Acpo issues 'drunk tanks' call to tackle disorder

[davieG]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24135219

[Manwell Pablo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24135219

 

 

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with labeling myself a heavy drinker.

 

What I have never understood is (assuming you're not a alcoholic) getting that pissed that you don't actually know what you are doing or how to take care of yourself, what's the point? Where's the enjoyment in it? Surely the idea should be to get to a certain enjoyable level.

 

Personally I'd be behind the above idea certainly better than minimum cost of alcohol units, as it actually targets the people causing trouble on the streets and leaves the rest of us to destroy our livers quietly. 

[Strokes]

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with labeling myself a heavy drinker.

What I have never understood is (assuming you're not a alcoholic) getting that pissed that you don't actually know what you are doing or how to take care of yourself, what's the point? Where's the enjoyment in it? Surely the idea should be to get to a certain enjoyable level.

Personally I'd be behind the above idea certainly better than minimum cost of alcohol units, as it actually targets the people causing trouble on the streets and leaves the rest of us to destroy our livers quietly.

Yeah its easy to get carried when you don't drink as much as you used too, I got so ****ing smashed last time I went out. I'll be more cautious on the pop next time for sure.

[Alf Bentley]

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with labeling myself a heavy drinker.

 

What I have never understood is (assuming you're not a alcoholic) getting that pissed that you don't actually know what you are doing or how to take care of yourself, what's the point? Where's the enjoyment in it? Surely the idea should be to get to a certain enjoyable level.

 

Personally I'd be behind the above idea certainly better than minimum cost of alcohol units, as it actually targets the people causing trouble on the streets and leaves the rest of us to destroy our livers quietly. 

 

In my late teens and 20s, I was that sort of drinker - who got so pissed that I didn't know what I was doing, and ended up in the cells on half a dozen occasions. I never once intended to get into that state. I intended to get a bit pissed, while still in control and having a good time. From my perspective (and others may differ), the closest that I can get to explaining it is that, for some people, once they drink beyond a certain amount their brain chemistry changes and they don't take rational decisions (e.g. "I'm pleasantly pissed and happy so I'll stop drinking or slow right down now"). Also, when I was quite pissed and felt that I was sobering up, I sometimes felt a bit scared of sobering up - so drank more until I fell asleep or got out of control.

 

Other people may have other reasons (e.g. peer pressure), but it was definitely "unlucky brain chemistry" for me (though to what extent chemistry mixes with psychology, I'm not quite sure - they're both in there, for me).

 

The word "alcoholic" is a difficult one. Some people use it to refer to "alcohol dependency" (having to drink most of the day, every day or you get ill, get the shakes etc.). I've certainly never had that. I've always found it easy enough to stop drinking for days, weeks, even months, if I was motivated to do so for some reason. But other people would describe my sort of former problem drinking as "alcoholism" (out of control binge drinking).

 

I'm fortunate in that, as I've got older, I'm not physically able to consume as much booze as quickly as I used to be able to without it being unpleasant - so I have no inclination to do anything worse than occasionally have a bit too much (maybe 7 pints instead of 3-4) and end up falling asleep on the sofa.

 

I have no major problem with the idea of people like my former self being referred to special health centres when out-of-control pissed, and being made to pay for it. It might (or might not) have helped me moderate my boozing a bit earlier. People with a chronic problem do need proper treatment, though - drying out etc.

 

The lack of stigma about being pissed is a big factor, I think. I mean, if my 25-year-old self had been staggering around out of control on illegal narcotics, it would have been seen (by others and by me) as a lot more serious...because booze is in the culture, everyone takes abuse much less seriously, despite the fact that it causes massively more harm than heroin, crack, cocaine and pills put together....and I say that as someone who still enjoys having a few pints and getting a bit (I stress, a bit) pissed...

[Captain...]

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with labeling myself a heavy drinker.

 

What I have never understood is (assuming you're not a alcoholic) getting that pissed that you don't actually know what you are doing or how to take care of yourself, what's the point? Where's the enjoyment in it? Surely the idea should be to get to a certain enjoyable level.

 

Personally I'd be behind the above idea certainly better than minimum cost of alcohol units, as it actually targets the people causing trouble on the streets and leaves the rest of us to destroy our livers quietly. 

 

Just seen Sir Alf's reply, similar for me, I never got crazy or out of control, but it was just the association of drinking with having a good time, so if your drinking you're having a good time, typically in my student days we would sit around drinking until all the beer was gone, or we had all crashed out. I can normally handle my drink, but I don't always know when I've had enough and sometimes go over the top, but it rarely results in anything more than unintelligible text messages and some memory loss.

[Manwell Pablo]

In my late teens and 20s, I was that sort of drinker - who got so pissed that I didn't know what I was doing, and ended up in the cells on half a dozen occasions. I never once intended to get into that state. I intended to get a bit pissed, while still in control and having a good time. From my perspective (and others may differ), the closest that I can get to explaining it is that, for some people, once they drink beyond a certain amount their brain chemistry changes and they don't take rational decisions (e.g. "I'm pleasantly pissed and happy so I'll stop drinking or slow right down now"). Also, when I was quite pissed and felt that I was sobering up, I sometimes felt a bit scared of sobering up - so drank more until I fell asleep or got out of control.

 

Other people may have other reasons (e.g. peer pressure), but it was definitely "unlucky brain chemistry" for me (though to what extent chemistry mixes with psychology, I'm not quite sure - they're both in there, for me).

 

The word "alcoholic" is a difficult one. Some people use it to refer to "alcohol dependency" (having to drink most of the day, every day or you get ill, get the shakes etc.). I've certainly never had that. I've always found it easy enough to stop drinking for days, weeks, even months, if I was motivated to do so for some reason. But other people would describe my sort of former problem drinking as "alcoholism" (out of control binge drinking).

 

I'm fortunate in that, as I've got older, I'm not physically able to consume as much booze as quickly as I used to be able to without it being unpleasant - so I have no inclination to do anything worse than occasionally have a bit too much (maybe 7 pints instead of 3-4) and end up falling asleep on the sofa.

 

I have no major problem with the idea of people like my former self being referred to special health centres when out-of-control pissed, and being made to pay for it. It might (or might not) have helped me moderate my boozing a bit earlier. People with a chronic problem do need proper treatment, though - drying out etc.

 

The lack of stigma about being pissed is a big factor, I think. I mean, if my 25-year-old self had been staggering around out of control on illegal narcotics, it would have been seen (by others and by me) as a lot more serious...because booze is in the culture, everyone takes abuse much less seriously, despite the fact that it causes massively more harm than heroin, crack, cocaine and pills put together....and I say that as someone who still enjoys having a few pints and getting a bit (I stress, a bit) pissed...

 

 

Interesting insights, I still don't see how or why people do it, I don't know how much it took for you to get like that but if I were to seriously aim to lose control of my senses I think I'd have to drink at least a litre of vodka and it would have to be gone inside 5 or 6 hours I'd imagine and I'd have to somehow hold it all down. It's just something I'd never dream of doing as I know what the consequences would be. 

 

I dunno where you've got your information on Crack, Cocain, and Heroin but there all more harmful than alcohol even in large doses, there about the only things that are though.

 

Just seen Sir Alf's reply, similar for me, I never got crazy or out of control, but it was just the association of drinking with having a good time, so if your drinking you're having a good time, typically in my student days we would sit around drinking until all the beer was gone, or we had all crashed out. I can normally handle my drink, but I don't always know when I've had enough and sometimes go over the top, but it rarely results in anything more than unintelligible text messages and some memory loss.

 

 

 

To clarify I am talking so pissed your actually unable to look after yourself and have to be locked up. 

[MooseBreath]

Get all the plastered people together in a room, maybe some music, flashing lights, could be fun

[Captain...]

 

To clarify I am talking so pissed your actually unable to look after yourself and have to be locked up. 

 

I think part of that is in your nature, everyone reacts differently to being smashed. I've been told about things I've done which are very out of character for me and whenever I've passed out there's always been one friend there sober enough to get me home, but I never got violent or aggressive. I think it has to be in your nature to be aggressive and cause trouble alcohol just inhibits your self control, I understand how people can get in that state, but if I knew that I was that type of person I would like to think I would take a lot more care in how much I drank.

[Alf Bentley]

Interesting insights, I still don't see how or why people do it, I don't know how much it took for you to get like that but if I were to seriously aim to lose control of my senses I think I'd have to drink at least a litre of vodka and it would have to be gone inside 5 or 6 hours I'd imagine and I'd have to somehow hold it all down. It's just something I'd never dream of doing as I know what the consequences would be. 

 

I dunno where you've got your information on Crack, Cocain, and Heroin but there all more harmful than alcohol even in large doses, there about the only things that are though.

 

To clarify I am talking so pissed your actually unable to look after yourself and have to be locked up. 

 

You're lucky if you've never had to work out why people do it. It took me years to achieve the partial insight that I've acquired, and I wouldn't claim to fully understand even now - except that it's a mixture of brain chemistry (with alcohol) and psychological make-up. As for volumes, when I got in out-of-control states (which only happened sometimes, not always), I typically had 8-13 pints of medium-strength beer (or equivalent) in about 6-8 hours. I had/have a medium-weak head for booze, but a strong stomach so would keep it down. I never "dreamed of" getting in those states, it upset me. It's just that beyond a certain point (about 5-6 pints), I no longer made rational decisions (sometimes). I can relate to Moose's account of often having a great time, being the life and soul of the party to a large extent - but other times, I'd turn very nasty verbally (not physically) or end up in the cells (6 times in total). Maybe I should have had the strength to stop completely, but that's easier said than done when you're 20-odd, having fun in a boozy culture and don't really understand what's going on with your occasionally out-of-control behaviour.

 

Another weird feature is that I'd sometimes have black-outs (not remember whole chunks of time), yet behave quite acceptably or successfully make complicated trips across London in that state....other times I'd be out of control. Strange phenomenon.

 

To clarify re. illegal drugs: I'm not suggesting that alcohol is more harmful than heroin to an individual, but it does a lot more harm to society: thousands of deaths annually, thousands in A&E every week, implicated in countless murders/rapes/GBHs/child abuse/wife-beating/divorce etc....you cannot say that about any illegal drug, however harmful it may be to individuals (and to property crime rates with heroin etc.).....and, I repeat, I love necking a few pints. I'm largely able to do so with few ill-effects these days (need to average at least 45 mins per pint and go home and fall asleep if I have more than about 7!)

[Rincewind]

I've never drunk so much that I've not had some knowledge of what I was doing. What stopped me was looking at others and not wanting to look as foolish as them. I went out with a crowd and thought one of us should stay reasonably sober. Worse thing I can remember was someone grabbing a shopping trolley and transporting one of the girls down the street. I kept out the way saying you shouldn't be doing that.

We never got noticed or spoken to by the police. Pissed in a few doorways (minus tramps) Couldn't do it now. Mates who I went with are in their 70's. There is still a crowd meet Friday nights in the City centre but I think its no more than four pints. When I have things sorted with money and neighbour I may join them.

 

Re drugs wouldn't booze seem more harmful and do more damage because it is legal and freely available?

II have a quiet placid nature and never become aggressive when i had a few. I was more talkative but deep down I was still shy in certain situations. Although over the last couple of years I have become more sef confident which has made me more talkative even when sober.

Not looked at the link yet.

[howlinmadmurfdoc]

So a private profit making company could decide if I was being drunk and disorderly, lock me up for the night and then charge me for the privelige,

Who decides what too drunk is?

Who gives them the power to manhandle people?

Can you appeal against it?

Something just doesn't sit right with me about this.

[Zingari]

So a private profit making company could decide if I was being drunk and disorderly, lock me up for the night and then charge me for the privelige,

Who decides what too drunk is?

Who gives them the power to manhandle people?

Can you appeal against it?

Something just doesn't sit right with me about this.

Totally agree 

It seems ripe for unscrupulous abuse.

[ithuriel]

So a private profit making company could decide if I was being drunk and disorderly, lock me up for the night and then charge me for the privelige,

Who decides what too drunk is?

Who gives them the power to manhandle people?

Can you appeal against it?

Something just doesn't sit right with me about this.

I think it would be the police deciding and then dropping you off at one of these private facilities rather than taking you to a cell.

They would have to be carefully vetted though, can already see rape accusations coming a mile off.

[Rincewind]

Similar to clamping companies?

 

Think I'll set one up. I'll operate from a taxi rank. Offer a cut rate taxi ride then drop them off at the cells. They cant leave in the morning till they have paid.

[Alf Bentley]

So a private profit making company could decide if I was being drunk and disorderly, lock me up for the night and then charge me for the privelige,

Who decides what too drunk is?

Who gives them the power to manhandle people?

Can you appeal against it?

Something just doesn't sit right with me about this.

 

My understanding is that it would still be the police or other emergency services who decided where an excessively drunk person was taken. Presumably, if they were seriously injured they would still get taken to A&E and if they had committed an offence, they'd be taken to the police cells. Otherwise, if they were just staggering around out of control or lying in the street, the police could refer them to the "drunk tank", which could bill them in the morning.

 

As for it being a private profit-making company, that's just the sort of political assumption that is made these days; I suppose there's no reason why it couldn't be a publicly-run facility that was self-funding through the charges levied on the pissheads.

 

I'd certainly have more problem with the concept if: (a) there weren't people with some medical training at the drunk tank to pick up on people whose health might be in immediate danger; (b) it was a private company that was deciding who should be detained; or © some effort wasn't made to refer people suffering from chronic alcoholism for medical treatment

[Zingari]

I think it would be the police deciding and then dropping you off at one of these private facilities rather than taking you to a cell.

They would have to be carefully vetted though, can already see rape accusations coming a mile off.

I don't see why the police can't leave people alone however drunk the may be  if they ain't breaking any laws , and if they are breaking laws they should be properly arrested for that reason alone .

The whole thing stinks 

[Alf Bentley]

I don't see why the police can't leave people alone however drunk the may be  if they ain't breaking any laws , and if they are breaking laws they should be properly arrested for that reason alone .

The whole thing stinks 

 

In practice, people drunk within the bounds of reason could be left alone, as they are today: e.g. someone just weaving down the pavement, looking glassy-eyed, slurring and talking shite.

 

Would it be right, though, to leave the following people alone, just because they hadn't committed an offence: a bloke staggering in front of traffic; a woman in skimpy clothing, sitting drunk in a rough area weeping and saying she didn't know where she was; a person crashed out drunk on a bench in a T-shirt on a freezing night in January?

[Rincewind]

Saw a programme the other night think it was one of those motorway cops things. When the patrol went out a psychiatric  doctor went along to access if the person causing trouble had mental issues. A lot of those arrested have mental health problems and the police dont know how to handle them. Same with drunks.

[Zingari]

In practice, people drunk within the bounds of reason could be left alone, as they are today: e.g. someone just weaving down the pavement, looking glassy-eyed, slurring and talking shite.

 

Would it be right, though, to leave the following people alone, just because they hadn't committed an offence: a bloke staggering in front of traffic; a woman in skimpy clothing, sitting drunk in a rough area weeping and saying she didn't know where she was; a person crashed out drunk on a bench in a T-shirt on a freezing night in January?

Yes , we should stop being so fookin nannyish .That's what the tories keep claiming to be .

 

In the types of cases you mentioned maybe they should be given some medical aid or taken home for their own safety , why take them to another institution ?

Should we stop people skydiving , mountain climbing or arrest all the nutters pulling crazy stunts on youtube because it could harm them ?

[Webbo]

Yes , we should stop being so fookin nannyish .That's what the tories keep claiming to be .

 

In the types of cases you mentioned maybe they should be given some medical aid or taken home for their own safety , why take them to another institution ?

Should we stop people skydiving , mountain climbing or arrest all the nutters pulling crazy stunts on youtube because it could harm them ?

The idea is to stop violent crime so I guess it wouldn't just be someone throwing up in the streets.A private company shouldn't be able to hold you against your will though.

[Zingari]

The idea is to stop violent crime so I guess it wouldn't just be someone throwing up in the streets.A private company shouldn't be able to hold you against your will though.

I've no problem with the police arresting folk drunk or otherwise if they have committed offences.  What i'm agin is some sort of random discretionary or arbitary decision being made about drunkenness and being forced to spend time in a paid for cell. 

[Rincewind]

How often does it really happen? once twice a week in big cities. It would still happen anyway. What about doing something before the cure?

[Webbo]

I've no problem with the police arresting folk drunk or otherwise if they have committed offences.  What i'm agin is some sort of random discretionary or arbitary decision being made about drunkenness and being forced to spend time in a paid for cell. 

If two lads were squaring up for flight and you could stop it before anything happened though?I know what you mean though,I'm not that keen on the idea myself.

[Alf Bentley]

Yes , we should stop being so fookin nannyish .That's what the tories keep claiming to be .

 

In the types of cases you mentioned maybe they should be given some medical aid or taken home for their own safety , why take them to another institution ?

Should we stop people skydiving , mountain climbing or arrest all the nutters pulling crazy stunts on youtube because it could harm them ?

 

I'd answer "No" to your last question: mature, sane, sober adults should be allowed to take risks if they want to.

 

As for the 3 examples of drunk people I quoted, none of them would necessarily need any medical aid, just a safe place to sleep it off and sober up. Also, what if they lived alone or a long way away or weren't sober enough to remember/say where they lived? Would it be nannyish to stop the bloke potentially causing a fatal traffic accident, the woman getting raped and the third person freezing to death?

[Zingari]

If two lads were squaring up for flight and you could stop it before anything happened though?I know what you mean though,I'm not that keen on the idea myself.

That would be threatening behaviour and the police have a right to arrest them for it and lock them up if necessary. , I don't see the need to take them off to an enforced stay at travelodge .