Woolwich

[Guest Bilo]

And the press couldn't wait to equate that to the far-right could they. They weren't lone nutters.

 

In fact they even mention David Copeland on the BBC half the time when the BNP is still mentioned now despite him leaving the party for them being 'too political'.

 

Didn't he leave because he felt they didn't go far enough and then joined C18 or the RVF?

 

It's been ages since I last heard of him. 

[Guest MattP]

If members of it start attacking Muslims per se, they can.

 

I'm not saying the EDL as a whole is going to turn into a terrorist organisation; but it's a haven for far-right Islamophobes, some of whom have shown themselves to be violent and more than willing to attack mosques and Muslims themselves.

 

Sorry but I just can't agree.

 

I wouldn't expect people to start excusing me/making excuses if I started bombing Mosques after a few Muslims attacked me in the street.

Didn't he leave because he felt they didn't go far enough and then joined C18 or the RVF?

 

It's been ages since I last heard of him. 

 

'They weren't interested in getting anything done' I think was the quote in the Police tapes.

[Guest Bilo]

Sorry but I just can't agree.

 

I wouldn't expect people to start excusing me/making excuses if I started bombing Mosques after a few Muslims attacked me in the street.

 

'They weren't interested in getting anything done' I think was the quote in the Police tapes.

 

 

It's not about making excuses.

 

It's the fact that this particular attack seems to have stirred up some very strong emotions, and understandably so I suppose.

 

The EDL weren't about in 2005 so couldn't act as a vessel for this kind of hatred post 7/7, they now seem able to do so. 

 

We now have an openly anti-Muslim mass street movement that can attract hundreds, even thousands, of anti-Muslim protesters almost overnight. They were violent and had people attacking mosques, Muslims, and even Halal chicken restaurants before this murder. How hard will it be for rogue elements to take the level of violence up to the next level now, given the level of anger that's been brought about by this? 

 

If these rogue elements were to be particularly provocative by attacking a mosque during Friday prayers, racking up casualties in the process, there's only one way that could end in my opinion. That would do more to radicalise moderate Muslims than any parasite like Choudary or foolish foreign escapade ever could in the short and possibly medium term. 

 

Does any of this mean the EDL should be banned? No, we're in a democracy after all however distasteful they are. Does it mean we should keep a close eye on them as we do hardline Islamists? Yes it does. 

 

Complacency isn't an option.

[Guest MattP]

Whilst there is no doubt that they have been violent and aggresive at demonstrations (towards those vile bastards from the UAF etc from what I've seen rather than Muslims though), I've seen no evidence that EDL members have been attacking Mosques?

 

Complacency isn't an option on anything anymore, personally as I have stated I think we are all fcuked and this will carry on for time now and we will have major regret of our immigration policies regarding Islamic integration over the last 20-30 years, but we do have to try and bring peace of course.

 

We also have to make sure we can criticise aspects of Islam without being labelled as Islamophobes etc, if you keep doing that you will drive as many people into the arms of the EDL as the Muslim extremists do.

 

If somebody wants to call Islam and it's teachings a wicked and vile faith and you believe it has no place in a Western democracy, they should be allowed to express that opinion without the government trying to throw them in jail for it.

 

But as long as we pussyfoot around everything I think more people will resort to extremist groups. Let's hope I'm wrong.

[Finnegan]

Defends the EDL, calls the UAF vile bastards. Ugh.

[Guest MattP]

Defends the EDL, calls the UAF vile bastards. Ugh.

 

Both groups full of vile ill-educated morons intent on confrontation with no concept of moderation.

 

Not defending the EDL, just haven't read any stories of them attacking Mosques.

[Guest Bilo]

There are members like that in the UAF, no denying that, but the majority I met at the 2010 EDL counter demo had their hearts in the right place and were thoroughly decent people. 

 

By contrast, the EDL strutted around our city looking for 'Muslim cvnts who needed a kicking' and throwing missiles at the counter demo.

[Guest MattP]

There are members like that in the UAF, no denying that, but the majority I met at the 2010 EDL counter demo had their hearts in the right place and were thoroughly decent people. 

 

By contrast, the EDL strutted around our city looking for 'Muslim cvnts who needed a kicking' and throwing missiles at the counter demo.

 

I remember reading in The Times since the start of these 'demos' between the two more UAF members have been arrested than EDL.

 

I drink with a couple of guys who attend these protests as well, both good people but wouldn't it be great is the UAF turned up to counter all Fascist protests rather than just ones held by white people?, never seen them countering an MAC or a Al-Muhajiroun one.

 

Any ideas why?

[Guest Bilo]

I remember reading in The Times since the start of these 'demos' between the two more UAF members have been arrested than EDL.

 

I drink with a couple of guys who attend these protests as well, both good people but wouldn't it be great is the UAF turned up to counter all Fascist protests rather than just ones held by white people?, never seen them countering an MAC or a Al-Muhajiroun one.

 

Any ideas why?

 

That's an interesting point, and one of the points of divergence between my views and those of UAF as a whole.

 

I see all fascism, racism and segregation as vile irrespective of who it comes from. The UAF seem a little woolly on racism when it comes from those who aren't white, which frustrates me.

 

As for countering an MAC protest; I wouldn't feel too comfortable with standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the EDL, something which would undoubtedly be the reality. 

[Guest MattP]

That's an interesting point, and one of the points of divergence between my views and those of UAF as a whole.

 

I see all fascism, racism and segregation as vile irrespective of who it comes from. The UAF seem a little woolly on racism when it comes from those who aren't white, which frustrates me.

 

As for countering an MAC protest; I wouldn't feel too comfortable with standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the EDL, something which would undoubtedly be the reality. 

 

Fair enough, wouldn't it be great to see a counter protest against the MAC and EDL together though? All extremism out, that's the angle you would think they would take but like I've said for some reason they seem absolutely fine with any sort of racism or fascism from people who aren't White or Jewish.

 

Don't you know if you watched the doc on 4 a while back when the Muslims in the UAF started fighting with Peter Tatchell when he produced his banner at a UAF/EDL march in Tower Hamlets that mentioned his homosexuality?, that showed the clear divisions within the faction about what they are really fighting against.

 

Even the 'whites' there told Tatchell to leave as he was inflaming tensions, what kind of a Liberal society is that to fight and protest for?

[Dr The Singh]

Defends the EDL, calls the UAF vile bastards. Ugh.

Both are bad as each other from my experience

[howlinmadmurfdoc]

Both are bad as each other from my experience

What he said.

[Strokes]

Well time will tell but what is happening now has been simmering under the surfice of our society. There comes a point when people are forced to admit that we have a problem in our society from one particular group, and we have admit that group comes from a particular religion ie Islam.

Was it the jews who did the bombing on 7/7 ? was it the christians who ran down a defenseless soldier and beheaded him in the street ? was it the hindus who burned poppy's on rememberance day ? does any other religion in this country pour scorn and preach hatred for the country they now live in in their religious holy places ?

To ignore what is happening to our country through the threat of islamic radicalisation is the most foolish thing we could possibly do , because if the public do not see a strong responce from our government on this issue it is inevitable they will take matters into their own hands , and God help us all if that happens.

Well made point.

its clearly not all muslims its a tiny proportion committing terrible atrocities but it is a muslim problem and while we are not even comfortable discussing it, it will divide us. We need help from the muslim community to oust these radicals and the powers to deal with them before it gets to this stage otherwise we will find radicals forming amounst ourselves. Open the debate, clear the table and unite to protect our way of life.

Also anyone talking about banning religion, do you not understand to have freedom of speech you must also have a free mind?

[BoneDog]

We need help from the muslim community to oust these radicals and the powers to deal with them before it gets to this stage otherwise we will find radicals forming amounst ourselves. 

Also anyone talking about banning religion, do you not understand to have freedom of speech you must also have a free mind?

 

Totally agree with your second point there.

 

I don't think the Muslim community could really help much in dealing with terrorism though. The security forces are likely to know far more about any threats than the average Muslim does. All radical/extremist leaders inside our borders are well known to MI5, but are allowed to continue their hate speech. Choudary and his ilk are likely assets of intelligence agencies if recent history is anything to go by. I haven't heard of one terrorist this century who wasn't known to the powers that be.

 

99.99% of Muslims are not terrorists and know nothing of any plots.

[Finnegan]

Totally agree with your second point there.

 

I don't think the Muslim community could really help much in dealing with terrorism though. The security forces are likely to know far more about any threats than the average Muslim does. All radical/extremist leaders inside our borders are well known to MI5, but are allowed to continue their hate speech. Choudary and his ilk are likely assets of intelligence agencies if recent history is anything to go by. I haven't heard of one terrorist this century who wasn't known to the powers that be.

 

99.99% of Muslims are not terrorists and know nothing of any plots.

 

Hard to disagree with any of that really.

 

Don't think I agree that the Islamic community can't help, however. Not necessarily in identifying individuals but in helping to counter the hate-preaching of Choudary and co' and by helping to build bridges with the wider community in this country to fight the negative image of Islam that perpetuates ignorant, anti-Islamic hate and gives extremists their ammunition to 'convert.'

[DennisNedry]

I didn't think it deserved another thread, but it is linked with this one.

 

On the subject of the thug who spray painted 'ISLAM' on the RAF WW2 memorial (an act that will disgust any decent minded individual including the majority of muslims), does anybody not see the irony?

 

For if we hadn't won the war and defeated the Nazis, the thug and all other muslims would not exist by now, because they'd have been on the extermination list after the jews were finished off.

[Jaspa]

I didn't think it deserved another thread, but it is linked with this one.

 

On the subject of the thug who spray painted 'ISLAM' on the RAF WW2 memorial (an act that will disgust any decent minded individual including the majority of muslims), does anybody not see the irony?

 

For if we hadn't won the war and defeated the Nazis, the thug and all other muslims would not exist by now, because they'd have been on the extermination list after the jews were finished off.

 

I saw that and said 'Thats just what some idiot EDL fan would do to stir up more hate'

 

Anyone who would do that would have to be an idiot anyway

[I am Rod Hull]

I didn't think it deserved another thread, but it is linked with this one.

 

On the subject of the thug who spray painted 'ISLAM' on the RAF WW2 memorial (an act that will disgust any decent minded individual including the majority of muslims), does anybody not see the irony?

 

For if we hadn't won the war and defeated the Nazis, the thug and all other muslims would not exist by now, because they'd have been on the extermination list after the jews were finished off.

 

Muslims fought along side the Nazis in WWII.

[Rincewind]

Muslims fought along side the Nazis in WWII.

They also wanted Britain on their side and America was close to going against Britain.

[Harry - LCFC]

Anyone watching Question Time?

 

Discussing how the UK combats terrorism. Suggested that our foreign policy is contributing to it, most of the terrorists we capture say they are angry about the events in Afghanistan. Personally I think our own actions are the primary cause, if we reduced the damage we caused in 'Muslim countries' so to speak there would be less anger and radicalism amongst certain groups.

[DennisNedry]

Anyone watching Question Time?

 

Discussing how the UK combats terrorism. Suggested that our foreign policy is contributing to it, most of the terrorists we capture say they are angry about the events in Afghanistan. Personally I think our own actions are the primary cause, if we reduced the damage we caused in 'Muslim countries' so to speak there would be less anger and radicalism amongst certain groups.

 

Extremists muslim bombs in Mosques/markets/roadsides etc kill far more civilians in the middle east than British soldiers or missile strikes do.

 

 

Muslims fought along side the Nazis in WWII.

 

The Nazis would have taken any assistance they could get (as would we), but had Germany won the war, Muslims were hardly going to be part of the perfect master race were they?

 

They also wanted Britain on their side and America was close to going against Britain.

[Harry - LCFC]

Extremists muslim bombs in Mosques/markets/roadsides etc kill far more civilians in the middle east than British soldiers or missile strikes do.

 

Yes, I'm well aware of it.

 

Try and give that info to the extremists. It doesn't make them any less angry, they blame us rightly or wrongly. If we weren't acting in the manner we are then perhaps there'd be less extremists targeting us today.

[Strokes]

Yes, I'm well aware of it.

Try and give that info to the extremists. It doesn't make them any less angry, they blame us rightly or wrongly. If we weren't acting in the manner we are then perhaps there'd be less extremists targeting us today.

That might be true and used in hindsight, but you can't action anything based on it. It sends out totally the wrong message.

[Webbo]

9/11 happened before the second gulf war or Afghanistan. The first gulf war liberated a muslim state Kuwait from Baathist, secular Iraq. 

[breadandcheese]

Anyone watching Question Time?

 

Discussing how the UK combats terrorism. Suggested that our foreign policy is contributing to it, most of the terrorists we capture say they are angry about the events in Afghanistan. Personally I think our own actions are the primary cause, if we reduced the damage we caused in 'Muslim countries' so to speak there would be less anger and radicalism amongst certain groups.

 

I think this is where the most important response should be, but in robustly defending what we're doing in Afghanistan.  It is the radicalised muslim groups that kill the most muslims around the world.  UN stats show that in 2009, 2010 and 2011, the Taliban caused 76%, 75% and 80% of all civilian casualties in Afghanistan.  It is the Taliban and other extreme radical islamist groups that kill muslim men, women and children around the world.

 

El Empty mentioned earlier that only a tiny minute percentage of muslims know anything about any terrorist plots and he's right, so there's not much they can do there.  However, where I believe they can help is with challenging the narrative put out by the likes of Choudery and Al-Muhajiroun, that British forces are murderers killing muslim men, women and children with impunity.  

 

Not withstanding that muslim men and women have served and do serve our armed forces with distinction, but the question is do they agree with foreign policy?  I think if you look at our foreign policy, it stands up in Afghanistan.  Do British Muslims really support the Taliban?  The Taliban are a totalitarian regime that banned girls from education after the age of 8.  Would any British muslim really want their daughters or sisters growing up under a regime like that?  Of course not, the way of life under the Taliban is I imagine as horrifying to a British muslim as non-muslim.  Our forces are attempting to protect a fledgling democracy and battle a Taliban insurgency, an insurgency that we've seen from the figures and reports thinks very little of civilians, killing muslim men, women and children.  There was even that horrific shooting of the poor 13 year old schoolgirl for speaking out in support of female education.

 

Yet despite this, the narrative is that British forces murder muslim men, women and children with impunity.  If the narrative was challenged, maybe there would be less people being attracted to the extreme elements of the community with less people becoming radicalised.  The narrative needs to be the truth that the biggest murderer of muslims in the world today are the extremist groups.  Facts and figures bear this out.