell we're going to survive when we get to those years and need that income. You quoted 75% and then fizzle out after naming 20% of the division, a few of which you are wrong with. Don't let facts get in the way of you quoting meaningless statistics to back up your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5waller5 Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 You can influence your odds on a scratch card, you buy more of them. Like buying more players... And in both cases you can spunk your cash up the wall quite easily. Football isn't a normal business, football isn't their business either. They are putting their faith in others. Frankly I think you are insane, if you aren't I hope you make enough money to buy the club and spunk your own cash on a dream. I thought you were more intelligent than that Babs ..... that's buying more scratch cards, not influencing the odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zingari Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 I thought you were more intelligent than that Babs ..... that's buying more scratch cards, not influencing the odds. buying more scratch cards increases the odds of you having a winning ticket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_star Posted 31 August 2012 Share Posted 31 August 2012 buying more scratch cards increases the odds of you having a winning ticket If you've borrowed (which is what's happening) the money to buy the scratchcards... there comes a point where you can't buy any more scratch cards because your repayments on your borrowing prevent you Or perhaps whoever is in charge of you buying scratchcards has a budget you can't go over until you've got rid of your old scratchcards for as much money as possible whan they've proved they're not worth that It's a stupid comparison to footie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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