Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 Again, you fail to grasp how competitive it is in South America - with only ten teams competing all the time. Point is - England would struggle tremendously in the beginning if they were matched up against teams in the CONMEBOL on a regular basis. Maybe with time, they'd be able to up their ante. But qualifying from European groups with much weaker competition - year in, year out - isn't an achievement. It's harder to qualify from Europe. They only have 10 teams yet they have 6 teams at the World Cup this year. You think that Ecuador would qualify through Europe?
Manwell Pablo Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 It's harder to qualify from Europe. They only have 10 teams yet they have 6 teams at the World Cup this year. You think that Ecuador would qualify through Europe? Top seeding, more than likely, no one would take a point off them at home.
MC Prussian Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 It's harder to qualify from Europe. They only have 10 teams yet they have 6 teams at the World Cup this year. You think that Ecuador would qualify through Europe? What? England are usually seeded top spot, the remaining four to five teams normally make it out amongst themselves who'll get the the golden lantern. England have yet to be thrown into a tough qualifying group for a European or World Championship. South America may have six teams at the World Cup - one, however, is the host. Another one qualified through the playoff stage (not always a given). And yes, a team like Ecuador would qualify through Europe. Because the groups are actually easier.
Donut Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 Ecuador would get through European qualifying fairly easily i would have thought. Playing at altitude is a huge advantage to them, plus their top seeding would have them avoiding the bigger teams that they are drawn with by default in south america.
Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 Ecuador would not be a top seed though. Ecuador are not better than teams like Sweden, Ukraine, Serbia etc who didn't qualify.
Dan Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 England have it easier to qualify than Ecuador do. The two are incomparable.
Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 I doubt that Ecuador could top Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro in a group. 60% of South American teams qualified for Brazil. 25% of European teams qualified for Brazil.
Stadt Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 I doubt that Ecuador could top Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro in a group. 60% of South American teams qualified for Brazil. 25% of European teams qualified for Brazil. FIFA World CupWinners (1): 1966 Fourth place (1): 1990 UEFA European Championship Third place (1): 1968 Semi-final (1): 1996
Donut Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 I doubt that Ecuador could top Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro in a group. 60% of South American teams qualified for Brazil. 25% of European teams qualified for Brazil. 100% of South America's teams are competitive and good enough to beat anyone within the group. Europe contains genuine cannon fodder in every group.
MC Prussian Posted 10 March 2014 Posted 10 March 2014 I doubt that Ecuador could top Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro in a group. 60% of South American teams qualified for Brazil. 25% of European teams qualified for Brazil. Sometimes I wonder what kind of logic you're applying to your argumentation. Brazil has already been set as the hosts this year - one team less to account for in your curious 60% case. They did not need to "qualify" in the first place! Uruguay just scraped by. There's only ten competitive teams in South America, anyway. Can't recall the last time the two Guyanas and Suriname took part. By sheer numbers, there's more equally strong teams in Europe, but they're all divided amongst different qualifying groups, so they hardly ever face each other. Totally different scenario. Contrary to Europe, South America doesn't know minnows such as San Marino, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta or Gibraltar. Having to compete against one of these countries already distorts the comparison big time.
Manwell Pablo Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 I doubt that Ecuador could top Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro in a group. 60% of South American teams qualified for Brazil. 25% of European teams qualified for Brazil. Ecuador are close to unbeatable at home due to the altitude Brazil and Argentina have gone there on several occasions over the last 10 years and lost/drawn on many occasions, they'd have little problem dispatching the likes of Ukraine Poland and Monenegro who are even less accustomed to playing in those conditions than some of the South American teams who fail to get results there more often than not. They would turn San Marino and Moldova over away with some ease and that would already give them 7 wins from the group surpassing our six and inflicting a defeat on 2nd place Ukraine that we didn't manage. So many teams qualify from South America for a reason, the five teams that went to 2010 produced four group winners and one runners up, and even that was to the eventual winners of the tournament. I'd say South American football is in a even stronger position now than it was then and this is forgetting the tournament is taking place on their continent this time around, I can see why you are attempting to single out Ecuador to promote your argument and to be honest without their home fortress to fall back on they could well struggle more than most teams from that region, although I still fancy them to make the round of 16 just ahead of the Swiss (sorry Alex) I would write off any team from that part of the world at your absolute peril, I can't see anyone but Brazil or Argentina winning it personally.
Dan Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 There isn't any logic to half of things the Villa fan says. Absolutely blatant bias and it's so embarrassing the amount of his arguments that contradict each other. If anything he's just convinced me even more about what I think of the standard of the English team.
Uncle Albert Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Yes. Quite considerably. We've been through this. Yeah and when we went through it you could never show me where you can suggest Italy have a better squad than England's. Italy seriously are a myth in modern football, how people can suggest their National side, Serie A and Italian footballers are superior to anything England has to offer is damn right stupid. World Cup qualifying alone tells you they aren't a good side, well no better than us anyway. Oh wait, sorry, they have Pirlo who tore England apart in a 0-0 two years ago. Serious question to the FoxesTalk English posters (not Swiss), who has the brighter future England or Italy in terms of youth and talent coming through?
Uncle Albert Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 I don't need evidence, nor does a friendly two years ago class for evidence. I would personally take either of their squad's over ours. How hypocritical when you banged on for a week that Italy were superior to England because of their apparent dominance over us in Euro 2012, a match from two years ago.
C-man Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Serious question to the FoxesTalk English posters (not Swiss), who has the brighter future England or Italy in terms of youth and talent coming through? Unless they watch a serious amount of both the PL and Serie A no one will be able to answer that question. What Italian will have heard of Redmond, Ince, Morrison, Ward-Prowse etc? Even Stirling and Townsend?
Uncle Albert Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Unless they watch a serious amount of both the PL and Serie A no one will be able to answer that question. What Italian will have heard of Redmond, Ince, Morrison, Ward-Prowse etc? Even Stirling and Townsend? Most Italians will have heard of Sterling, Sturridge, Wilshire, Barkley and Townsend, they're playing for the top teams in the Premier League, the most watched League in the World. Just like a lot of us will have heard of Veratti, De Sciglio, El Shaarawy, Destro and Insigne. But that is all they have coming through, nobody else looks like they are going to be able to cut the mustard, yeah there will be a few more but Italian Football is looking bleak, much worse than ours. The current Italy squad compared to ours is seriously no better. 1 GK Gianluigi Buffon (Captain) 28 January 1978 (age 36) 139 0 Italy Juventus 12 GK Salvatore Sirigu 12 January 1987 (age 27) 7 0 France Paris Saint-Germain 26 GK Mattia Perin 10 November 1992 (age 21) 0 0 Italy Genoa 3 DF Giorgio Chiellini 14 August 1984 (age 29) 67 4 Italy Juventus 15 DF Andrea Barzagli 8 May 1981 (age 32) 47 0 Italy Juventus 19 DF Leonardo Bonucci 1 May 1987 (age 26) 35 2 Italy Juventus 2 DF Christian Maggio 11 February 1982 (age 32) 34 0 Italy Napoli 4 DF Domenico Criscito 30 December 1986 (age 27) 22 0 Russia Zenit Saint Petersburg 7 DF Ignazio Abate 12 November 1986 (age 27) 18 1 Italy Milan 20 DF Mattia De Sciglio 20 October 1992 (age 21) 9 0 Italy Milan 13 DF Davide Astori 7 January 1987 (age 27) 7 1 Italy Cagliari 14 DF Gabriel Paletta 15 February 1986 (age 28) 1 0 Italy Parma 21 MF Andrea Pirlo 19 May 1979 (age 34) 108 13 Italy Juventus 18 MF Riccardo Montolivo 18 January 1985 (age 29) 57 2 Italy Milan 8 MF Claudio Marchisio 19 January 1986 (age 28) 42 2 Italy Juventus 23 MF Emanuele Giaccherini 5 May 1985 (age 28) 19 3 England Sunderland 5 MF Thiago Motta 28 August 1982 (age 31) 19 1 France Paris Saint-Germain 6 MF Antonio Candreva 28 February 1987 (age 27) 19 0 Italy Lazio 24 MF Marco Verratti 5 November 1992 (age 21) 4 1 France Paris Saint-Germain 16 MF Marco Parolo 25 January 1985 (age 29) 2 0 Italy Parma 11 FW Alberto Gilardino 5 July 1982 (age 31) 57 19 Italy Genoa 10 FW Pablo Osvaldo 12 January 1986 (age 28) 14 4 Italy Juventus 25 FW Alessio Cerci 23 July 1987 (age 26) 10 0 Italy Torino 22 FW Mattia Destro 20 March 1991 (age 22) 5 1 Italy Roma 17 FW Lorenzo Insigne 4 June 1991 (age 22) 4 1 Italy Napoli 9 FW Ciro Immobile 20 February 1990 (age 24) 1 0 Italy Torino How in Gods name is that better than our current squad? Seriously?
Manwell Pablo Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Most Italians will have heard of Sterling, Sturridge, Wilshire, Barkley and Townsend, they're playing for the top teams in the Premier League, the most watched League in the World. Just like a lot of us will have heard of Veratti, De Sciglio, El Shaarawy, Destro and Insigne. But that is all they have coming through, nobody else looks like they are going to be able to cut the mustard, yeah there will be a few more but Italian Football is looking bleak, much worse than ours. The current Italy squad compared to ours is seriously no better. 1 GK Gianluigi Buffon (Captain) 28 January 1978 (age 36) 139 0 Italy Juventus 12 GK Salvatore Sirigu 12 January 1987 (age 27) 7 0 France Paris Saint-Germain 26 GK Mattia Perin 10 November 1992 (age 21) 0 0 Italy Genoa 3 DF Giorgio Chiellini 14 August 1984 (age 29) 67 4 Italy Juventus 15 DF Andrea Barzagli 8 May 1981 (age 32) 47 0 Italy Juventus 19 DF Leonardo Bonucci 1 May 1987 (age 26) 35 2 Italy Juventus 2 DF Christian Maggio 11 February 1982 (age 32) 34 0 Italy Napoli 4 DF Domenico Criscito 30 December 1986 (age 27) 22 0 Russia Zenit Saint Petersburg 7 DF Ignazio Abate 12 November 1986 (age 27) 18 1 Italy Milan 20 DF Mattia De Sciglio 20 October 1992 (age 21) 9 0 Italy Milan 13 DF Davide Astori 7 January 1987 (age 27) 7 1 Italy Cagliari 14 DF Gabriel Paletta 15 February 1986 (age 28) 1 0 Italy Parma 21 MF Andrea Pirlo 19 May 1979 (age 34) 108 13 Italy Juventus 18 MF Riccardo Montolivo 18 January 1985 (age 29) 57 2 Italy Milan 8 MF Claudio Marchisio 19 January 1986 (age 28) 42 2 Italy Juventus 23 MF Emanuele Giaccherini 5 May 1985 (age 28) 19 3 England Sunderland 5 MF Thiago Motta 28 August 1982 (age 31) 19 1 France Paris Saint-Germain 6 MF Antonio Candreva 28 February 1987 (age 27) 19 0 Italy Lazio 24 MF Marco Verratti 5 November 1992 (age 21) 4 1 France Paris Saint-Germain 16 MF Marco Parolo 25 January 1985 (age 29) 2 0 Italy Parma 11 FW Alberto Gilardino 5 July 1982 (age 31) 57 19 Italy Genoa 10 FW Pablo Osvaldo 12 January 1986 (age 28) 14 4 Italy Juventus 25 FW Alessio Cerci 23 July 1987 (age 26) 10 0 Italy Torino 22 FW Mattia Destro 20 March 1991 (age 22) 5 1 Italy Roma 17 FW Lorenzo Insigne 4 June 1991 (age 22) 4 1 Italy Napoli 9 FW Ciro Immobile 20 February 1990 (age 24) 1 0 Italy Torino How in Gods name is that better than our current squad? Seriously? As Dan say's we've already done this but I guess we're going to do it again. Starting eleven, better keeper hands down. Defence, Italy's is easily better, Chilellni is better than any center half we have now we don't have Terry and Barzagli and Bonnuci are both better than Jagielka for me, and they have cover there unlike us if something happens to one of our starters we're down the Jones and Smallings of his world, let's not even talk right backs as ours are both disgraceful and it's probably our weakest position in a week England team and Maggio is a very good player, if we're going to take and play Cole we have a better option at left back but Woy is making noises like he might opt for Baines. They have Pirlo we have Gerrard, who would rather have? I'd probably go for Pirlo in the conditions the games are going to be played in as he's more capable of running a game from deep lying positions than Gerrard but they are much of a muchness imo two very good players in their own right. De Rossi (I know he's not listed there but he still plays must of been injured) is a better player than anyone else in our engine room bar Gerrard though, vastly more capable and experienced than the extremely over rated Wilshire who will more than likely get the nod. And to be honest I think Marchiso Montlivo would get into our midfield at the moment. Barkley is exciting but roar and inexperienced, he could have a good tournament, but I think most pundits would say the Italians unquestionably have the edge in midfield. Going forwards we might just have the edge as aside from Balotelli who's having a decent season in a disappointing Milan side they don't have that much and have been reduced to bringing Giladinho back into the fold. I don't think their younger strikers are all that bar one you haven't named, Berardi who has bags of potential but still needs to develop more before being capped. I don't think there's a massive amount in it and if we are to qualify they are most certainly the team to beat, especially as they have a habit of starting slowly at big tournaments and they can't afford to do that this time round given the strength of the group and that most people would expect Uruguay to top it and us and Italy to be dukeing it out for 2nd. However in my opinion, on paper, they're the better team. Their league might not be the super power it once was their clubs might not have lit up the Champions League either but there is no doubting their national team is capable as a Euro final and third place at the confeds shows, you might have a different opinion........but no we are not that much better than the Italians that you can laugh at the suggestion and call it absurd, I think if you canvased unbiased opinions from around World Football most would say Italy are the stronger squad.
Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Why would most people expect Uruguay to top the group? Italy did better than Uruguay at the Confederations Cup.
Manwell Pablo Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Why would most people expect Uruguay to top the group? Italy did better than Uruguay at the Confederations Cup. Because they have a better team, perhaps.
MC Prussian Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Why would most people expect Uruguay to top the group? Italy did better than Uruguay at the Confederations Cup. They have the right mix of youth and experience (with Forlan, Rios, Pérez and Lugano), put a strong emphasis on team spirit and team effort, they are hard to break down, usually give 110 percent and possess a few key players in the form of their lifetime (Suarez, Cavani). I can see this World Cup becoming Uruguay's finest moment in decades - you may think of it as a logical continuation and evolution of the 2010 tournament.
Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Because they have a better team, perhaps. Better strikers you mean. Their captain can't even get a game for West Bromwich Albion.
Manwell Pablo Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Better strikers you mean. Their captain can't even get a game for West Bromwich Albion. No I mean better team. Their captain clearly hasn't fitted in at West Brom this doesn't make him a bad player. And in Godin he has someone next to him who is better than any center back we have, and Maxi Pereira is much, much better than any of our woeful right back options. They have a dangerous winger in Rodriguez and Gargano is a better break up player than any we've got, add to that arguable the best strike force in the tournament and you have a formidable team playing on it's home continent, top seeded in the group for a reason their a force to be reckoned with, unless you're a little Englander like yourself.
Manwell Pablo Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 Better team than Italy you said. Well yeah they probably do, they match up well against Italy and will create more chances then they do (like the last time they played) Although I'd say the Italians have a much better chance of getting some joy against them than we will by retaining the football and frustrating. You'd always expect Uruguay to score where as Italy repeating the feat of scoring two goals against them like they did in the confeds would be a big ask with just Balotelli to rely on, but they managed it without him last time so who knows, you have to question how much people are putting in in a 3rd/4th play off in the confeds though. I could potentially see a draw between the two teams if Italy have a good game. But then this if football anything can happen, we could go and beat them both and lose to Costa Rica. It is just very clear to me that on paper we're third favorites.
Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 11 March 2014 Posted 11 March 2014 I'd say it's even between the three teams. Uruguay are overrated and England are underrated. Really though we should be finishing above a nation of 3 million people and if we don't get through the group then Roy Hodgson has to go.
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