Woolwich

[Guest MattP]

But so what, they cant make them leave unless they commit certain crimes so its all hot air.

Does make me laugh the endless comments on the daily mail site about how we should tackle immigration like Australia does, despite the fact they have higher levels of immigration that we do....no sure the dail mail readers would be happy with more immigrants. .

Completely missing the point Ron.

No one is moaning about immigration. Its the class of immigrants and who you let in thats the problem.

[leicsmac]

Limp wristed doesn't even cover it. Some ridiculous comparisons.

Had the diversity brigade got their way it would still be going on. Starting to wonder if it is a more sinister agenda.

Peter Tatchell was superb on the radio last night. A liberal tolerant society can simply not co exist with a remotly large Islamic population.

 

So this is a certainty in all cases? 

 

As for being more sinister...politicians will do anything to get themselves votes but I'd like to think most folk simply want the scum to be filtered out rather than an entire demographic being demonised. 

 

On another note, I think this argument is getting circular now as no one is going to give ground and we're covering the same points over and over.

[Bayfox]

Oz may have higher immigration. But can i move to oz. No as you have to be a teacher or refridgeration engineer.

Not any old scum.

[purpleronnie]

Completely missing the point Ron.

No one is moaning about immigration. Its the class of immigrants and who you let in thats the problem.

 

Not really the PM was stating that muslims should adhere to the australian way of life if not they should leave, but its hot air he cant make them.

 

Plus we also have a point system for non EU immigrants.

[Captain...]

Muslim Leaders Condemn Woolwich killers: 

 

Muslim Council of Britain: http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2333:pr-template&catid=40:press-release

 

London: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22662863

 

Leicester: http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Leicester-s-Muslim-leaders-condemn-Woolwich/story-19068681-detail/story.html#axzz2UIwZ6QJI

 

 

Cheltenham: http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Cheltenham-Muslims-condemn-Woolwich-attack/story-19077855-detail/story.html#axzz2UIwRQ0at

 

Portsmouth: http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/portsmouth-muslim-leaders-condemn-woolwich-atrocity-1-5119619

 

Kingston: http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/10438269.Kingston_Muslims_condemn_Woolwich_machete_attack/

 

Oxford: http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10438013.Muslims_in_Oxfordshire_condemn_Woolwich_killing/

 

Newham: http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/court-crime/newham_muslim_leaders_condemn_woolwich_attacks_don_t_tarnish_a_whole_community_because_of_two_criminals_1_2207481

 

Nigerian Muslim Association: http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/woolwich-attack-nigerian-muslims-condemn-barbaric-murder

 

Crawley: http://ahmadiyyatimes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/uk-crawley-muslim-president-condemns.html

 

Cambridge: http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Cambridge/Woolwich-attack-Cambridgeshire-Muslim-group-condemns-brutal-attack-on-British-soldier-20130523100529.htm

 

West Suffolk: http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/west_suffolk_muslim_leader_who_worked_in_woolwich_condemns_horrific_attack_1_2207435

 

East London: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2013/may/24/woolwich-muslim-reaction-video

 

Newport: http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/10439162.Newport_Muslims_join_condemnation_of_Woolwich_killing/

 

I could go on, I got to page 2 and then decided to stop for lunch, but it is all here: https://www.google.co.uk/#q=muslims+condemn+woolwich&ei=RKegUYO4DfSr0gWjm4G4CQ&start=20&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=972a1a058ca8fd72&biw=1034&bih=875

 

It just doesn't make as good a headline.

[Guest MattP]

Muslim Leaders Condemn Woolwich killers:

Muslim Council of Britain: http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2333:pr-template&catid=40:press-release

London: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22662863

Leicester: http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Leicester-s-Muslim-leaders-condemn-Woolwich/story-19068681-detail/story.html#axzz2UIwZ6QJI

Cheltenham: http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Cheltenham-Muslims-condemn-Woolwich-attack/story-19077855-detail/story.html#axzz2UIwRQ0at

Portsmouth: http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/portsmouth-muslim-leaders-condemn-woolwich-atrocity-1-5119619

Kingston: http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/10438269.Kingston_Muslims_condemn_Woolwich_machete_attack/

Oxford: http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/10438013.Muslims_in_Oxfordshire_condemn_Woolwich_killing/

Newham: http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/court-crime/newham_muslim_leaders_condemn_woolwich_attacks_don_t_tarnish_a_whole_community_because_of_two_criminals_1_2207481

Nigerian Muslim Association: http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/woolwich-attack-nigerian-muslims-condemn-barbaric-murder

Crawley: http://ahmadiyyatimes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/uk-crawley-muslim-president-condemns.html

Cambridge: http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Cambridge/Woolwich-attack-Cambridgeshire-Muslim-group-condemns-brutal-attack-on-British-soldier-20130523100529.htm

West Suffolk: http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/west_suffolk_muslim_leader_who_worked_in_woolwich_condemns_horrific_attack_1_2207435

East London: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2013/may/24/woolwich-muslim-reaction-video

Newport: http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/10439162.Newport_Muslims_join_condemnation_of_Woolwich_killing/

I could go on.

Fantastic.

Now lets hope they can get control of the inams and mosques who preach this hate. That would be a hundred times more useful than the condemnation.

[Guest MattP]

So this is a certainty in all cases?

As for being more sinister...politicians will do anything to get themselves votes but I'd like to think most folk simply want the scum to be filtered out rather than an entire demographic being demonised.

On another note, I think this argument is getting circular now as no one is going to give ground and we're covering the same points over and over.

No idea. It was Tatchells quote.

Ive only been to 4-5 Islamic countries. Do you know one that tolerates homosexuality?

[Captain...]

No idea. It was Tatchells quote.

Ive only been to 4-5 Islamic countries. Do you know one that tolerates homosexuality?

 

Turkey, it is not illegal, but same sex marriages and unions are.

[leicsmac]

No idea. It was Tatchells quote.

Ive only been to 4-5 Islamic countries. Do you know one that tolerates homosexuality?

 

No. 

 

And if I had my way religion would have no business in the running of government or making of laws in this day and age anywhere.

 

But at the same time, I believe most strongly in freedom to practise that religion, as long as doing so doesn't break laws. 

 

Secular governance, but with religious freedom.

 

 

Fantastic.

Now lets hope they can get control of the inams and mosques who preach this hate. That would be a hundred times more useful than the condemnation.

 

Agree with this, as I've written here before. The solution is going to come from within the Muslim community.

[Guest MattP]

Turkey, it is not illegal, but same sex marriages and unions are.

If Turkey is the best example of an Islamic country for homosexuality I think we can all agree its not compatible.

[Guest MattP]

No.

And if I had my way religion would have no business in the running of government or making of laws in this day and age anywhere.

But at the same time, I believe most strongly in freedom to practise that religion, as long as doing so doesn't break laws.

Secular governance, but with religious freedom.

Agree with this, as I've written here before. The solution is going to come from within the Muslim community.

I agree with everything you have written. But why despite all this do you continue to encourage and support immigration of people who are totally incompatible with it?

[Steven]

Slavery is immoral, worshipping a God is not, regardless of what other lunatics do wrongly in the name of that God. 

 

The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.

 

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

 

 

[Mack]

It's interesting the MI5 are wrapped up in this whole saga.

And indeed sound like they had a lot of face to face communication with at least one of these murderers.

From what I have read their involvement with this pair only made their resolve to commit radical action stronger.

[leicsmac]

I agree with everything you have written. But why despite all this do you continue to encourage and support immigration of people who are totally incompatible with it?

 

I don't believe I have said or even insinuated that. If it appears that I have, then allow me to clarify.

 

I support immigration of any demographic, so long as they abide by the laws that have been set. If those laws are broken, then the cases are dealt with under penalty of law individually. Lock them up or throw them out - your choice.  

 

I'm very much for individual responsibility here - malign, hateful nutters only represent themselves, regardless of what ideological dogma they choose to spout. Whether it's Choudary spouting bile at a mosque in London, McVeigh blowing up an office building, two nutjobs beheading a British soldier or Breivek gunning down kids they are only representative of themselves and should be dealt with accordingly. 

[Captain...]

It's interesting the MI5 are wrapped up in this whole saga.

And indeed sound like they had a lot of face to face communication with at least one of these murderers.

From what I have read their involvement with this pair only made their resolve to commit radical action stronger.

That is how I read it as well, he was detained in Kenya, abused, (possibly deliberately to soften him up for an approach to spy) approached to work for MI5, but flipped the other way to extremism.

He was probably being watched, but such a primitive attack requires no planning and cannot be traced or predicted.

[Captain...]

Fantastic.

Now lets hope they can get control of the inams and mosques who preach this hate. That would be a hundred times more useful than the condemnation.

Front page Headline it the Guardian today.

'Crackdown on hate preachers'

Sub heading: Muslims urge creation of list of banned speakers.

[Dr The Singh]

Oz may have higher immigration. But can i move to oz. No as you have to be a teacher or refridgeration engineer.

Not any old scum.

I went to oz a month ago for work, firstly the country is underpopulated it needs alot of labour class and skilled class person.  secondly the white natives are not reproducing enough, in 50 years the immigrant population will take over. Oz may look lovely now, but give it a few years.........................

 

UK, has plently of unskilled labour and is well populated, we do however lack skilled labour, and as a comparison, the natives are reproducing at a acceptable rate.  The problem is that the 'open borders' has brought over alot of the wrong type of immigrants

[Captain...]

the white natives

Albino aborigines?

[Dr The Singh]

Albino aborigines?

 

I should have said thieves

[Trav Le Bleu]

Completely missing the point Ron.

No one is moaning about immigration. Its the class of immigrants and who you let in thats the problem.

 

Was thinking on this the other day and your comments of immigration, which I do get, has the qualifer you mention of the "quality" of immigrants and something quite pointed occured to me.

 

In general, people of the whole world tend to love their birthplace unless they are affected by violence and poverty there; therefore the vast majority of immigrants are down-trodden people of little education or wealth. This is of course a broadly sweeping statement, within any demographic there will be outstanding (both good and bad) individuals. The numbers of successful people who want to leave their homeland to settle elsewhere is tiny by comparison.

 

Whilst there are essentially ghetto-ised estates of immigrants developing, you can just as easily find whole estates of British people who have sponged off the state for their whole lives. At least the immigrants don't have settees in their overgrown garden swigging special brew as the world passes them by (did I mention the rusty car with the 1998 tax disc in the window?)

 

If we're talking quality, we can just as easily ship plenty of British people out.

[theessexfox]

 

What point are you trying to make? Are you telling me that slavery is moral, and worshipping a God is not? 

[The Year Of The Fox]

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.
His references to past histor...y are accurate and clear.
Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.
The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.


A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people..

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario , and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.

In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem (see the attachment), just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go†zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

[Bettsj2]

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.

His references to past histor...y are accurate and clear.

Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.

The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people..

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario , and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.

In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem (see the attachment), just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go†zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

I thought you said it wasnt long?

[The Year Of The Fox]

I thought you said it wasnt long?

I copied and pasted this off Facebook

[Captain...]

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.

His references to past histor...y are accurate and clear.

Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.

The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people..

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario , and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.

In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem (see the attachment), just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go†zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Firstly the warning from history is more relevant to our own nationalist parties seizing power, than Muslims, the warnings were all from political ideology not religious, I know Islam is tied up with politics in some countries but not here.

Secondly the peaceful Muslim majority are not keeping silent, they have all stood up and condemned what happened in woolwich, as they do after every terrorist attack, it is just the media give much more attention to the words of 2 killers than millions of Muslims. They are not silent, they are just not being given the voice their numbers deserve by the media.

Thirdly Islam in Africa and third world countries is very different to Islam in the developed world, same as Christianity in Africa is, they are much more extreme, examples beingf violence towards homosexuals in Uganda as one example off the top of my head. Or Joseph Kony and the Lord's Resistance Army.

The halal meat thing is another red herring and is done for convenience not some tin foil hatted conspiracy nonsense, if there was a much larger Jewish population it would be kosher.

Edit: interesting that it brings up Rwanda, which was horrendous genocide and civil war between Tutsi's and Hutu's, yet nobody brings us their religious leanings, incidentally both Christian.