marbelladave Posted 4 November 2012 Share Posted 4 November 2012 This is where you and I must once again disagree Dave mi ol sparring partner. Yesterday's formation was what you'd been after for weeks ( or one possibility as you said). I too thought it looked rather nice. However, it left us too frail defensively. Especially away from home. To be able to do something with the ball you have to have the ball. Our attacking middle men couldn't do much with it because they didn't have it. Now where does that leave us? Well the formation in principle remains a good option. However, where you and I seem to disagree is that you think this will come good with the right coaching? Of course, that will improve us. Our players are coached week in week out. My opinion is that Pearson reverted to type because he discovered that defensively, the middle just wasn't good enough to win the ball and to give it to our creative players. City under MON excelled because of Lennon. He was the engine and the ball winner. He could give it to Parker and Muzzy and then off we went again. We have no one in the side who can tackle hard, can mop up, stick bang to position and then simply get us going again. The only one like this is Drinkwater who is still young and not as consistent as he will be in the future. IMO we can only play your formation with midfielders who are better at the defensive side if the game. Pearson saw we were over-run yesterday so went back to his tried and tested. Can't argue Col as I didn't see the game. Fleckneymike in the following post suggests that King was pushed forward, was this the case? If so that was a serious error, King is a holding player who does great work defensively and despite his goals is not a creative player in the usual sense. If we are going to play with a central creative player in front of 2 holding players then that player has to be either Knockaert or Marshall. Personally I think that Drinkwater/King/James would make an defensively effective central pairing if they were not required to get quite as far forward as is currently the case, an attacking player 'in the hole' would make that happen. Regarding the coaching, I have no doubt that our platers are being regularly coached, but why are we not seeing the effects of that coaching? Why can we still not defend set pieces? Why do we put such a huge load on our central midfield paring? What about the uselessness of our own set pieces, particularly corners? Why are we chipping and floating diagonal balls into the box when we know that neither Nugent nor Vardy are going to win them? Why do we play our most creative players in wide positions where their influence is minimal? Sure, anyone can say we are going to play this formation or that formation but whenever we step away from 4-4-2 I get the distinct impression that a fair few of our players do not know what is expected of them. Will a strong DM sort all these issues out? No, I didn't think so either...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleckneymike Posted 4 November 2012 Share Posted 4 November 2012 Can't argue Col as I didn't see the game. Fleckneymike in the following post suggests that King was pushed forward, was this the case? If so that was a serious error, King is a holding player who does great work defensively and despite his goals is not a creative player in the usual sense. If we are going to play with a central creative player in front of 2 holding players then that player has to be either Knockaert or Marshall. Personally I think that Drinkwater/King/James would make an defensively effective central pairing if they were not required to get quite as far forward as is currently the case, an attacking player 'in the hole' would make that happen. Regarding the coaching, I have no doubt that our platers are being regularly coached, but why are we not seeing the effects of that coaching? Why can we still not defend set pieces? Why do we put such a huge load on our central midfield paring? What about the uselessness of our own set pieces, particularly corners? Why are we chipping and floating diagonal balls into the box when we know that neither Nugent nor Vardy are going to win them? Why do we play our most creative players in wide positions where their influence is minimal? Sure, anyone can say we are going to play this formation or that formation but whenever we step away from 4-4-2 I get the distinct impression that a fair few of our players do not know what is expected of them. Will a strong DM sort all these issues out? No, I didn't think so either...... We alternated between 451, 4141 and 4411, to very little effect. We switched to 442 second half and still lost. We've lost playing 442 at Charlton, Blackburn, for half at Watford and at home against Palace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertine Dream Posted 4 November 2012 Share Posted 4 November 2012 The mistake yesterday was not playing Dyer, and sticking Knocky out wide. Dyer creates the room for other players, and Knocky is the player to get things going aswell as supporting the striker. 2nd half against Burnley and against Hull we played with him more central and this was when we created most chances. Yesterday he was stuck out wide, Palace the same and we were pretty poor. NP has got to let him roam more and not be conservative about things otherwise I feel we could slide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 4 November 2012 Share Posted 4 November 2012 We alternated between 451, 4141 and 4411, to very little effect. We switched to 442 second half and still lost. We've lost playing 442 at Charlton, Blackburn, for half at Watford and at home against Palace. Wasn't suggesting that we should be playing 4-4-2, I dont think we play it all that well, but we are, in general and at the moment, actually worse when we try to set up any other way....... I remain convinced that we have the players to play a modern, flexible, attacking game and we were quite close to doing exactly that just a few short weeks ago but somehow we never quite got there. Yes we won a few games but we were lucky on a couple of occasions and made hard work of a few others. We were at our fluent best, when for a few moments at least, we played Knockaert in a central attacking role but that disrupted our shape but instead of altering our shape to get the most from this, we pushed him wide to keep our shape and lost our cutting edge...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleckneymike Posted 4 November 2012 Share Posted 4 November 2012 Wasn't suggesting that we should be playing 4-4-2, I dont think we play it all that well, but we are, in general and at the moment, actually worse when we try to set up any other way....... I remain convinced that we have the players to play a modern, flexible, attacking game and we were quite close to doing exactly that just a few short weeks ago but somehow we never quite got there. Yes we won a few games but we were lucky on a couple of occasions and made hard work of a few others. We were at our fluent best, when for a few moments at least, we played Knockaert in a central attacking role but that disrupted our shape but instead of altering our shape to get the most from this, we pushed him wide to keep our shape and lost our cutting edge...... I'm a firm believer that formation makes **** all difference. We've stopped playing football, what made us successful early on was our attacking intent, incredible work rate and our focus on short passing. Recently we've started lumping the thing forward and gift possession away. I said to a mate a while back that when we were playing well we were playing at our absolute maximum, if we play just a tiny bit beneath we become very ordinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan LCFC Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 Not really said a lot but thought we were pretty awful yesterday, everything about the game was just embarrassing. Defence looked shaky and both goals were absolutely soft as shite, they always seem to drag us down to their level. That's admittedly pretty harsh because they played some pretty decent stuff at times, that Forestieri for all he's got a twattish name (although also FLAIR) and was a bit of a diving twat, looked very impressive. We weren't in the game at all, not helped again by the ref but I'd accepted a shit ref as soon as I saw we had a Premier League ref, they do us every single time the hopeless wankers. Not turning to him for it though, we had absolutely no spark and couldn't get any sort of rhythm going, it was embarrassing. Certain players are starting to concern me, those being Moore, Whitbread & Marshall. Moore looks less confident every time I see him play, Whitbread for all Norwich raved about him and for all I've been inclined to agree, has been nothing short of woeful in the last two games. Deserved his red card and I'm not gonna miss him if he's gonna play like that, got the feeling there's a lot more to come from him but I'd say in all bar the Brighton game (where he was class to be fair) he's looked below par. I'd never rated St Ledger but truth be told his absence is winning me over (which always worries me), he's a good footballing centre back, probably our best, but never thought he was up to much defensively, but we've been trying to play a lot more football rather than hoofball this year and I can't help but think he's far more suited to this than Whitbread, I hate to say it but Whitbread as a footballer reminds me a lot of Mills. Marshall is just ineffective so often, he's had two good games all season, it simply isn't nearly good enough. Nothing knee-jerk from me about the team, can't win them all, but to produce two displays like that in a row, you can't help but feel a little concerned. I still believe NP will sort it and we'll be in the top six, if not better, but the last two displays have been pretty inept and I swear to god I am never ever going to Vicarage Road again. Just a final word on our 'support'. Utterly, utterly embarrassing. I actually cannot explain it anymore, there is no team, I swear no team in this league currently, even Watford (who's fans were diabolical and that's being generous) would be as high in the league as us and be so quiet for the numbers. I don't know what it is, but it's almost like our fans expect to be absolutely killing the opposition from the start. Vast majority were pretty much on the teams backs from the word go, sat down in silence (of course unless they made a mistake), it was dreadful. The trains there and in-particularly back were top notch but what the hell is wrong with us in the ground? I just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_horns Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 "don't know what it is, but it's almost like our fans expect to be absolutely killing the opposition from the star" Well maybe they were annoyed you were "dragged" down to our level having paid good money to come and watch.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Fatboyslow_ Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 Thanks Dan for thinking it over and posting your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accessory Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 "don't know what it is, but it's almost like our fans expect to be absolutely killing the opposition from the star" Well maybe they were annoyed you were "dragged" down to our level having paid good money to come and watch.. Enjoy it while you can. Meanwhile we'll recall how pitiful Watford have been on their last four visits to the Way. Doubt this season will be any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accessory Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 We weren't in the game at all, not helped again by the ref but I'd accepted a shit ref as soon as I saw we had a Premier League ref, they do us every single time the hopeless wankers. Not turning to him for it though, we had absolutely no spark and couldn't get any sort of rhythm going, it was embarrassing. D'Urso isn't on the Premier list any more. Can't understand how he ever made it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Fatboyslow_ Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 I said to a mate a while back that when we were playing well we were playing at our absolute maximum, if we play just a tiny bit beneath we become very ordinary. You may be on the ball there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighton Matt Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 Bit late to the party here but a few brief observations from myself: 1) Drinkwater - I think it's no coincidence that the two recent defeats have coincided with two poor performances from DD. He has been outstanding so far this season in breaking up attacks and allowing the likes of King and Knockaert to get forward knowing he will sit in and anchor the midfield if we lose possession. Needs to find his form again soon. 2) Moore - I know he is a local lad but can't understand the love for this guy, I just don't think he is good enough for the championship. Ideally would loan him to a league 1 club to gain some confidence but the squad is a little thin for that. 3) James - I've given this guy a bit of time but can anyone explain what he actually does? Goal threat = zero. Passing = neat but mostly backwards. Tackling/ballwinning ability = limited. He's clearly got ability given his pedigree but needs to start showing something tangible. 4) Whitbread - Reminds me a bit of Dabizas. One minute he's so far up the guy he's marking he's climbing all over them, the next he's standing off too much. I think he's actually quite solid but just needs to sort his positioning out (and his distribution but I've given up on all hope on that) 5) Diving - Did anyone else find it disappointing to say the least how much diving there was from us on Saturday? Knockaert, Lloyd (every time he pushed the ball past his man), King, Moore...everyone seemed to be at it. If the opposition had done that everyone would be screaming blue murder. 6) Waghorn - He's taken a pasting on here recently but give the guy some credit he at least tried to make things happen when he came on. 7) Vardy - thought we missed him on Saturday. I keep reading comments about how he doesn't score enough goals but there is a lot of intelligence in his movement/interplay and thought we missed that in a big way on Saturday. Roll on Bolton...need to erase the memory of that performance quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maybes Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 Agree with you Matt re Waghorn. He was very impressive when he came on I thought. We really do need to start playing Knocky through the middle more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_horns Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 Enjoy it while you can. Meanwhile we'll recall how pitiful Watford have been on their last four visits to the Way. Doubt this season will be any different. That is true...and its at the end of the season so could be pretty important match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveherbe Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 Agree with you Matt re Waghorn. He was very impressive when he came on I thought. We really do need to start playing Knocky through the middle more! I'd also like to add my support for Waggy. He tried to make things happen, good control and was prepared to take people on where it mattered, Futacs wasnt as bad as some morons are making out either. The header down for Nugent - who unfortunately ran the wrong way - was Howard-esque in its brilliance. And he got a shot on goal, something the vast majority of the team singularly failed to do. Finally, the support was ok in our block, but the prawn sandwich brigade were sat behind the goal, and steadfastly refused to stand or get involved at all. Apologies to everyone around us for Sol the Wall Bambas disgusting language, although some of his coaching hints - especially aimed at Whitbread - were priceless. NP should give this lad a coaching job immediately!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbelladave Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 As Fleckneymike said a little earlier, it is not about systems as such, it is really about getting the best from your players in a role that they can play for the team. A few set pieces aside, I do not think our back 4 are set up at all badly, just a bit of consistency will probably help, likewise the pairing of Drinkwater and King playing in front of the back 4 is usually solid. Even with a nicely set up defensive unit there are still 'issues', the aforementioned set piece issue needs work, we need to work out who is covering for De Laet when he gets forward (wide man or one of the center midfielders?) and most importantly, we need to ease the work load on the Drinkwater/King partnership, by playing a proper creative player (Knockaert?) in front of them and behind the striker(s). A solid defensive unit my most standards but still things that need sorting, get them right and it will be formidable. The front 4 though, that is a different matter....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleckneymike Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 I'd also like to add my support for Waggy. He tried to make things happen, good control and was prepared to take people on where it mattered, Futacs wasnt as bad as some morons are making out either. The header down for Nugent - who unfortunately ran the wrong way - was Howard-esque in its brilliance. And he got a shot on goal, something the vast majority of the team singularly failed to do. Finally, the support was ok in our block, but the prawn sandwich brigade were sat behind the goal, and steadfastly refused to stand or get involved at all. Apologies to everyone around us for Sol the Wall Bambas disgusting language, although some of his coaching hints - especially aimed at Whitbread - were priceless. NP should give this lad a coaching job immediately!! I think Waghorn is a bag of wank but credit to the lad he used his extremely limited ability to try and get something to happen on Saturday. Marshall is completely bereft of confidence, plays like Olg Gil from the Simpsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKCJ Posted 5 November 2012 Share Posted 5 November 2012 Vince's interview is being replayed by the football forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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