Come 2015, who will you vote for?

[Alf Bentley]

UKIP I'D imagine. Safe Tory seat anyway here so it doesn't matter.

Leicestershire is easy to predict isn't it? Red in the middle, blue everywhere else.

 

Pretty much true. Just had a look at the 2010 results, as I remembered that Loughborough, Leics NW & Charnwood went Labour under Blair/Brown...looking at the majorities, I should think that Loughborough is the only one that might switch....and even then, only if Labour are on course for a majority (not impossible, depending on events/economy/campaign, but unlikely, I'd have thought): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/1.stm

 

Shame that votes "don't matter" in 90% of seats under the first past the post voting system

[DennisNedry]

Pretty much true. Just had a look at the 2010 results, as I remembered that Loughborough, Leics NW & Charnwood went Labour under Blair/Brown...looking at the majorities, I should think that Loughborough is the only one that might switch....and even then, only if Labour are on course for a majority (not impossible, depending on events/economy/campaign, but unlikely, I'd have thought): http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/1.stm

 

Shame that votes "don't matter" in 90% of seats under the first past the post voting system

 

Alf, from that map, is it fair to say that the Conservatives are the voice of England? Labour only seem to win seats in Scotland and in Northern cities.

[Guest MattP]

Alf, from that map, is it fair to say that the Conservatives are the voice of England? Labour only seem to win seats in Scotland and in Northern cities.

Always have been. Apart from 97 England has generally been a swarm of blue.

White English overwhelmingly vote Tory. I probably only know 10-15 Labour voters and most of them are second generation immigrants who don't generally identify being English anyway. Either the Irish side of my family or a couple od Welsh and Asian mates.

[Captain...]

Voting for an mep is like voting in the council elections and expecting them to be accountable for national polocies. There is no accountability and the eu has power to apply laws to this country that our elected government must enforce, we are no longer a country but a state of europe in all but name. The electorate was never given a choice regarding current membership of the eu, and it should be.

 

No it isn't, it is like voting in the national elections and expecting them to be accountable for national policies.

 

All EU legislation and policies get voted on by the EU parliament, without the approval of the EU parliament nothing can be done in the EU. There is also a council made up of democratically elected MPs of member states that votes on legislation, and an EU Commission.

 

You have been misinformed about the EU it is not a dictatorship, we are not being controlled by Brussels, just because we have had to do things we don't like, and have joke UKIP MEPs who don't exercise their democratic right, doesn't make it undemocratic.

[MooseBreath]

Always interesting when the strongest pro-EU voice is coming from a person who spends a lot of time living and working in Spain - an obvious vested interest.

[Guest MattP]

How can anyone continue to defend an organisation that has stolen money from peoples bank accounts.

They are no better than common criminals and should be treated as such.

It's an outdated failed project connected to a failed currency that has become a gravy train for a lot of people.

It's political decisions have brought nations to its knees, ruines millions of people lives and it's about time the whole thing was shut down before we end up with a rich German nation while the rest of Europe becomes enslaved to them.

[Alf Bentley]

Would be fascinating if the greens got in and went through with the citizens income idea, where they give every citizen a certain amount of money funded by taking more from the rich. How long would it take before nobody could be bothered to go to work anymore and the whole country just imploded, I wonder.

 

You must see everyone as naturally very lazy and lacking in pride! Of course, a minority are, and would take the piss - but that's true already. The Greens' proposed "Citizen's Income" would replace all benefits, tax credits and tax-free thresholds. Under the current system, it's not that hard to opt for life on the dole, provided that you jump through the right hoops (e.g. show you've applied for jobs, but make sure you don't get one) - yet most people (30m?) choose to work, and most of the unemployed (2.5m) genuinely want to work.

 

The Green manifesto (http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/) calls for an income tax rate of more than 40% on "the highest incomes", but by definition most people are not on "the highest incomes". They also want to include capital gains in income tax and to levy a wealth tax where appropriate - as a means of developing a more sustainable, less materialistic society based on local communities and quality of life, instead of profits, stress, materialistic accumulation and resource depletion. Sounds a good idea to me, though hard to implement viably - and politically impossible in the short-term, as most people are wedded to the model of materialistic consumption. Unfortunately, I suspect that something very bad will have to happen before Green ideas will catch on (natural disasters, social breakdown, permanently low living standards etc.) - even then, I'd have thought that violent anarchy and/or some sort of fascism is more likely....and I had the gall to accuse you of having a negative view of humanity! 

 

Re. people not wanting to work: my nephew has just had his dole stopped (i.e. no money for rent, food etc.). He was working but got laid off, through no fault of his own. He was looking for a new job and had 3 interviews within a week, 2 leading to second interviews, but didn't take the right documentary proof to his Jobcentre interview (stupid, especially as family had warned him about their tricks, but he's young). Instead of, say, telling him to provide proof within a few days, his benefits were stopped immediately and he was told that an appeal was his only option. As of yesterday, he still hadn't received the letter notifying him that his benefits had been stopped (though they have been) and this prevents him even lodging an appeal and presenting evidence of his efforts to find a job....so he's reliant on scrounging money from family (an option not open to all) until he's bureaucratically permitted to appeal. That's the true face of Toryism: millionnaires helping out their mates while deploying the bureaucratic machine to viciously kick vulnerable young people in the bollocks!

[MooseBreath]

Come on then moosey enlighten me to the full extent of the consequences of leaving the EU, as i said im undecided so you could legitimatly sway me should your argument be as good and solid as it should be. I agree with alot of what you have said in other threads that have turned political, so im genuinely all ears.

Like I said I don't really know either. No argument on either side has ever sounded particularly convincing to me. Probably should do a bit more reading up on it I suppose

[Captain...]

Alf, from that map, is it fair to say that the Conservatives are the voice of England? Labour only seem to win seats in Scotland and in Northern cities.

 

Well they are the biggest voice hence them winning the election, but they only polled 39.6% of the English votes, so it is not as conclusive as it looks when you see the constituencies coloured in. The larger by area seats are typically rural and Conservative, whereas the smaller more densely populated seats are labour, so only represented by a red dot on the map, but represent the voice of many more. If you switch to proportional view (only on the UK map not the England map) it looks a lot less blue.

[Strokes]

No it isn't, it is like voting in the national elections and expecting them to be accountable for national policies.

All EU legislation and policies get voted on by the EU parliament, without the approval of the EU parliament nothing can be done in the EU. There is also a council made up of democratically elected MPs of member states that votes on legislation, and an EU Commission.

You have been misinformed about the EU it is not a dictatorship, we are not being controlled by Brussels, just because we have had to do things we don't like, and have joke UKIP MEPs who don't exercise their democratic right, doesn't make it undemocratic.

he European Commission (EC) is the executive body of the European Union responsible for proposing legislation, implementing decisions, upholding the Union's treaties and day-to-day running of the EU. [2]

The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners" [3] ). There is one member per member state, though members are bound to represent the interests of the EU as a whole rather than their home state. One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently José Manuel Durão Barroso) proposed by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament. The Council then appoints the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and then the 28 members as a single body are subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament. [4] The first Barroso Commission took office in late 2004 and its successor, under the same President, took office in 2010. [5]

The term "Commission" is used either in the narrow sense of the 28-member College of Commissioners (or College) or to also include the administrative body of about 23,000 European civil servants who are split into departments called Directorates-General and Services. [6] The usual procedural languages of the Commission are English, French and German. [7] The Members of the Commission and their "cabinets" (immediate teams) are based in.

Not one elected mep in their, the important issues are decided here. All appointed from within, no choice from any electorate as to who these representives can be.

Not what I call democratic, you can say the same about the house of lords if you wish and all you will get from me is agreement.

[Captain...]

How can anyone continue to defend an organisation that has stolen money from peoples bank accounts.

They are no better than common criminals and should be treated as such.

It's an outdated failed project connected to a failed currency that has become a gravy train for a lot of people.

It's political decisions have brought nations to its knees, ruines millions of people lives and it's about time the whole thing was shut down before we end up with a rich German nation while the rest of Europe becomes enslaved to them.

 

I'm not defending it at the moment, I'm just pointing out saying it is undemocratic is bollocks.

 

As is saying they are no better than common criminals (especially from a conservative supporter when they have done exactly the same thing to get out of the crisis, except they targetted the poor whereas the EU targetted the rich with savings) it's what all governments do Matt, they need money so they take it from the electorate, the EU did it in an unsubtle way with Greece, and I don't agree with it, but I don't agree with many things governments do, that doesn't mean they are all criminals. They were also not responsible for the economic crisis in Europe, and didn't bring nations to their knees, but they did adopt a strict austerity package that did stifle growth (sound familiar).

 

If you don't like the EU, that's fine, it is flawed and needs reform, but I firmly believe we are better off in it trying to change it from the inside rather than becoming an insular isolated island nation. The EU is one of the most powerful organisations on the planet we would be foolish to give up our privileged position in it.

 

Now stop with the jingoistic xenophobic rhetoric.

[Alf Bentley]

Alf, from that map, is it fair to say that the Conservatives are the voice of England? Labour only seem to win seats in Scotland and in Northern cities.

 

What it shows is that the Tories won the most votes in England in 2010 (and may well do again in 2015). Would you like to see the UK break up then? The North/South bit is overstated, though. Look at London: 38 Lab, 28 Tory in 2010 (a bad election for Lab). The divide is more urban/industrial/poor (Lab) v. rural/commuter/better-off (Con) with the suburbs and medium-sized towns swinging between the two. That's a simplification, of course.

 

Plus, there are a lot of Labour voters in Tory seats - and Tory voters in Labour seats, but our electoral system conceals that.

 

Always have been. Apart from 97 England has generally been a swarm of blue.

White English overwhelmingly vote Tory. I probably only know 10-15 Labour voters and most of them are second generation immigrants who don't generally identify being English anyway. Either the Irish side of my family or a couple od Welsh and Asian mates.

 

Trueish in recent years, though "overwhelmingly" is overstating it - and the 2001 result was almost identical to 1997. Not so true if you look back a few decades - I believe that the Tories won a majority of seats in Scotland as little as 50-60 years ago, and regularly won seats in major Northern cities until the 1990s....while Labour used to win more seats in small/medium-sized towns of the South.

 

Economic and political polarisation like this is not healthy...but I'd expect it to continue at the next election. I wouldn't like to predict the outcome yet (will mainly depend on the economy and living standards, and who gets the respective credit/blame, barring unexpected major events, I'd say). I'd expect it to be close, but with the Tories doing disproportionately well in the South outside London, and Labour disproportionately well in the cities....England is becoming a very divided country, never mind Britain.

 

Re. Ireland: Their politics are more conservative than in England! The 2 main parties (Fine Gael & Fianna Fail) are basically parties of the centre-right, while the Irish Labour Party is much weaker than its British sister party. 

[Strokes]

Like I said I don't really know either. No argument on either side has ever sounded particularly convincing to me. Probably should do a bit more reading up on it I suppose

Sorry I'm on my phone right now so I'm crap at links, but there is some good reading here.

http://www.democracymovement.org.uk/main/home.html

[Captain...]

he European Commission (EC) is the executive body of the European Union responsible for proposing legislation, implementing decisions, upholding the Union's treaties and day-to-day running of the EU. [2]

The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners" [3] ). There is one member per member state, though members are bound to represent the interests of the EU as a whole rather than their home state. One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently José Manuel Durão Barroso) proposed by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament. The Council then appoints the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and then the 28 members as a single body are subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament. [4] The first Barroso Commission took office in late 2004 and its successor, under the same President, took office in 2010. [5]

The term "Commission" is used either in the narrow sense of the 28-member College of Commissioners (or College) or to also include the administrative body of about 23,000 European civil servants who are split into departments called Directorates-General and Services. [6] The usual procedural languages of the Commission are English, French and German. [7] The Members of the Commission and their "cabinets" (immediate teams) are based in.

Not one elected mep in their, the important issues are decided here. All appointed from within, no choice from any electorate as to who these representives can be.

Not what I call democratic, you can say the same about the house of lords if you wish and all you will get from me is agreement.

 

Just highlighted a few words in there, it is not a dictatorship and they have no power to enforce any changes, all changes need to be voted on by the Council and Parliament, they work with the European Council, the Council and the Parliament and many other experts to form policy.

[Kyle_Le_Don]

Is there any real proof that our votes actually count?

[Strokes]

Just highlighted a few words in there, it is not a dictatorship and they have no power to enforce any changes, all changes need to be voted on by the Council and Parliament, they work with the European Council, the Council and the Parliament and many other experts to form policy.

I really don't have the time or desire to try and prove to someone that sits at the opposite end of the political spectrum that their vote in European elections is worthless.

Just tell me where your vote in this European council came from, maybe you should check if he/she turned up that day, I bet you £50 he/she didn't.

[lavrentis]

UKIP. For those that don't see anything in UKIP, I think Farage would be a powerful figure in parliament if UKIP did well. Need a real leader in there to ruffle some feathers. He won't be ignored like the Green's were tbh

[Captain...]

I really don't have the time or desire to try and prove to someone that sits at the opposite end of the political spectrum that their vote in European elections is worthless.

Just tell me where your vote in this European council came from, maybe you should check if he/she turned up that day, I bet you £50 he/she didn't.

 

I'm not disagreeing that it is worthless as turn out rate for the European parliament is very low, but that doesn't make it undemocratic, turn out in local elections is low, doesn't mean it's undemocratic. It's just this whole notion that by being in the EU we are being controlled by dictators in Brussels, that I disagree with, if our MEPs don't exercise their democratic right in the European Parliament then that is their fault/our fault for electing them, not the fault of the EU who give this power to them to make it a fair and democratic process. It's just tired rhetoric that people hold on to to argue against the EU when in reality they don't know that much about it.

[hackneyfox]

Most economists and business leaders tend to be pro EU, very pro EU.

[Strokes]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/16782-anti-eu-alliance-takes-shape-warns-of-soviet-style-collapse

[BMR]

Possibly Green, possibly Labour as you could fit all the Green voters in Essex in a phone box. Not that it matters as I live in a very safe Tory seat.

you wouldnt vote green if you lived in Brighton, clueless is what they are here!

[broughtonblue]

When is the Scottish vote on independence? And if they do go it alone will they be voting in the next general election after?

Could completely change the face of politics if they can't!

[Strokes]

When is the Scottish vote on independence? And if they do go it alone will they be voting in the next general election after?

Could completely change the face of politics if they can't!

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13326310

Althought the vote would be before the general, it seems they would not be independant until after. Im not sure if this would affect the rights to vote in the uk elections.

[MPH]

Voting for UKIP for me would feel like giving full control of a nuclear power plant to a group of university graduates without a a single days work experience...

They might be nice people, they might even sound intelligent every now and then.. but that doesn't mean any of them would have a bloody clue as what to do once put in charge..

[BlooArmeh!]

What are these 'Other' parties people are saying they would vote for? Green party, I suppose?