Route 1 football - England's future?

[MC Prussian]

The new nations are not exactly Brazil or Germany.

 

Countries like Croatia and Ukraine or Ghana are still below us in the pecking order.

 

The best countries are still the original footballing powerhouses e.g. Brazil, Germany, Italy.

 

A group stage exit in a 32-team World Cup is simply not good enough for a footballing nation of our stature.

That maybe - but for how much longer?

 

Btw, Uruguay is also an "original footballing powerhouse".

 

You can moan about England having to proceed past the group stage as much as you want to, but the World Cup has its own dynamics.

And Italy and Uruguay both have better teams than England at the moment.

[Uncle Albert]

Italy are not a better side than us and there is no evidence to suggest it. 

[l444ry]

Italy are far superior than England. Always have been in my lifetime (barring a few odd moments in time). I wouldn't read too much into recent friendlies either when assessing their strength. They experiment while England and its fans treat friendlies as life or death matters. When the real thing starts, they'll be ready!

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

Far superior yet they couldn't beat us at Euro 2012?

[Manwell Pablo]

Far superior yet they couldn't beat us at Euro 2012?

 

You must have watched a different game to me Italy won the one I was watching.

[Donut]

This debate is going to go round and round.

 

Italy battered us at the Euro's. Its a fact. It could have been 4-0. The 0-0 flattered us.

[Stadt]

In 5 years we could potentially have a better side than Italy but they'll probably have a better side.

Their players are more comfortable on the ball, Chienilli and Barzagli are streets ahead of Jagielka and Cahill. Pirlo and Marchisio are better than everybody other than Gerrard in midfield.

Their squad has more quality in depth too.

[Pride_Of_The_Midlands]

You must have watched a different game to me Italy won the one I was watching.

 

It was 0-0

[MC Prussian]

It was 0-0

And ended in favour of Italy after penalties.

[Uncle Albert]

We're still discussing a game from two years ago when trying to suggest Italy are 'far superior' to England? Seriously two years ago? Crying out loud. 

 

Look at the World Cup qualifying group if you want to look at recent times, qualified on the same amount of points after the same amount of games, England had a more testing group than Italy and England scored more goals and conceded less than Italy. Who is the more superior? 

 

The Italian squad is not superior to the England squad, no chance. Lack of youth coming through as well, compared to our squad. Lack of goals in that squad, again compared to ours. Think I am right in saying, if you compared Italy's squad that went to Spain recently compared to our squad that took on Denmark, the Italian squad combined has just under 60 goals between them compared to England's squad that has over 100 goals and the England squad has a much younger average age. 

 

Let alone the fact the last time England met Italy wasn't that hammering Italy gave England in a nil nil draw, it was England who BEAT the superior Italians in MC Prussians homeland of Switzerland in a friendly shortly after Euro 2012, where both teams pretty much fielded different elevens. 

 

But you're all spot on, Italy are much better than England. 

[BlueSi13]

So same old story then? Nobody really expecting England to achieve much.....again?

 

My personal opinion looking at the current team is that escaping the group would be a result for us.  Sad that it's come to this but at the moment, it's our level.

 

However, there will always be optimism when it comes to the national side, we have literally everything going in our favour so surely it will come good in the end right....right? 

[Guest MattP]

Let's be honest we're both shite nowadays compared to the standard of teams past, Uruguay should walk the group effectively in home conditions and the farce in Manaus when they can barely run in 90% humidity will sort one of us out.

 

Italy certainly mentally stronger than our footballers mind, that can be absolutely assured. Will probably be what sees us off.

[BlueSi13]

Let's be honest we're both shite nowadays compared to the standard of teams past, Uruguay should walk the group effectively in home conditions and the farce in Manaus when they can barely run in 90% humidity will sort one of us out.

 

Italy certainly mentally stronger than our footballers mind, that can be absolutely assured. Will probably be what sees us off.

Another factor I can't help but pay attention too is that England have a negative overall record against just four nations....two of them are in our group, Italy and Uruguay, both by one game, Is that a bad omen? Or can we turn things around against both in just a week? 

[Guest MattP]

Another factor I can't help but pay attention too is that England have a negative overall record against just four nations....two of them are in our group, Italy and Uruguay, both by one game, Is that a bad omen? Or can we turn things around against both in just a week? 

 

Don't think it makes too much difference given the changes International football goes through, we probably have a bad record against these two as they are both fantastic historical football nations who have won multiple World Cups.

[Donut]

We're still discussing a game from two years ago when trying to suggest Italy are 'far superior' to England? Seriously two years ago? Crying out loud. 

 

Look at the World Cup qualifying group if you want to look at recent times, qualified on the same amount of points after the same amount of games, England had a more testing group than Italy and England scored more goals and conceded less than Italy. Who is the more superior? 

 

The Italian squad is not superior to the England squad, no chance. Lack of youth coming through as well, compared to our squad. Lack of goals in that squad, again compared to ours. Think I am right in saying, if you compared Italy's squad that went to Spain recently compared to our squad that took on Denmark, the Italian squad combined has just under 60 goals between them compared to England's squad that has over 100 goals and the England squad has a much younger average age. 

 

Let alone the fact the last time England met Italy wasn't that hammering Italy gave England in a nil nil draw, it was England who BEAT the superior Italians in MC Prussians homeland of Switzerland in a friendly shortly after Euro 2012, where both teams pretty much fielded different elevens. 

 

But you're all spot on, Italy are much better than England. 

 

Im not going to go back to an old argument but im simply not having that. Englands group was complete gash and we made bloody hard work of getting out of it. Italy were home and dry with two dead rubbers left that they could have gone into stronger and put a different complexion on things.

 

We had Ukraine as the only real threat to us in the group, Montenegro are average at best and Poland? they had us on the ropes away, and if Lewandowski had taken his chance at 0-0 at Wembley who knows. But theyre an awful side.

[The Doctor]

That's your opinion but they are not "drastically" ahead of us.

 

Quarters would not be a massive over-achievement at all.

 

To get to the quarters we just need to do better than Uruguay and Costa Rica then one of Colombia, Japan, Greece and Ivory Coast.

 

None of those countries are heavyweight nations.

 

Getting past Spain or Brazil in the quarter-finals would be a massive over-achievement.

 

Hmm, Uruguay, 4th placed in the last world cup & current copa america holders... Please, if they don't absolutely thrash England given the two sides at the moment, then englands defence will have put in a herculean shift.

[Manwell Pablo]

We're still discussing a game from two years ago when trying to suggest Italy are 'far superior' to England? Seriously two years ago? Crying out loud. 

 

Look at the World Cup qualifying group if you want to look at recent times, qualified on the same amount of points after the same amount of games, England had a more testing group than Italy and England scored more goals and conceded less than Italy. Who is the more superior? 

 

The Italian squad is not superior to the England squad, no chance. Lack of youth coming through as well, compared to our squad. Lack of goals in that squad, again compared to ours. Think I am right in saying, if you compared Italy's squad that went to Spain recently compared to our squad that took on Denmark, the Italian squad combined has just under 60 goals between them compared to England's squad that has over 100 goals and the England squad has a much younger average age. 

 

Let alone the fact the last time England met Italy wasn't that hammering Italy gave England in a nil nil draw, it was England who BEAT the superior Italians in MC Prussians homeland of Switzerland in a friendly shortly after Euro 2012, where both teams pretty much fielded different elevens. 

 

But you're all spot on, Italy are much better than England. 

 

I've just put three paragraphs together on exactly why they are better than us. If you want to ignore it and talk about irrelevance's like age and friendlies two years ago and not focus on the fact that man for man they have better players that's entirely up to you, I aint doing it for a third time.

[Dan]

Yeah and when we went through it you could never show me where you can suggest Italy have a better squad than England's. Italy seriously are a myth in modern football, how people can suggest their National side, Serie A and Italian footballers are superior to anything England has to offer is damn right stupid.

 

World Cup qualifying alone tells you they aren't a good side, well no better than us anyway. 

 

Oh wait, sorry, they have Pirlo who tore England apart in a 0-0 two years ago. 

 

Serious question to the FoxesTalk English posters (not Swiss), who has the brighter future England or Italy in terms of youth and talent coming through? 

 

You're talking shite. You say that I can't prove Italy are better - OK then, how can you prove they aren't?

 

Do you think England would've beaten Germany in the Semis?

 

If Italy had a better forward than Balotelli (and they are totally capable of producing better than him) they would have won that game. The fact you cling onto a game that England eventually lost to show the usual mental weakness pretty much sums it up.

 

A serious answer, from someone English, who supports England, who has no ties to Italy at all - my answer is Italy.

[Dan]

 

How hypocritical when you banged on for a week that Italy were superior to England because of their apparent dominance over us in Euro 2012, a match from two years ago. 

 

It's you who brings up that game two years ago.

 

You and the Villa fan's bias is actually unbelievable.

[Dan]

Even if San Marino had the best coaching set-up known to man they will still be a terrible team due to their tiny population.

 

I just don't think it's acceptable we a nation of 53 million people should be finishing below a nation of 3 million people.

 

And I highly doubt that Uruguay have a better coaching set up than England.

 

lol

 

You are the most biased person I have ever seen in my entire life.

[Dan]

Far superior yet they couldn't beat us at Euro 2012?

 

Yeh they couldn't beat us. That must be why we went through seeing as it's a knock-out competition.

[Uncle Albert]

Im not going to go back to an old argument but im simply not having that. Englands group was complete gash and we made bloody hard work of getting out of it. Italy were home and dry with two dead rubbers left that they could have gone into stronger and put a different complexion on things.

 

We had Ukraine as the only real threat to us in the group, Montenegro are average at best and Poland? they had us on the ropes away, and if Lewandowski had taken his chance at 0-0 at Wembley who knows. But theyre an awful side.

 

Italy's group was that poor the runners up (Denmark) weren't even good enough to take a play off spot, Czech Republic are nowhere near the side they once were and Bulgaria, Armenia and Malta are all very, very poor. Compare that to England's group of Ukraine, Poland, Montenegro, Moldova and San Marino. Granted the last two are utter garbage, but Ukraine, Poland and Montenegro are better opposition than Denmark, Czech Republic and Bulgaria. 

 

If you think any different then you are a complete fool. So when you compare the Groups and see that England qualified on the same amount of points but with more goals scored and less goals conceded.

 

I've just put three paragraphs together on exactly why they are better than us. If you want to ignore it and talk about irrelevance's like age and friendlies two years ago and not focus on the fact that man for man they have better players that's entirely up to you, I aint doing it for a third time.

 

They don't have a better squad than us Manwell, surely you can see that? 

 

Barzagli and Bonnuci aren't better than Cahill currently. De Scaligio isn't better than Walker or Johnson and Maggio wouldn't get in ahead of Cole or Baines. 

 

Yeah Pirlo is good but you would be a fool to have him over Steven Gerrard. - De Rossi (30 years old) would be in there, but ageing and like you say the conditions are going to be a factor, so maybe a younger box to box midfielder would be a better option. Don't even say Motolivo is better than some of our players, very over hyped. Marchisio, fantastic footballer, no arguments with him. Yet we have further options from midfield in Lampard, Carrick, Sterling, the Ox, Townsend and Lallana, where are the other Italian options? Giaccherini, a 31 year old Motta or Candreva? 

 

Then there is Balotelli, you say is having a good season in a poor Milan season, fair but when you're your Nations number one striker and you have only 14 goals this season (in all competitions) and only 12 for your country in 4 years then I struggle to see how any Italian is better than Rooney or Sturridge. 

 

You're talking shite. You say that I can't prove Italy are better - OK then, how can you prove they aren't?

 

Do you think England would've beaten Germany in the Semis?

 

If Italy had a better forward than Balotelli (and they are totally capable of producing better than him) they would have won that game. The fact you cling onto a game that England eventually lost to show the usual mental weakness pretty much sums it up.

 

A serious answer, from someone English, who supports England, who has no ties to Italy at all - my answer is Italy.

 

Germany were terrible in that semi-final, so they were there for taking that day. You can't answer that question, even Italy didn't believe they could beat Germany beforehand, then look what happened, thought they were a good side because they had dispatched Germany and got spanked by Spain who didn't play with a striker.

 

I'm not clinging on to that 1/4 final defeat, far from it infact. If you cared to reply or acknowledge my previous post before this then you would see I can easily debate Italy not being superior to England, England having a brighter future than Italy and England having just as good a side as Italy quite easily. 

 

So to answer your first question in your silly post, I have easily proven that Italy aren't in fact to better than England and far from it. 

[Dan]

Germany were terrible in that semi-final, so they were there for taking that day. You can't answer that question, even Italy didn't believe they could beat Germany beforehand, then look what happened, thought they were a good side because they had dispatched Germany and got spanked by Spain who didn't play with a striker.

 

I'm not clinging on to that 1/4 final defeat, far from it infact. If you cared to reply or acknowledge my previous post before this then you would see I can easily debate Italy not being superior to England, England having a brighter future than Italy and England having just as good a side as Italy quite easily. 

 

So to answer your first question in your silly post, I have easily proven that Italy aren't in fact to better than England and far from it. 

 

If Italy didn't believe they could beat Germany that day they wouldn't have gone 2 up early on.

 

Ironic that you mention me dodging a post of yours, just like you dodged Manwell's before spouting another load of crap only someone extremely biased towards England or someone extremely biased against Italy could come out with.

 

You posted up Italy's squad and tried to analyse how poor it is. Seriously? Look at ours. We are nothing special at all. We can be one day, and we definitely could've been before. I could understand us boasting against that Italy squad if we had the depth of Spain or Germany but we don't have even close to it.

 

You've proven nothing. You've convinced yourself and no-one else (except that Villa fan who I think was deluded to start with).

[Uncle Albert]

If Italy didn't believe they could beat Germany that day they wouldn't have gone 2 up early on.

 

Ironic that you mention me dodging a post of yours, just like you dodged Manwell's before spouting another load of crap only someone extremely biased towards England or someone extremely biased against Italy could come out with.

 

You posted up Italy's squad and tried to analyse how poor it is. Seriously? Look at ours. We are nothing special at all. We can be one day, and we definitely could've been before. I could understand us boasting against that Italy squad if we had the depth of Spain or Germany but we don't have even close to it.

 

You've proven nothing. You've convinced yourself and no-one else (except that Villa fan who I think was deluded to start with).

 

I didn't ignore Manwell's post, far from it infact. Another load of crap? Jesus christ have you ever re-read your posts? I come across as a nob, I can admit that. You? You're a very arrogant person on here, don't know why either. I have to watch what I say to people like you on here, otherwise I'll be banned. 

 

It isn't me being biased either, otherwise I would try and argue the fact we're better than most countries, I just honestly don't see how anyone can say Italy are superior to England, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that they are. All you're going on is your opinions about players, where as I am giving you hard facts. World Cup qualification is the biggest fact of all. Italy are an ageing side and there is no evidence to suggest that they have enough players coming through for the future to be a force in international football. 

 

Look at how many English players under the age of 25 are playing regular first team football for Premier League clubs? Compare that to Italy, where all young kids are on loan at lower Serie A clubs or Serie B. 

 

Jones

Walker

Shaw

Henderson

Wilshire

Oxlade-Chamberlain

Sterling

Townsend

Lallana

Barkley

Walcott

Sturridge

 

All these players are 25 or younger, all playing regular football in a much more competitive stronger league than Serie A and for clubs no lower than 9th in the League. Again you're right, we have no depth in our squad and they're not better than Italy. There's 12 players there who are playing for our national side now, plus Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard and Joe Hart who are world class footballers. And don't forget we'll have players like Lampard, Carrick, Milner, Cole, Baines and Johnson who all have International experience, all apart from Cole playing regularly for clubs in the top four (except Carrick). 

 

Brilliant how you can disregard stuff like this and claim Italy are superior, it seriously isn't me who is convincing myself of anything, it is a lot of you who are doing that. 

 

These aren't opinions either, they're facts. 

[Guest MattP]

Gerrard or Pirlo, that's a tough choice Albert, only a Liverpool or Juve fan could claim one is one is far superior than the other, both are capable of completely controlling games and are World Class footballers at their best.

 

I'm not buying how good are youngsters are though, I've seen it all before now, half that list produced are completely unproven at this level and are surrounded by better players like Suarez, Hazard, Moutinho, Oscar, RVP etc and generally go back to looking pretty average as soon as they pull on an England shirt.

 

Not an avid Serie A viewer but Insigne looks better than any English young player I can name at the minute, beautiful footballer.

 

Bookmakers have Italy as the stronger and they always favour England. They can't be any doubt the last time we played (despite the 0-0 result) Italy were a far better side than England.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18355305

 

 

Italy were vastly superior to England over the course of 120 minutes - but the resilience and organisation that have swiftly become the trademark under new manager Roy Hodgson took an enthralling game to penalties

England cannot complain that the better team did not emerge as winners - but even in the face of a constant wave of Italian attacks Hodgson's men still showed enough heart and durability to make their Euro 2012 exit with pride.

.

The stats at the bottom are an absolute massacre
 

Match Stats

 

37% - 63

 

Shots

England 8 - 31 Italy

On target

England 4 - 18 Italy

Corners

England 3 - 7 Italy