What has life taught you?

[leicsmac]

But we don't have an unlimited supply of money so the money we do spend has to be used as efficiently as possible. The money spend on the NHS should be spent in most part on treating patients not reducing the workload of the staff and increasing bureaucracy.

 

I'm pretty sure frontline NHS staff work damn hard.

 

Defo agree with you about saving money by reducing bureaucracy though.

[Webbo]

I'm pretty sure frontline NHS staff work damn hard.

 

Defo agree with you about saving money by reducing bureaucracy though.

Like everywhere else, some do some don't.

[MikeyT]

There are certain things you just have to let go of. No matter how much you need them. 

[leicsmac]

Like everywhere else, some do some don't.

 

Surely most people got into the NHS (or the frontline services part of it anyway) because they wanted to help people and that remains a significant motivator for them? There are far easier jobs that pay the same.

 

I'm sure there's some people in there that don't pull their weight (organisation that big there has to be) but I reckon it's a fair few less than most other places.

[Captain...]

here we hit the main problem with any ideology that supports big government.

if a government is to have centralised power over the economy and the lives of its people, then you need to make sure the right person is in charge. unfortunately this man/woman does not exist, there is no man on a white horse to vote in who will solve all our problems.

even if this person existed and they got into power and sorted everything out, they would not be in power forever. after they had gone they would leave a large centralised power structure available for the next person to abuse for personal gain or run inefficiently despite good intentions.

it would leave a large bureaucracy, and as we know from our current government bureaucracy and those of large corporations, bureaucracies are exspensive and self serving.   

 

Well this is the problem with communism, as a principle it isn't flawed, the problem is human beings are.

 

The same can be said about capitalism, too much corruption and collusion and power in the big businesses and powerful individuals, we need a government to regulate and stop big business and powerful individuals getting too much power and protect the public, not suck up to them and allow them to avoid paying taxes.

[leicsmac]

There are certain things you just have to let go of. No matter how much you need them. 

 

And some things you have to hold on to.

 

Difficult part is picking which is which.

[leicsmac]

Well this is the problem with communism, as a principle it isn't flawed, the problem is human beings are.

 

The same can be said about capitalism, too much corruption and collusion and power in the big businesses and powerful individuals, we need a government to regulate and stop big business and powerful individuals getting too much power and protect the public, not suck up to them and allow them to avoid paying taxes.

 

Playing Devils Advocate here, you can't let a government get too powerful either. There has to be a balance and a bulwark against any small group attaining too much power. 

 

Problem is now powerful businesses and Government have become so intertwined one can no longer act as a check against the other.

[Captain...]

Playing Devils Advocate here, you can't let a government get too powerful either. There has to be a balance and a bulwark against any small group attaining too much power. 

 

Problem is now powerful businesses and Government have become so intertwined one can no longer act as a check against the other.

 

Completely agree, that applies to trade unions as well as big businesses.

[Rincewind]

You will not be able to squander your wealth when you are dead.

 

[Webbo]

Surely most people got into the NHS (or the frontline services part of it anyway) because they wanted to help people and that remains a significant motivator for them? There are far easier jobs that pay the same.

 

I'm sure there's some people in there that don't pull their weight (organisation that big there has to be) but I reckon it's a fair few less than most other places.

But because it's so much harder to get rid of someone in the public sector it means they can get away with it, management just hire more staff to cover the shortfall rather than sort out the problem whereas a private company couldn't afford to.

[The God Emperor]

Well this is the problem with communism, as a principle it isn't flawed, the problem is human beings are.

 

The same can be said about capitalism, too much corruption and collusion and power in the big businesses and powerful individuals, we need a government to regulate and stop big business and powerful individuals getting too much power and protect the public, not suck up to them and allow them to avoid paying taxes.

now your speaking my language   . I'm not an anarchist, we need a government. we need one to provide a judicial system that prevents people from using force against one another, make sure that people upheld and honour contracts between each other and protect joe bloggs from being abused by the big guy.

the system we have now, corporatism or as I prefer to call it fascist economics, protects corruption in big business and government.

when big business and the government get into bed with each other its never good for the man on the street as we have seen with the banking crisis and the way its aftermath was handled.

this is why I prefer a free market with light regulations, keeps the big guys from working together to the detriment of the little guy   

[leicsmac]

But because it's so much harder to get rid of someone in the public sector it means they can get away with it, management just hire more staff to cover the shortfall rather than sort out the problem whereas a private company couldn't afford to.

 

Would rather have them doing any kind of job as part of a team than doing nothing at all on benefits. I'm a fan of mass employment.

 

I know the private sector follows the Darwinian ideal of business, but that's only OK if pure incompetence is the only reason for someone ending up out of a job.

[The People's Hero]

Those not in work who claim to want a job should be put to work on public works, clearing drains, cleaning graffiti off buildings etc etc, all for the public good. I'd be happy for them to receive more than their standard benefit, it gets them out doing work and they might even get a permanent position.

 

But of course no one would apply since its a bit too much like hard work, and they like their free money for nothing in return, ta very much.

[Zingari]

now your speaking my language   . I'm not an anarchist, we need a government. we need one to provide a judicial system that prevents people from using force against one another, make sure that people upheld and honour contracts between each other and protect joe bloggs from being abused by the big guy.

the system we have now, corporatism or as I prefer to call it fascist economics, protects corruption in big business and government.

when big business and the government get into bed with each other its never good for the man on the street as we have seen with the banking crisis and the way its aftermath was handled.

this is why I prefer a free market with light regulations, keeps the big guys from working together to the detriment of the little guy   

i like this , there's much truthe here

Those not in work who claim to want a job should be put to work on public works, clearing drains, cleaning graffiti off buildings etc etc, all for the public good. I'd be happy for them to receive more than their standard benefit, it gets them out doing work and they might even get a permanent position.

 

But of course no one would apply since its a bit too much like hard work, and they like their free money for nothing in return, ta very much.

If no one wants to do it , why are people employed to do it now ? 

There are people cleaning out drains right now , who the fook do you think does it ?

 

What you're actually saying is that you want it done cheaper by a conscripted labour force.

[Captain...]

Would rather have them doing any kind of job as part of a team than doing nothing at all on benefits. I'm a fan of mass employment.

 

I know the private sector follows the Darwinian ideal of business, but that's only OK if pure incompetence is the only reason for some ending up out of a job.

 

Exactly, this is why we need to be very careful going forwards, technology is fast making many jobs redundant, especially unskilled jobs.

[The People's Hero]

 

What you're actually saying is that you want it done cheaper by a conscripted labour force.

 

That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

Ok, people are employed to clean out drains - but yet down my way there are still plenty more that need doing. 

 

Equally, there is so much graffiti and generally untidy public areas which just need tidying up and smartening up. 

 

Why not put these people to use? We are currently giving them free money? Their mouthpieces on here reckon they are all desperate to work ( !!!! ) so here is an opportunity. Get some self-esteem, earn a few extra quid, make a few contacts....

 

I can't believe you are finding negatives in what I'm saying.

 

If no one would put themselves forward, fair enough - but then why should they keep getting benefit? I'm only talking about the able-bodied here. I'm not going to tip a pensioner out of his wheelchair and force him to climb a ladder and scrub obscenities off a wall.

 

What is so ridiculous or unpalatable in what I'm saying? Lets get to the crux of it and stop hiding behind this pretend stuff that all the scroungers actually really want to work.

[leicsmac]

Those not in work who claim to want a job should be put to work on public works, clearing drains, cleaning graffiti off buildings etc etc, all for the public good. I'd be happy for them to receive more than their standard benefit, it gets them out doing work and they might even get a permanent position.

 

But of course no one would apply since its a bit too much like hard work, and they like their free money for nothing in return, ta very much.

 

As long as they got paid the same as workers doing the same jobs do now I'd actually have no problem with this, as long as they could gain meaningful experience to go on with.

[Captain...]

If no one wants to do it , why are people employed to do it now ? 

There are people cleaning out drains right now , who the fook do you think does it ?

 

What you're actually saying is that you want it done cheaper by a conscripted labour force.

 

No he's just bellyaching about the scroungers again, people getting something for nothing blah blah entitlement culture, blah blah, they are getting something for nothing why can't I blah blah.

 

It's been discussed to death on here, specifically that point, there has been more than one thread hijacked and a whole thread dedicated to it, started by TPH.

 

Things that I have learnt, people with a chip on their shoulder are boring.

[Zingari]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

Ok, people are employed to clean out drains - but yet down my way there are still plenty more that need doing. 

 

Equally, there is so much graffiti and generally untidy public areas which just need tidying up and smartening up. 

 

Why not put these people to use? We are currently giving them free money? Their mouthpieces on here reckon they are all desperate to work ( !!!! ) so here is an opportunity. Get some self-esteem, earn a few extra quid, make a few contacts....

 

I can't believe you are finding negatives in what I'm saying.

 

If no one would put themselves forward, fair enough - but then why should they keep getting benefit? I'm only talking about the able-bodied here. I'm not going to tip a pensioner out of his wheelchair and force him to climb a ladder and scrub obscenities off a wall.

 

What is so ridiculous or unpalatable in what I'm saying? Lets get to the crux of it and stop hiding behind this pretend stuff that all the scroungers actually really want to work.

why not employ them on the wages set out to do the job ?

[The People's Hero]

As long as they got paid the same as workers doing the same jobs do now I'd actually have no problem with this, as long as they could gain meaningful experience to go on with.

 

Even if paid less than those who are currently employed to do it, they should take it?

We are constantly told over and over again that these people are desperate to work and indeed need to be involved with something positive, for their self esteem.

 

Why should they have the right to be picky about the job or the income? This is what makes me sick. Money for nothing - and society can ask for NOTHING in return?!!!

 

Anyone who turned it down should have 20% lopped off their benefits.

[Zingari]

No he's just bellyaching about the scroungers again, people getting something for nothing blah blah entitlement culture, blah blah, they are getting something for nothing why can't I blah blah.

 

It's been discussed to death on here, specifically that point, there has been more than one thread hijacked and a whole thread dedicated to it, started by TPH.

 

Things that I have learnt, people with a chip on their shoulder are boring.

He seems a very bright bloke but I think posters such as yourself could convince him he's just plain wrong in this instance 

[leicsmac]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

Ok, people are employed to clean out drains - but yet down my way there are still plenty more that need doing. 

 

Equally, there is so much graffiti and generally untidy public areas which just need tidying up and smartening up. 

 

Why not put these people to use? We are currently giving them free money? Their mouthpieces on here reckon they are all desperate to work ( !!!! ) so here is an opportunity. Get some self-esteem, earn a few extra quid, make a few contacts....

 

I can't believe you are finding negatives in what I'm saying.

 

If no one would put themselves forward, fair enough - but then why should they keep getting benefit? I'm only talking about the able-bodied here. I'm not going to tip a pensioner out of his wheelchair and force him to climb a ladder and scrub obscenities off a wall.

 

What is so ridiculous or unpalatable in what I'm saying? Lets get to the crux of it and stop hiding behind this pretend stuff that all the scroungers actually really want to work.

 

I think most of the unemployed population of this country want to work, and their number dwarfs that of serial benefit scroungers.

 

I'm for harsh treatment if they're turning down jobs all and sundry when directly offered, but how often is that the case? 

 

As I said above, agree with the principle of what you're saying with a couple of caveats, though.

[Rincewind]

now your speaking my language   . I'm not an anarchist, we need a government. we need one to provide a judicial system that prevents people from using force against one another, make sure that people upheld and honour contracts between each other and protect joe bloggs from being abused by the big guy.

the system we have now, corporatism or as I prefer to call it fascist economics, protects corruption in big business and government.

when big business and the government get into bed with each other its never good for the man on the street as we have seen with the banking crisis and the way its aftermath was handled.

this is why I prefer a free market with light regulations, keeps the big guys from working together to the detriment of the little guy   

I'm not an anarchist either but you have made some good points. For instance as the gagging law stands Rupet Murdoch can hand over a few quid to support a party of his choice yet a small group campaigning against or for something like fracking in their area (rightly or wrongly) would not be able to do so if fracking was an  election issue.

 

[Zingari]

Even if paid less than those who are currently employed to do it, they should take it?

We are constantly told over and over again that these people are desperate to work and indeed need to be involved with something positive, for their self esteem.

 

Why should they have the right to be picky about the job or the income? This is what makes me sick. Money for nothing - and society can ask for NOTHING in return?!!!

 

Anyone who turned it down should have 20% lopped off their benefits.

anyone who keeps coming out with this stuff should have 20% lopped off their manhood 

 

(and that would be quite a sizable bit in my case)   

[The People's Hero]

No he's just bellyaching about the scroungers again, people getting something for nothing blah blah entitlement culture, blah blah, they are getting something for nothing why can't I blah blah.

 

It's been discussed to death on here, specifically that point, there has been more than one thread hijacked and a whole thread dedicated to it, started by TPH.

 

Things that I have learnt, people with a chip on their shoulder are boring.

 

There are none so blind and those who don't want to see.

 

If its chips on shoulders we're talking about, you want to have a word with your fellow bleedin' 'art liberal, Rincewind.

 

You'd have us all taking from the public pot and it'd still take you 6 months to work out why it would be empty - there would be no one left paying in to it.

 

I see you've countered none of my points by the way - your debating skills are pretty poor - and I reckon its probably because you lack the answers. Welcome to try to put me wrong. I won't hold my breath.