Route 1 football - England's future?

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

Yeah our record at the European Championship should be better.

 

We have a good record at the World Cup though.

[Manwell Pablo]

Yeah our record at the European Championship should be better.

 

We have a good record at the World Cup though.

 

What two Semi's and one win when hosting nearly 50 years ago?

 

If you say so. 

[Uncle Albert]

Yeah our record at the European Championship should be better.

 

We have a good record at the World Cup though.

 

I really don't know where you get this shite from. 

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

What two Semi's and one win when hosting nearly 50 years ago?

 

If you say so. 

 

Yes, the same as Spain.

 

It's not exactly a bad record is it?

 

EDIT: Only Brazil, Italy, Germany, Argentina and Mexico have appeared in more World Cups than we have (it would only be Brazil, Italy and Germany if we had entered the first 3 World cups)

 

Only Germany, Brazil, Italy and Argentina have played more World Cup games than we have

[Manwell Pablo]

Yes, the same as Spain.

 

It's not a exactly a bad record is it.

 

 

Well yeah, on the whole, it's pretty bad, sort of masked by the fact that they're the best team in the world now, they were shite (like we are now) for decades before, they have an appalling history for such a big footballing nation. 

 

And even if it's not bad I would certainly not go as far as saying it is good. You might be right in stating that we are better than 90% of the world and I don't know what point you are trying to make with that though, I don't think the fact that we have a better football team and football structure than the likes of The Cook Islands Pakistan and San Marino is relevant to what is being discussed here. You argue pointless facts to try and make us sounds like we are still genuinely big players in international football when in reality we are behind, drastically behind 14-18 nations across South America and Europe and a World Cup Quarter final seems like a dream to most people at the moment. Not a situation we should be in. 

[Dan]

How does that look stupid?

 

All people seem to do instead of naming ways of improving our own nation, yes I know some have had some fantastic suggestions in this thread, but a lot of people including yourself Dan, would rather keep slating the system and keep telling us how superior the German way is compared to our own. 

 

Because you were only the second person to mention something German and the first to mention the Bundesliga.

 

My suggestions haven't been 'do everything Germany and Spain do'. They are both a mile ahead of us at youth development, but what good is copying everything they do? If we try and copy Spain (and I think in some ways, we have done) then we'll just end up playing a watered down version of their game because we're nowhere near as equipped as they are to play it.

 

This post is absolutely spot on. Word for word, spot on;

 

Well, yes but it's not that simple.

 

90% of countries don't have one of the richest and most viewed football leagues in the world, they don't have multi billionaires backing their clubs, they don't have over 150 years of footballing history to call upon or some of the best training facilities in the world.

 

When you consider all that England has as a footballing nation, we underachieve massively. We have the history, the money, the population that is crazy about football and the facilities. The fact that we're currently ranked 15th in the world, behind countries like Greece and Chile, is frankly shameful. England has everything in place to have a team that is consistently among the best, and by that I mean genuinely one of the main contenders for trophies along with Brazil and Germany, but it doesn't have the right people in charge to bring it about.

 

It's down to attitude as well, an attitude that goes right back. It's almost as though we think that the name of England will simply improve things by itself, but the FA needs to realise that it needs to work massively on the English style. Germany did it at the start of century, realising that the three World Cups and harking back to Beckenbauer and Muller did bugger all when being dumped out of the Euros by Romania and smashed 5-1 at home by an England side that had Heskey up front. They go to Brazil in the summer as one of the favourites. Spain realised that the fact of their club football being among the very best on the planet meant nothing on the international stage, so invested time and effort into development. Two European Championships and a maiden World Cup later, it's safe to say it's worked for them.

 

We need to learn from foreign coaches and methods and employ them. There is no point having the best training facilities in the world at St. George's Park and then paying long ball merchants like Boothroyd to run it for you. 

 

Long ball is dead. It's been dead at the highest level for twenty years or more, and even the majority of teams in our division have binned it as a style. Christ, even Stoke keep it on the deck these days. 

 

We can't simply copy the styles of these successful foreign nations, but we can implement some of their style alongside ours. Technical ability needs to be worked on for ball retention, but we also need to press and work hard off the ball. We need to look objectively at what often makes foreign players struggle to adapt when they come to the Premier League and consider how to use that information to our advantage in a game situation; most foreign players will tell you that the pace and intensity is what they most struggle with, so implement that in a game rather than slowly pass it sideways for 90 minutes. Get in teams' faces and learn to retain the ball whilst still moving it around at speed. This is what teams in the top five, the top ten, do well. It's not as if we don't have the resources to work with.

 

This all means that we can use the proliferation of foreign players and coaches in the English game to our advantage rather than our detriment, crying about how they're stopping English players from getting a chance is self-pitying and self-defeating.  We can learn from them whilst they're here and think why we're importing foreign players.

 

Are people genuinely content with the standard of our national team? England fans get stick for having too high expectations but can anyone name a good reason that our long-term goal shouldn't be to be one of the best teams in the world? We have as much going for us as anyone and yet we aren't even close.

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

 

Well yeah, on the whole, it's pretty bad, sort of masked by the fact that they're the best team in the world now, they were shite (like we are now) for decades before, they have an appalling history for such a big footballing nation. 

 

And even if it's not bad I would certainly not go as far as saying it is good. You might be right in stating that we are better than 90% of the world and I don't know what point you are trying to make with that though, I don't think the fact that we have a better football team and football structure than the likes of The Cook Islands Pakistan and San Marino is relevant to what is being discussed here. You argue pointless facts to try and make us sounds like we are still genuinely big players in international football when in reality we are behind, drastically behind 14-18 nations across South America and Europe and a World Cup Quarter final seems like a dream to most people at the moment. Not a situation we should be in. 

 

 

It means that we are not shite.

 

The Cooks Islands, Pakistan and San Marino are shite.

 

It'd be like saying that Arsenal are shite because they are not as good as Chelsea or Bayern Munich.

 

Who are these 14-18 nations we are drastically behind?

 

I can think of Spain, Germany and Brazil at most.

 

The World Cup quarter-final is a realistic aim.

 

Really we should be finishing above Uruguay and Costa Rica and it should not be beyond us to beat Colombia/Ivory Coast/Japan/Greece in the Last 16.

 

Getting knocked out by Spain or Brazil in the quarter-finals would be fair enough.

[Dan]

Not really, it's only 2 teams out of 18.

 

Schalke and Bayer Leverkusen both got smashed at home in current round of the Champions League.

 

Also German teams haven't been doing that well in the Europa League.

 

You can bleat on about German clubs' performance in Europe this year but I'm pretty sure they'll have more teams in the 'Champions' League quarters than we will.

[MC Prussian]

Well it wasn't in a thread based on the Bundesliga. 

Every single time someone mentions English football improving then there are people who jump up and tell us all English football should copy the German model. It's boring now. 

Nope. All I'm saying is that FA representatives should analyze the model, learn from it and implement bits and pieces the best way possible, whilst paying attention to the English system and the current foundations.

 

You can't copy that system, anyway. One would be foolish to do so.

[Dan]

It means that we are not shite.

 

The Cooks Islands, Pakistan and San Marino are shite.

 

It'd be like saying that Arsenal are shite because they are not as good as Chelsea or Bayern Munich.

 

Who are these 14-18 nations we are drastically behind?

 

I can think of Spain, Germany and Brazil at most.

 

The World Cup quarter-final is a realistic aim.

 

Really we should be finishing above Uruguay and Costa Rica and it should not be beyond us to beat Colombia/Ivory Coast/Japan/Greece in the Last 16.

 

Getting knocked out by Spain or Brazil in the quarter-finals would be fair enough.

 

Spain, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France, Holland, Colombia, Uruguay, Belgium, Portugal.

 

I would take any one of their squads over ours at the minute.

 

Quarters would be a massive over-achievement.

[MC Prussian]

Yes, the same as Spain.

 

It's not exactly a bad record is it?

 

EDIT: Only Brazil, Italy, Germany, Argentina and Mexico have appeared in more World Cups than we have (it would only be Brazil, Italy and Germany if we had entered the first 3 World cups)

 

Only Germany, Brazil, Italy and Argentina have played more World Cup games than we have

That's great. Thanks for omitting the fact that historically, there were far less teams competing in a World Cup in the beginnings.

It's not that tough justifying the number of appearances of English teams over the course of the WC's history then, is it?

 

You may also want to look at how teams got to the World Cup and what other teams they had to beat in the qualifying stages in order to get there.

(Yes, I know we had an "easy" group this time around)

[Corky]

Are people genuinely content with the standard of our national team? England fans get stick for having too high expectations but can anyone name a good reason that our long-term goal shouldn't be to be one of the best teams in the world? We have as much going for us as anyone and yet we aren't even close.

 

There is no reason, we have almost unlimited resources to produce better coaches and improve standards within our game. We need to stop blaming the foreign invasion for holding us back (total myth, we failed to qualify and struggled at major tournaments long before we had so many foreigners in our league) and look at the positive traits they have. The competition should force us to improve our own.

 

Similarly, I'd like to see more of our youngsters go abroad for loan spells or transfers to learn different ways in terms of technique, lifestyle, preparation. Other countries haven't been harmed by seeing their squads based all over Europe and beyond, maybe ours could benefit?

 

We don't need 400 average English players, we need 30-40 upper class players to pick from.

[MC Prussian]

Yes but they've never won the World Cup have they.

 

Germany have 54 year old manager who has won nothing despite being in charge for over 100 games.

 

Not really.

 

When we were ranked 3rd in the world no-one took the FIFA rankings seriously.

Löw was 48 when he took over. Since then, his track record with Germany is as follows:

- Finalist at Euro 2008

- 3rd place at the 2010 World Cup

- Semi-finalist at Euro 2012

 

Now compare that to England's achievements in the past six years.

[Uncle Albert]

Italy's squad over ours?  

[Dan]

Yes. Quite considerably. We've been through this.

[Manwell Pablo]

 

 

 

 

It means that we are not shite.

 

The Cooks Islands, Pakistan and San Marino are shite.

 

It'd be like saying that Arsenal are shite because they are not as good as Chelsea or Bayern Munich.

 

Who are these 14-18 nations we are drastically behind?

 

I can think of Spain, Germany and Brazil at most.

 

The World Cup quarter-final is a realistic aim.

 

Really we should be finishing above Uruguay and Costa Rica and it should not be beyond us to beat Colombia/Ivory Coast/Japan/Greece in the Last 16.

 

Getting knocked out by Spain or Brazil in the quarter-finals would be fair enough.

 

 

You really do know nothing or are seriously blinkered. End of discussion. 

 

I'll do what I do best and wait for Uruguay to embarrass us in the summer and get on my high horse with this one I think. Much as I hope I'm wrong like.

[Dan]

There is no reason, we have almost unlimited resources to produce better coaches and improve standards within our game. We need to stop blaming the foreign invasion for holding us back (total myth, we failed to qualify and struggled at major tournaments long before we had so many foreigners in our league) and look at the positive traits they have. The competition should force us to improve our own.

 

Similarly, I'd like to see more of our youngsters go abroad for loan spells or transfers to learn different ways in terms of technique, lifestyle, preparation. Other countries haven't been harmed by seeing their squads based all over Europe and beyond, maybe ours could benefit?

 

We don't need 400 average English players, we need 30-40 upper class players to pick from.

 

I don't like the high number of foreign players in the Premier League simply because I think it's making the league lose its identity. I've nothing against those players, but it isn't a case of the top foreign players like Suarez & Aguero taking over the league now, it's completely average ones. I'd think the exact same about any league who has its own nationality as a minority in the league.

 

The bottom line for me is international football is viewed as secondary to the Premier League.

 

No-one is going to convince me that Aidy Boothroyd is a positive appointment for the future of the national team. What basis has he actually got the job on? Did anyone else even want the job?

 

C-Man's point about the amount spent on youth development says it all really. 0.5%. Pathetic. I'd expect us to go further backwards before we ever actually try and become what we're capable of being - one of the elite sides.

You really do know nothing or are seriously blinkered. End of discussion. 

 

I'll do what I do best and wait for Uruguay to embarrass us in the summer and get on my high horse with this one I think. Much as I hope I'm wrong like.

 

Or we'll draw with them following a goalkeeping masterclass and the usual suspects on here will sweep it under the carpet as usual

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

You can bleat on about German clubs' performance in Europe this year but I'm pretty sure they'll have more teams in the 'Champions' League quarters than we will.

 

And we have more teams in the Europa League quarters than they will.

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

Spain, Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France, Holland, Colombia, Uruguay, Belgium, Portugal.

 

I would take any one of their squads over ours at the minute.

 

Quarters would be a massive over-achievement.

 

That's your opinion but they are not "drastically" ahead of us.

 

Quarters would not be a massive over-achievement at all.

 

To get to the quarters we just need to do better than Uruguay and Costa Rica then one of Colombia, Japan, Greece and Ivory Coast.

 

None of those countries are heavyweight nations.

 

Getting past Spain or Brazil in the quarter-finals would be a massive over-achievement.

[ealingfox]

Away from the futile England-bashing, that bit about Davies is hilariously disturbing.

 

I knew he was a hoofball merchant, a serial bottler and a bang-average manager, but I certainly didn't know he was this much of an unhinged nutter. I was reading a bit of the Davies Out thread on LTLF earlier (lots of it sounded quite familiar actually) and considering his record, a lot of them seem to really gloss over how bizarre and unusual his actions are.

 

The guy's a mug, and it looks like they'll bottle it yet again under him. Fair play to a lot of their fans for wanting to stick with him next season, but you can only see the same thing happening again, the situation is really quite different to us and big Nige last year.

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

That's great. Thanks for omitting the fact that historically, there were far less teams competing in a World Cup in the beginnings.

It's not that tough justifying the number of appearances of English teams over the course of the WC's history then, is it?

 

You may also want to look at how teams got to the World Cup and what other teams they had to beat in the qualifying stages in order to get there.

(Yes, I know we had an "easy" group this time around)

 

Yes and we didn't even enter the first 3 World Cups so a lot of nations have had a head start on us (Switzerland included)

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

Löw was 48 when he took over. Since then, his track record with Germany is as follows:

- Finalist at Euro 2008

- 3rd place at the 2010 World Cup

- Semi-finalist at Euro 2012

 

Now compare that to England's achievements in the past six years.

 

What's it got to do with England?

 

Compare it to Germany's past achievements and to have won nothing in over 100 games is not great.

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

You really do know nothing or are seriously blinkered. End of discussion. 

 

I'll do what I do best and wait for Uruguay to embarrass us in the summer and get on my high horse with this one I think. Much as I hope I'm wrong like.

 

Yes Uruguay who couldn't beat Team GB in the Olympics despite having Suarez and Cavani in their team.

[Dan]

And we have more teams in the Europa League quarters than they will.

 

Scraping the barrel here. The Europa League is crap.

 

For the amount of money Premier League clubs spend, they should absolutely dominate Europe - but they don't. England lack's an elite side like Bayern, Barca or Real.

 

That's your opinion but they are not "drastically" ahead of us.

 

Quarters would not be a massive over-achievement at all.

 

To get to the quarters we just need to do better than Uruguay and Costa Rica then one of Colombia, Japan, Greece and Ivory Coast.

 

None of those countries are heavyweight nations.

 

Getting past Spain or Brazil in the quarter-finals would be a massive over-achievement.

 

"Just need to do better than Uruguay". I think you're in for a surprise when we play them.

 

If England progress past Uruguay and Colombia then that in my opinion, is over-achievement given the squad we have.

 

The fact you'd consider quarters a success yet think there's only three sides better than us speaks volumes.

Yes Uruguay who couldn't beat Team GB in the Olympics despite having Suarez and Cavani in their team.

 

Yep, you've definitely just scraped the barrel.

[Corky]

That's your opinion but they are not "drastically" ahead of us.

 

Quarters would not be a massive over-achievement at all.

 

To get to the quarters we just need to do better than Uruguay and Costa Rica then one of Colombia, Japan, Greece and Ivory Coast.

 

None of those countries are heavyweight nations.

 

Getting past Spain or Brazil in the quarter-finals would be a massive over-achievement.

 

How would beating a side with the same World Cup success record be massive overachievement?