Thomas Hitzelsperger

[Kitchandro]

No it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. But considering someone like Justin Fashnu then gay athletes are probably not all that keen on it. Are you really being as obtuse to suggest that just because you don't care then he would suffer no change to his personal life? That if he was pictured holding hands with his boyfriend then nobody would bat an eye? That he honestly wasn't worried that if he was caught with another bloke then thousands of people would rip him every week for the next 5/10/15 years of his career?

 

Come on. Ignorance like this really, really pisses me off.

 

Players are abused by crowds for all sorts of things, the only way they can deal with it is to shrug it off. What else are they going to do? Do you think coming out of the closet (especially now, after he's retired) is going to change people's reaction to it?

 

If he thinks everyone in the world is just all of a sudden going to accept it because a few gays come out the closet then you're wrong.

[Guest MattP]

It's all well and good saying that but if a current Premier League footballer was photographed coming out of a gay club we all know it would be all over the tabloids and he would be hounded by the press and fans alike. Until footballers (and celebrities in general) can live their life without the fear of that happening they're going to have to continue to come out in public.

 

Hetrosexual footballbers can't come out of a nighclub without being pictured and plastered.

 

The public really couldn't give a shit about it lets be honest, if a gay footballer came out over here he wouldnt get any stick from fans on mass in this day and age.

 

That said some gays need to take some responsibility for these attitudes as well, if people like Brian Dowling, Graham Norton, Alan Carr etc didn't make homosexuality a front, camp, girly thing that they almost seem to want to be seen so different to the rest of society regular people might have a bit more respect, if you keep pushing things in peoples faces they get pissed off with it and the majority have to suffer for the actions of a minority.

 

Considering Ronnie Kray was open about it, I don't think anybody else should have any worries about coming out.

 

Don't get why it's always a story. There a millions of people around the World that are gay, just because a professional comes out the media seem to rave over it. No wonder people still take the p**s, just leave them alone.

 

Spot on.

[Guest MattP]

No it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. But considering someone like Justin Fashnu then gay athletes are probably not all that keen on it. Are you really being as obtuse to suggest that just because you don't care then he would suffer no change to his personal life? That if he was pictured holding hands with his boyfriend then nobody would bat an eye? That he honestly wasn't worried that if he was caught with another bloke then thousands of people would rip him every week for the next 5/10/15 years of his career?

 

Come on. Ignorance like this really, really pisses me off.

 

Justin Fashanu isn't a good example to use, people didn't hate him because he was gay they hated him because they all knew he was abusing children.

[Dan]

Hetrosexual footballbers can't come out of a nighclub without being pictured and plastered.

 

The public really couldn't give a shit about it lets be honest, if a gay footballer came out over here he wouldnt get any stick from fans on mass in this day and age.

 

That said some gays need to take some responsibility for these attitudes as well, if people like Brian Dowling, Graham Norton, Alan Carr etc didn't make homosexuality a front, camp, girly thing that they almost seem to want to be seen so different to the rest of society regular people might have a bit more respect, if you keep pushing things in peoples faces they get pissed off with it and the majority have to suffer for the actions of a minority.

 

 

Spot on.

 

Can't stress this enough. One of my best mates is gay and he says himself he's found it all the harder because of the homosexual image portrayed by the likes of Louis Spence, Gok Wan etc...

 

The whole thing is yet another media car crash.

[Haydos]

Players are abused by crowds for all sorts of things, the only way they can deal with it is to shrug it off. What else are they going to do? Do you think coming out of the closet (especially now, after he's retired) is going to change people's reaction to it?

 

If he thinks everyone in the world is just all of a sudden going to accept it because a few gays come out the closet then you're wrong.

 

I think he's showing support to other gay athletes by trying to make it acceptable and not something people feel the need to cover up.

 

You sound incredibly selfish thinking that this isn't an incredbily difficult issue for a lot of people. Should we just accept gay bullying in schools? I guess people committing suicide for something such as their sexual preference is no big deal. And we should probably start telling racially abused players that it happens to everyone and to get on with it.

 

Jesus.

[Guest MattP]

Can't stress this enough. One of my best mates is gay and he says himself he's found it all the harder because of the homosexual image portrayed by the likes of Louis Spence, Gok Wan etc...

 

The whole thing is yet another media car crash.

 

I spoke with a gay couple at my Uncle's wedding a few years back (both guys you would never have guessed were gay) and they said exactly the same thing. I'd never really thought about it until them.

[Haydos]

Justin Fashanu isn't a good example to use, people didn't hate him because he was gay they hated him because they all knew he was abusing children.

 

Eh?

 

Tbf, I agree about the ultra campness. They're just being themselves or whatever but the ridiculous lewdness and pandering to it is borderline ridiculous.

 

Bottom line is that it's not going to get better if someone comes out. There are still plenty of homophobes whether they be team mates, staff, fans, opposition players, whoever, they exist. It would be nice if we get to the point where it's tolerated as much as racism is. Why should it be an issue? I know gay people that have the piss taken out of them between the friends, the same as I know non-white people that get the same.

 

It won't be 'normal' until a player can be pictured with his (male) partner and the article not be making a big deal out of his sexuality.

[Alexikokopops]

Hetrosexual footballbers can't come out of a nighclub without being pictured and plastered.

 

The public really couldn't give a shit about it lets be honest, if a gay footballer came out over here he wouldnt get any stick from fans on mass in this day and age.

 

That said some gays need to take some responsibility for these attitudes as well, if people like Brian Dowling, Graham Norton, Alan Carr etc didn't make homosexuality a front, camp, girly thing that they almost seem to want to be seen so different to the rest of society regular people might have a bit more respect, if you keep pushing things in peoples faces they get pissed off with it and the majority have to suffer for the actions of a minority.

 

 

True with the first part, but I still think it would be a much bigger story if it had the "GAY FOOTBALLER" angle.

 

I think we're all agreed that we would like to live in a world where footballers didn't have to come out in public but the fact that very few have suggests that, for whatever reason, they don't feel comfortable. If Hitzlsperger coming out helps towards that (however minor) then who am I to argue?

 

As for the latter bit, I have a gay friend who massively agrees that image is far from ideal. Maybe footballers such as Hitzlsperger coming out will help show that being gay doesn't necessarily mean you're an overly flamboyant queen, an image which I imagine some people will have because (as you say) you do get a lot of that in the public eye  

 

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. As an aside, when I was at uni we used to call him Tommy "the Hammer" Hitzlsperger when unleashing piledrivers on Pro Evo. I'm not sure what people will think if I start calling him that now...

[purpleronnie]

Can't stress this enough. One of my best mates is gay and he says himself he's found it all the harder because of the homosexual image portrayed by the likes of Louis Spence, Gok Wan etc...

 

The whole thing is yet another media car crash.

well if people assume all gay people are like them then they're idiots.

[Les-TA-Jon]

Players are abused by crowds for all sorts of things, the only way they can deal with it is to shrug it off. What else are they going to do? Do you think coming out of the closet (especially now, after he's retired) is going to change people's reaction to it?

 

If he thinks everyone in the world is just all of a sudden going to accept it because a few gays come out the closet then you're wrong.

 

Yeah but people being abused for their sexuality - i.e a fundamental aspect of who they are as a person - would be wrong on so many levels, - it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere in society, in stadiums or in the terraces. What if a player is abused for another part of who they are, like their race? Should he just shrug it off Kitch?

 

For the emboldened:  He doesn't think that does he? He's been brave in coming out, to exposing himself to potential abuse and the media. But the fact he's waited until he's retired shows where were are with this issue. He doesn't think it'll make a global, comprehensive impact. That's absurd isn't it? But is that a reason for not coming out? 

 

That right there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how 'principles' work. Should a vegetarian stop eating meat? After all there's still millions of animals killed for food. No, he should support his principle. It's the thin edge of the wedge. 

[Kitchandro]

I think he's showing support to other gay athletes by trying to make it acceptable and not something people feel the need to cover up.

 

You sound incredibly selfish thinking that this isn't an incredbily difficult issue for a lot of people. Should we just accept gay bullying in schools? I guess people committing suicide for something such as their sexual preference is no big deal. And we should probably start telling racially abused players that it happens to everyone and to get on with it.

 

Jesus.

 

Selfish? Get off your high horse man.

 

This has got nothing to do with whether I care about it or not, it's about his reasoning for coming out. I don't think coming out will benefit him in the real world, or his sporting colleagues.

 

Why are you comparing it to bullying you absolute idiot, he's a grown man. Therefore there is nothing anyone can do to protect him from abuse. If he's truly comfortable with it he has to just get on with life.

 

The only people who can actually make it not a difficult issue is the gay people themselves. They have to get on with their lives.

 

Coming out to his family, friends and teammates is one thing. Coming out to the public, sorry but I don't see what major breakthrough that makes.

[Haydos]

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. As an aside, when I was at uni we used to call him Tommy "the Hammer" Hitzlsperger when unleashing piledrivers on Pro Evo. I'm not sure what people will think if I start calling him that now...

 

Isn't his nickname 'Der Hammer' or something like that?

[Dan]

I spoke with a gay couple at my Uncle's wedding a few years back (both guys you would never have guessed were gay) and they said exactly the same thing. I'd never really thought about it until them.

 

Me neither. I wouldn't have ever suspected this lad as being gay and I was genuinely stunned to hear he was but it's really opened my eyes up. They're completely mis-portrayed.

[Dan]

I think he's showing support to other gay athletes by trying to make it acceptable and not something people feel the need to cover up.

 

You sound incredibly selfish thinking that this isn't an incredbily difficult issue for a lot of people. Should we just accept gay bullying in schools? I guess people committing suicide for something such as their sexual preference is no big deal. And we should probably start telling racially abused players that it happens to everyone and to get on with it.

 

Jesus.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong here, but I do think a lot ought to stand up against it more and I'm not saying we should just sit back as a society and accept that they'll be picked on, but I mean that they should seriously stand up for themselves because they really won't be on their own.

 

It's a tough situation which the media have made tougher by making this their main bulletin. I think todays news and the way it's come about will have sent the situation a step in the wrong direction rather than the right one.

[Kitchandro]

Yeah but people being abused for their sexuality - i.e a fundamental aspect of who they are as a person - would be wrong on so many levels, - it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere in society, in stadiums or in the terraces. What if a player is abused for another part of who they are, like their race? Should he just shrug it off Kitch?

 

For the emboldened:  He doesn't think that does he? He's been brave in coming out, to exposing himself to potential abuse and the media. But the fact he's waited until he's retired shows where were are with this issue. He doesn't think it'll make a global, comprehensive impact. That's absurd isn't it? But is that a reason for not coming out? 

 

That right there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how 'principles' work. Should a vegetarian stop eating meat? After all there's still millions of animals killed for food. No, he should support his principle. It's the thin edge of the wedge. 

 

Yeh they should shrug it off. What else are they going to do? Change the minds of other people? Or he could just chin them I suppose. But then he might have to chin a lot of people.

 

A vegetarian should do what they bloody want. But involving me isn't going to help their cause, because I don't agree with them. I don't care how many people come out as a veggie, I'll still think it's stupid.

[Guest MattP]

Eh?

 

It won't be 'normal' until a player can be pictured with his (male) partner and the article not be making a big deal out of his sexuality.

 

Fash was well known to be at with the young uns, when he hung himself it was because he had charges hanging over him from abusing a young boy in the US, a lot of people have a misconception that he roped himself as he was queer.

 

They seem to be desperate for a gay now though, in fact the whole thing seems to have gone full circle, we want to see a gay footballer and they are encouraging it so much so they can get a picture of him with his boyfriend for a huge story which at the start was the thing we were supposidly trying to avoid.

 

As for the latter bit, I have a gay friend who massively agrees that image is far from ideal. Maybe footballers such as Hitzlsperger coming out will help show that being gay doesn't necessarily mean you're an overly flamboyant queen, an image which I imagine some people will have because (as you say) you do get a lot of that in the public eye

 

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. As an aside, when I was at uni we used to call him Tommy "the Hammer" Hitzlsperger when unleashing piledrivers on Pro Evo. I'm not sure what people will think if I start calling him that now...

 

 

Agree, though I couldnt care less personally if someone comes out or not.

 

well if people assume all gay people are like them then they're idiots.

 

If you watched the BBC that's what they would want you to think, the Nortons, Carrs etc are the heroes while the Conservative 'normal' gays like Starkey will still be ludicrously ridiculed as homophobes as he is a gay doesn't like people being camp.

[Harry - LCFC]

Meh

[Les-TA-Jon]

Yeh they should shrug it off. What else are they going to do? Change the minds of other people? Or he could just chin them I suppose. But then he might have to chin a lot of people.

 

A vegetarian should do what they bloody want. But involving me isn't going to help their cause, because I don't agree with them. I don't care how many people come out as a veggie, I'll still think it's stupid.

 

OK...folks you heard it here first folks. The appropriate response to racist abuse is to shrug it off. Same goes for any other abuse that targets someone on an aspect of them as a person, such as sexuality or gender. What if a government brought back in racial segregation in schools or hospitals? What if the services of the NHS were made unavailable to non-white people? Should they shrug it off?

 

For the emboldened: They're not involving you. They're coming out/subscribing to a principle. Eventually with enough weight/people behind a particular principle it becomes accepted and/or the norm, and that how society changes. It's not about me, or you, or individuals in general. 

[Guest MattP]

OK...folks you heard it here first folks. The appropriate response to racist abuse is to shrug it off. Same goes for any other abuse that targets someone on an aspect of them as a person, such as sexuality or gender. What if a government brought back in racial segregation in schools or hospitals? What if the services of the NHS were made unavailable to non-white people? Should they shrug it off?

 

For the emboldened: They're not involving you. They're coming out/subscribing to a principle. Eventually with enough weight/people behind a particular principle it becomes accepted and/or the norm, and that how society changes. It's not about me, or you, or individuals in general. 

 

What a ridiculous post.

 

You have actually equated not caring about someones sexuality and it having no effect on you as similar to bringing back racial segregation and not treating black people. What is wrong with you?

[AndWhat?]

If a footballer came out now he would get chants aimed at him.

[Les-TA-Jon]

What a ridiculous post.

 

You have actually equated not caring about someones sexuality and it having no effect on you as similar to bringing back racial segregation and not treating black people. What is wrong with you?

 

What a ridiculous post. 

 

There's nothing wrong with me. There might be something wrong with people's reading ability though.

 

Kitch has not merely stated that he "[does not care] about someones sexuality and it having no effect on [him]" He explicitly said in his posts that abuse that targets a player's sexuality (i.e an offence that is EXACTLY the same severity as abusing someone for their race or gender) should be shrugged off.

 

Players are abused by crowds for all sorts of things, the only way they can deal with it is to shrug it off. What else are they going to do?

 

 

Most rational people would say that the appropriate response for such things, is to shrug it off, is in fact, not appropriate. Therefore in order to highlight that fact, I admittedly, used a hyperbolic example, sure. But when did I equate racial segregation with not caring about someone's sexuality? Kitch was talking about not caring about someone's sexuality. Not me.

 

I didn't say "oh Kitch you ****, you don't care about someone's sexuality and you think it has no effect on you, well that's just as bad as racial segregation" 

 

I was saying should we just shrug off racial abuse? I was saying would we just shrug off racial segregation?  Of course we wouldn't; as a society we'd abhor it and stop it.

[Dan]

If a footballer came out now he would get chants aimed at him.

 

He would but I really do think it'd be a small minority.

 

I would have a lot of respect for a player who came out, whilst playing, got some stick and still got on with it. That is the way it'll become accepted in my opinion.

[Haydos]

Yeh they should shrug it off. What else are they going to do? Change the minds of other people? Or he could just chin them I suppose. But then he might have to chin a lot of people.

 

A vegetarian should do what they bloody want. But involving me isn't going to help their cause, because I don't agree with them. I don't care how many people come out as a veggie, I'll still think it's stupid.

 

I just think this is plain stupid. I'm pretty sure I haven't got the wrong end of the stick here. It appears you're saying this won't have any effect. I know it isn't exaclty the same and I keep mentioning racisim but it is a similar issue, only 50 years previous. If nobody tries to make any progress then no, obviously things aren't going to change.

 

 

It's the same argument as I'm using in the world cup thread about FA's boycotting FIFA. If nobody has the balls to do anything, to make change happening then of course this will remain the status quo. I'm not saying he's going to change anything but he is the highest profile footballer to come out yet. It is a step in the right direction and if a high profile player who is still playincg comes out in the next few years I have no doubt they will have taken inspiration from Hitzelsperger.

[Les-TA-Jon]

Also love this gem from Kitch:

 What else are they going to do? Change the minds of other people?...I don't care how many people come out as a veggie, I'll still think it's stupid.

 

Hopefully yeah!!!

 

So you've made the assumption that all people are closed minded. That people can't change the minds of other people. Reality begs to differ mate!

[Fox92]

Yeah but people being abused for their sexuality - i.e a fundamental aspect of who they are as a person - would be wrong on so many levels, - it shouldn't be tolerated anywhere in society, in stadiums or in the terraces. What if a player is abused for another part of who they are, like their race? Should he just shrug it off Kitch?

 

 

People get bullied because of their weight. People get abused because they are ginger. What about people calling a short person a 'midget'?

 

You're still singling a person out for being "different", so where do you draw the line?

 

 

I do think the time will come where we will have to sit in silence and people will be punished for laughing. Imagine Monty Python nowadays,  it would probably get banned.