Woolwich

[flowwolf]

We shouldn't ignore it, but we should make sure that we target the right people and not all Muslims, we will be a lot more successful working with the decent Muslim communities, which are the majority, than alienating them and turning it into an anti Islam issue.

 

Yep agree with you fully on that.

[MooseBreath]

Where are you getting tortured from? I can't see tortured in any news article I've read, even the Mail, scant on actual facts, doesn't use the word tortured:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331919/Terror-police-called-prison-warder-held-hostage-Muslim-inmates.html

And despite claiming in the headline: captive told he was 'going to die and have toilet cleaner poured in his eyes'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331919/Terror-police-called-prison-warder-held-hostage-Muslim-inmates.html#ixzz2Ud3l0vCe

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

They fail to mention that in the article or give a source, and as no other news site mentions torture, I'm not sure where you got it from, I know that you would never use emotive words to stir up feelings, so if you can provide the source it would be nice.

As for, 'it continues', what continues exactly? Did they behead him while he was being held hostage? Did they shout Allah Akbar and ask people to record their hate filled lies? Where they even imprisoned for terrorist acts?

What has continued, other than reactionaries bringing religion into something before the facts come out and equating it with this whole Bad Islam rhetoric?

Finally, you take away the rhetoric and the Islamaphobia, what you are left with is some people, already in a maximum security, so clearly dangerous criminals, attacked a prison guard. Oh but they were Muslim, so it is clearly a threat to our national security that these dangerous criminals are in a maximum security prison, and is linked to a man getting beheaded in the street and the 'rising threat of Islam'.

If the facts turn out that I am wrong, and they were somehow directly connected to the killing in Woolwich and Muslim paedophile gangs, I will retract that, but as the full facts aren't released yet I will not be jumping to conclusions.

It is being investigated as an act of terrorism so one suspects those who do know exactly what happened are taking it very seriously indeed.

You're probably right though, probably just yet another isolated incident where the perps just happen to be muslim.

[Captain...]

It is being investigated as an act of terrorism so one suspects those who do know exactly what happened are taking it very seriously indeed.

You're probably right though, probably just yet another isolated incident where the perps just happen to be muslim.

So no source on him being tortured then?

[MooseBreath]

So no source on him being tortured then?

They held him hostage for several hours during which time he sustained injuries sufficient for him to have to be taken to hospital. What are you thinking then? The injuries were an accident, he just happened to trip and fall and land on a pair of scissors?

[Captain...]

They held him hostage for several hours during which time he sustained injuries sufficient for him to have to be taken to hospital. What are you thinking then? The injuries were an accident, he just happened to trip and fall and land on a pair of scissors?

I'm thinking they attacked him because they are dangerous violent criminals, there is a big difference between attacking someone and keeping them hostage and torturing someone, I'm just curious where you got the idea they tortured him from.

[Guest Bilo]

Any set of dangerous criminals will beat the crap out of a prison officer if they hold him hostage. Their religion doesn't come into it.

 

Full Sutton is a maximum security prison, full of vicious bastards. It's known for holding some of Britain's most dangerous criminals, the risk will always be there.

[MooseBreath]

Fair enough. This carpet is getting awfully lumpy.

[Guest MattP]

Fair enough. This carpet is getting awfully lumpy.

It's going to get far lumpier believe me!

I waa arguing with a girl this morning that was trying to claim Sharia Law was 'nothing to do with Islam'.

[Captain...]

As this is turning into a general West vs Muslims thread a few related stories from around the world:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22691655

 

 

British forces are detaining up to 85 Afghan nationals in a holding facility at Camp Bastion, in what could amount to unlawful detention and internment, documents obtained by the BBC suggest.

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22698510

 

A list apparently showing the contact details of English Defence League members has been published online.

It has been posted by people claiming to be part of a computer hacking network known as Anonymous...

...The publication followed an audio message, recorded with a computerised voice and published on YouTube, from Anonymous UK to the EDL that accused the far-right group of taking "advantage of moments of fear and terror to spread hatred and animosity".

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552

 

 

A mosque has been praised for serving tea and biscuits to English Defence League supporters after the far-right group arranged a demonstration there.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22699156

 

 

Man arrested over soldier knife attack in Paris

The suspect was a petty criminal known to police, correspondents say.

Speaking on French TV on Wednesday, Mr Walls warned against jumping to early conclusions.

The minister said that although there were signs that the suspect may be linked to radical Islam, the investigation was still in its early stages.

"I remain cautious," the minister said.

[Guest Bilo]

Will people be so quick to panic about the growing threat of the far-right if/when a nutter member of the EDL really takes things to the next level?

 

We're already seeing mosques being petrol bombed, Muslims being attacked in the street and violent EDL protests. If someone decides to bomb an Islamic centre or mosque, which doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility, who becomes the bogeyman then?

[Guest MattP]

Will people be so quick to panic about the growing threat of the far-right if/when a nutter member of the EDL really takes things to the next level?

We're already seeing mosques being petrol bombed, Muslims being attacked in the street and violent EDL protests. If someone decides to bomb an Islamic centre or mosque, which doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility, who becomes the bogeyman then?

If that happens we are all in trouble. Personally dont think it will mind.

If you think the scenes are violent with the EDL can you imagine how the young Muslims will react to a Mosque bombing that killed a few.

[Captain...]

If that happens we are all in trouble. Personally dont think it will mind.

If you think the scenes are violent with the EDL can you imagine how the young Muslims will react to a Mosque bombing that killed a few.

 

Well the petrol bomb in Grimsby fortunately didn't kill anyone, and so far no further response:

 

Sabik said the attackers were ignorant about teachings of Islam adding that community spirit was holding up despite the assaults. "They obviously don't understand the reality of Islam and what we believe in. We are a religion of peace and we condemn the awful attack on that young man in Woolwich.

"Although we are devastated by both attacks here, there is a great sense of community around here and our spirits will not be broken. We have had countless people come to the mosque in the last few days to offer their support."

Austin Mitchell, the Labour MP for Great Grimsby, said attacks on mosques and other Islamic institutions were playing into the hands of terrorists who wanted community conflict. Speaking to BBC Radio Humberside, Mitchell said: "It's sheer, simple stupidity. I'm appalled and shocked. I didn't expect this in Grimsby These idiots, whoever they are, are playing directly into the hand of the terrorists."

Read the full article at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/27/grimsby-mosque-petrol-bombs#ixzz2UgAloSwV

 

 

so far no retaliation to this attack, but I don't know if it would have been the same had someone died. Austin Mitchell has it spot on with what he says.

[Guest Bilo]

If that happens we are all in trouble. Personally dont think it will mind.

If you think the scenes are violent with the EDL can you imagine how the young Muslims will react to a Mosque bombing that killed a few.

 

I'm just curious as to what the reaction would be if the boot were on the other foot.

 

Say a right-wing extremist killed an imam in the street and the reaction involved churches being petrol bombed, white people being abused in the street and violent, provocative protests by Anjem Choudary and his clown troupe. I can imagine which wrongs the press would be more eager to report on and the public more eager to condemn.

[Guest MattP]

Works both ways though.

Had that happened the BBC etc would probably be sweeping the reaction of those doing it under the carpet.

I've not seen the EDL off the screen last few days after a few hundred went out and caused a bit of fuss.

If you had beamed someone in from outer space they would think the EDL were the ones who had cut someone's head off in the street, bombed an underground committing mass murder and been delibrately targetting Islamic girls for sexual abusie across the country.

The reaction is fairly tame considering what has gone on. It wouldn't be a few hundred having a sing and shout on the street if you reversed the roles.

[Rincewind]

The trouble is some people allow prejudice rule their brain. The scapegoat is always someone else.

[Guest Bilo]

I do worry about the direction the EDL are taking though.

 

This seems to have radicalised them and made them more violent. While I certainly won't go as far as to equate their violence with the downright savage violence of Islamic extremists; it only takes a handful of nutters to really escalate matters and having seen the EDL in action more than once, I would say the organisation is a fertile breeding ground for that kind of nutter.

 

The most disturbing thing about the nature of Lee Rigby's murder, apart from the savage brutality of it, is the fact that it shows what chaos a couple of nutters can cause with an unplanned, low-tech attack. Not to mention the fact that it's virtually impossible to guard against. 

 

Someone topping Andy Choudary on his way to collect his dole or a pipe bomb in East London Mosque could both easily be done by someone with little skill and intelligence yet could cause massive, massive unrest. 

 

The country needs to tackle extremists of all hues head on in my opinion.

[Guest MattP]

Well the petrol bomb in Grimsby fortunately didn't kill anyone, and so far no further response:

so far no retaliation to this attack, but I don't know if it would have been the same had someone died. Austin Mitchell has it spot on with what he says.

The problem isn't with Islam it's with the teachings of it.

The people of the religion are of course peaceful, the quran isn't and it's rhetoric is always going to breed extremism when its literally taken as tge word of god.

[Guest MattP]

I do worry about the direction the EDL are taking though.

This seems to have radicalised them and made them more violent. While I certainly won't go as far as to equate their violence with the downright savage violence of Islamic extremists; it only takes a handful of nutters to really escalate matters and having seen the EDL in action more than once, I would say the organisation is a fertile breeding ground for that kind of nutter.

The most disturbing thing about the nature of Lee Rigby's murder, apart from the savage brutality of it, is the fact that it shows what chaos a couple of nutters can cause with an unplanned, low-tech attack. Not to mention the fact that it's virtually impossible to guard against.

Someone topping Andy Choudary on his way to collect his dole or a pipe bomb in East London Mosque could both easily be done by someone with little skill and intelligence yet could cause massive, massive unrest.

The country needs to tackle extremists of all hues head on in my opinion.

I agree with everything you say here.

They wont though, this time next year ill walk to Hyde Park and ill still be able to hear a guy telling me to rise up and destroy the jew whilst he is under police protection. I think deep down we all know it.

[MooseBreath]

Will people be so quick to panic about the growing threat of the far-right if/when a nutter member of the EDL really takes things to the next level?

We've been living with the fear of Islamic extremism for well over a decade. Recently their plots against us have increased in regularity and their successful attacks have stepped up a level in brutality. I don't think anyone has been "quick to panic". If anything we've tolerated this ongoing threat to our safety remarkably well and continue to do so. I think some people are simply realising that we are eventually going to have to ask serious questions of Islam and its place in a civilised society.

The EDL meanwhile have never killed anyone, nor have any of their members ever been charged with plotting to kill someone. They may not be to your taste but to put them anywhere near the same bracket as the brutal, murderous Muslim terrorists is ludicrous.

[Guest Bilo]

We've been living with the fear of Islamic extremism for well over a decade. Recently their plots against us have increased in regularity and their successful attacks have stepped up a level in brutality. I don't think anyone has been "quick to panic". If anything we've tolerated this ongoing threat to our safety remarkably well and continue to do so. I think some people are simply realising that we are eventually going to have to ask serious questions of Islam and its place in a civilised society.

The EDL meanwhile have never killed anyone, nor have any of their members ever been charged with plotting to kill someone. They may not be to your taste but to put them anywhere near the same bracket as the brutal, murderous Muslim terrorists is ludicrous.

 

If you read my posts properly, I don't equate them. It's clear that chanting 'Allah is a paedo' and smashing up a few branches of Maryland is not on the same level as beheading a soldier in the street or blowing yourself up on the tube.

 

My point is that there will always be the risk of certain members of the EDL thinking the organisation needs to make the step up in violence and doing it for themselves. Islamic extremists do not have the monopoly on terror and violence, there will always be far-right nutters waiting in the wings to match them.

 

David Copeland did it in the late 1990s, Timothy McVeigh did it in 1995. 

 

The worry for me is that a lot of their rhetoric now targets Islam itself rather than Islamic extremists, and they are becoming more violent and more radical with every protest. As much as I despise Choudary and his band of ne'er-do-wells, their numbers are but a fraction of the EDL and produce violent, sociopathic indivduals. It's only by the grace of God that the EDL haven't yet. When they do, shit will kick off. 

 

The rapid growth of a far-right, anti-Islamic street movement with an increasingly violent rhetoric scares me. Does it scare me as much as Islamic extremism gaining a foothold? No, but it's not a threat we can easily afford to ignore or write off.

[Captain...]

We've been living with the fear of Islamic extremism for well over a decade. Recently their plots against us have increased in regularity and their successful attacks have stepped up a level in brutality. I don't think anyone has been "quick to panic". If anything we've tolerated this ongoing threat to our safety remarkably well and continue to do so. I think some people are simply realising that we are eventually going to have to ask serious questions of Islam and its place in a civilised society.

 

Which successful attacks are these? Do you mean the one successful, but crude attack on our soil in a decade where one man died? Or the crude bombs in Boston where 3 people died?

 

Not wanting to downplay the severity and brutality of these recent attacks, but compared to 7/7 52 people dead, 9/11 around 3,000, 191 died in Madrid bombings, 202 died in the Bali bombings.

 

This seems more like the death throes of a dying cause that has been dormant for a long time, which is why we should be treating it as such and not raising the threat level, I'm not saying we stop being vigilant, but the fact that we have stopped all but one very crude attack, shows we have the upper hand, what we can't afford to do is give more people reason to attack us, which is why the EDL or other right wing groups trying to stir up tension are dangerous.

[Guest MattP]

David Copeland did it in the late 1990s, Timothy McVeigh did it in 1995. 

And the press couldn't wait to equate that to the far-right could they. They weren't lone nutters.

 

In fact they even mention David Copeland on the BBC half the time when the BNP is still mentioned now despite him leaving the party for them being 'too political'.

[Steven]

Hear, hear, hear.

Britain's wars fuel terror. Denying it only feeds Islamophobia

Those who send British troops to shed blood in the Muslim world must share the blame for atrocities like Woolwich

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/29/britain-wars-terror-islamophobia#ixzz2UgS9Oz2e

[Guest MattP]

This seems more like the death throes of a dying cause that has been dormant for a long time, which is why we should be treating it as such and not raising the threat level, I'm not saying we stop being vigilant, but the fact that we have stopped all but one very crude attack, shows we have the upper hand, what we can't afford to do is give more people reason to attack us, which is why the EDL or other right wing groups trying to stir up tension are dangerous.

The EDL is not going to turn a moderate Muslim into a terrorist and if they have the ability to do so, we are all fcuked.

[Guest Bilo]

The EDL is not going to turn a moderate Muslim into a terrorist and if they have the ability to do so, we are all fcuked.

 

If members of it start attacking Muslims per se, they can.

 

I'm not saying the EDL as a whole is going to turn into a terrorist organisation; but it's a haven for far-right Islamophobes, some of whom have shown themselves to be violent and more than willing to attack mosques and Muslims themselves.