2015 Election season ..........stuff it in here.

[BlueSi13]

My mistake - misread the figures!

 

How prevalent is it in the UK? I would say that with our education and the fact that it's completely discredited by the academic and political mainstream in this country, that it would be a viewpoint grasped only by the fringes of society. It's obvious that you'll have some ignorant people in all communities, but it seems a bit unlikely that any significant proportion of Pakistanis born, raised and educated here would go in for some of the hysterical Jew hatred that goes on in the Middle East. 

 

I imagine most British Muslims are, understandably, anti-Zionist but that's a huge leap to say there's anything like a community problem with Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism.

 

Holocaust denial is clearly rife in the Arab world and growing in the Muslim world as a whole, but that's largely due to the fact that a lot of these countries are a long way from being what we would recognise as functioning democracies and the people are often under-educated or brought up in a virulently racist atmosphere. 

 

According to the NOP poll that was commissioned by Channel 4 in 2006 only 29% of British Muslims thought the Holocaust occurred.  You think attitudes have changed for the better in the past ten years?  I wish I shared your optimism.  

[ADK]

I meant to quote you but repped you by mistake.

 

Yes seriously, tell me what I've said that is wrong?

 

Pretty much all of it.

 

It's extremely patronising suggesting people out of work just mope about all day with no purpose and "refuse to help themselves". It's like something straight out of Victorian times. We have a case of somebody who died because they were probably too ashamed to seek the help they needed and the welfare system cut off their only source of income without any mechanism to check on their actual welfare. The bit about being in work and exercise is bizarre too, most jobs are making people physically less healthy.

 

Explain why Labour doesn't want people to work despite employment being at its highest under Blair and worst under Thatcher and Cameron?

[Webbo]

Pretty much all of it.

 

It's extremely patronising suggesting people out of work just mope about all day with no purpose and "refuse to help themselves". It's like something straight out of Victorian times. We have a case of somebody who died because they were probably too ashamed to seek the help they needed and the welfare system cut off their only source of income without any mechanism to check on their actual welfare. The bit about being in work and exercise is bizarre too, most jobs are making people physically less healthy.

 

Explain why Labour doesn't want people to work despite employment being at its highest under Blair and worst under Thatcher and Cameron?

 

 

So nobody on here will claim that people on benefits die younger?

 

There are records amounts of people in work now.

[Guest Bilo]

According to the NOP poll that was commissioned by Channel 4 in 2006 only 29% of British Muslims thought the Holocaust occurred.  You think attitudes have changed for the better in the past ten years?  I wish I shared your optimism.  

 

I'd be interested to see how large that survey was. 

 

Interestingly, the breakdown of those who did not fall into the category of explicitly agreeing it occurred was as follows.

 

2% - Denied it happened at all.

17% - It was exaggerated.

24% - No opinion.

23% - Did not know what the Holocaust was.

 

Also, a wider survey two years earlier showed that 14% of the general population thought that the Holocaust was exaggerated, the most popular view among 'revisionist' historians like David Irving, which is more or less the same as the proportion of Muslims.

[ADK]

So nobody on here will claim that people on benefits die younger?

 

There are records amounts of people in work now.

I'd imagine being poor would make you more likely to die younger.

 

I'm glad there are "record amounts of people in work", although I don't trust that to take into account underemployment and if they are using actual numbers rather than percentages it is also misleading. Unless we change the system though, there will always people unemployed and there will always be recessions, so we need to think about how we safeguard people's welfare.

[ADK]

I bet you could do 1000 polls of a small sample size and then pick the one that most suited your agenda, if you are making a sensationalist documentary then you will find a poll that supports what you want to say. Even taking that into account it would be equally valid from what Bilo said to state that "only 2% of British Muslims deny the Holocaust".

[Webbo]

I'd imagine being poor would make you more likely to die younger.

 

I'm glad there are "record amounts of people in work", although I don't trust that to take into account underemployment and if they are using actual numbers rather than percentages it is also misleading. Unless we change the system though, there will always people unemployed and there will always be recessions, so we need to think about how we safeguard people's welfare.

I believe it's in actual numbers rather than a percentage.

 

I've nothing against welfare as a safety net. I do get a bit offended though at the claim that giving someone money to do nothing is kinder/more compassionate than trying to get them into work. The idea that if you don't vote Labour you want to murder people in wheel chairs.

[ADK]

I believe it's in actual numbers rather than a percentage.

 

I've nothing against welfare as a safety net. I do get a bit offended though at the claim that giving someone money to do nothing is kinder/more compassionate than trying to get them into work. The idea that if you don't vote Labour you want to murder people in wheel chairs.

Those things aren't mutually exclusive, you can want a strong safety net and still prefer people to be employed. I don't think many people claim the last thing, but welfare has suffered under this Tory government. I don't mind which way people vote as the Conservatives are still fairly centrist, it is the public attitude to welfare which is more of a concern. Even Labour are likely to continue to target welfare for austerity, it's become an easy target for a selfish society.

[Parafox]

Well, at least I'll always have some left.

By the way, when I said "greedy for hand outs in some form", I was including public sector workers in that, so don't worry, you're covered.

 

I'm one of your hated public sector workers and the last time I checked, I don't get any hand-outs unless you include my usual salary, which i'm sure you begrudge me as well as all other public sector workers, bearing in mind public sector workers will include a (non-exhaustive) list of highly qualified people up to and above a highly educated and experienced professor of neurosurgery working in the NHS.

 

Or do you only despise those who work a low paid public sector job?

[Rincewind]

AW buce your making me blush

Seriously though, just because I vote conservative doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. I don't. I probably dislike Cameron almost as much some of you but when it comes to awful stories like these, I actually blame the previous system which left them dependant.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been avoided but the previous administration, clearly spoon fed these cases previously.

The lesson to be learnt is, we need to educate people on how to budget and live within the provided means before callously slashing their benefits. We need to make sue they have the tools and services available to look for jobs, and perhaps have job centre agents working closer to communities to avoid missed appointments.

Benefits for job seekers needed to be made fairer, they came so close to being better than a full time job on MW there was real danger of aspirations being eradicated.

I agree with a lot of this. Despite what some are  saying Labour will  not 'throw' money at those out of work or on benefits. They are in fact carrying on with cuts  in welfare. But I believe they will do it in a fairer  way. How is someone encouraged to find work if they do not have the means  to do it? Someone  with learning disabilities  or other cannot just walk into a  high  paid  job. I believe in making work more attractive. Those that are able should have the proper chanceof training not stacking shelves at Poundland for  pennies or not knowing when their next shift will be.  For job seekers maybe have a card system. Instead of immediate removal of benefits give notice of 2-3 weeks and also give advice and information  about emergancy payments. ATM this is not always done and the most  vulnerable  who may not understand fully  what  they are required to do. Replace computers in job centres and have staff on hand to help. This has been stopped under  the coalition resulting  in more people being  sanctioned for various reasons. Not everyone is computer savvy especially those made redundant at 55-60 or those with learning problems. They need  help not punishing.  Of course there will still be a few that play the system but they  are not the ones being targeted and suffering.

On disability I saw  a video/blog  about  a bloke in a wheelchair who is backpacking around the world without looking ahead at access for wheelchairs. So far he says China is worse. You cross roads in surges and said he has been elbowed and nearly pushed over  during the  rush. Someone  to admire  who does not let his disability get in the way.

[Guest Bilo]

I'm one of your hated public sector workers and the last time I checked, I don't get any hand-outs unless you include my usual salary, which i'm sure you begrudge me as well as all other public sector workers, bearing in mind public sector workers will include a (non-exhaustive) list of highly qualified people up to and above a highly educated and experienced professor of neurosurgery working in the NHS.

Or do you only despise those who work a low paid public sector job?

Privatise everything!

Worship the rich!

Burn the poor!

[MiniFox]

Sad to say, but Strokes is probably the closest thing to a compassionate Tory on here.

Truly depressing.

In that case I'm sorry Strokes

 

He missed two appointments, failed to respond to a letter, and didn't use any of the procedures he could have to get help. He appears to have been a very proud man, who would rather die than kick up a fuss about needing help. It's an extremely sad story, but I'm not really sure how much more the welfare system could reasonably be expected to have done.

What would have made a difference, is if he found it easier to find work. I think we'd be better off if politicians addressed this issue first because there's no doubt that had he found work this wouldn't have happened.

So what are the reasons he couldn't find work? Competition at the low-skilled end of the job market is quite fierce due to the ongoing uncontrollable flood of low-skilled workers coming in from other countries. We could look at managing immigration better so that it serves our people first.

We could look at how we manage the economy, ensuring that conditions are right to allow businesses to take risks on growing and employing more people. We could look at tax cuts or some other perk for businesses who can show they're contributing to social welfare by providing good numbers of good quality jobs.

We could also look at how we could lift people like him out of the low-skilled market. We could do this by encouraging more adults into education and retraining. We could cultivate a culture where periodic stints of training and education throughout life is the norm instead of education being seen as something that is done once at the start of your life and then never again. This will be particularly important as people's working life duration increases at the same time as change affecting the demand in the labour market occurs ever more rapidly.

All these things for me are far more appropriate reactions than simply throwing more money at the problem, going full ostrich and hoping the roots of these problems just go away by themselves.

Fair post, he did have help, seemingly to proud to take them, I generally do agree with the post. 

 

But more than anything, I like the way you manage to use the word ostrich and make it sound right.

[Parafox]

Privatise everything!

Worship the rich!

Burn the poor!

 

Mmmm, that's good, but it's not quite Moosebreath

[Parafox]

He missed two appointments, failed to respond to a letter, and didn't use any of the procedures he could have to get help. He appears to have been a very proud man, who would rather die than kick up a fuss about needing help. It's an extremely sad story, but I'm not really sure how much more the welfare system could reasonably be expected to have done.

What would have made a difference, is if he found it easier to find work. I think we'd be better off if politicians addressed this issue first because there's no doubt that had he found work this wouldn't have happened.

So what are the reasons he couldn't find work? Competition at the low-skilled end of the job market is quite fierce due to the ongoing uncontrollable flood of low-skilled workers coming in from other countries. We could look at managing immigration better so that it serves our people first.

We could look at how we manage the economy, ensuring that conditions are right to allow businesses to take risks on growing and employing more people. We could look at tax cuts or some other perk for businesses who can show they're contributing to social welfare by providing good numbers of good quality jobs.

We could also look at how we could lift people like him out of the low-skilled market. We could do this by encouraging more adults into education and retraining. We could cultivate a culture where periodic stints of training and education throughout life is the norm instead of education being seen as something that is done once at the start of your life and then never again. This will be particularly important as people's working life duration increases at the same time as change affecting the demand in the labour market occurs ever more rapidly.

All these things for me are far more appropriate reactions than simply throwing more money at the problem, going full ostrich and hoping the roots of these problems just go away by themselves.

 

I have to say, a lot of that is reasoned and reasonable.

 

It's a shame that generally, you come across as an uncaring, arrogant, single-minded, self-centred, nasty, vitriolic prat.

[MiniFox]

https://youtu.be/zwGBTcIHN0U?t=748

 

Russell Brand is now telling people to vote Labour, instead of not voting.

 

Who knows, may make a difference.

 

Sure many of you do not want to watch the whole 13 minutes, the link leads you to the end.

[MooseBreath]

I'm one of your hated public sector workers and the last time I checked, I don't get any hand-outs unless you include my usual salary, which i'm sure you begrudge me as well as all other public sector workers, bearing in mind public sector workers will include a (non-exhaustive) list of highly qualified people up to and above a highly educated and experienced professor of neurosurgery working in the NHS.

Or do you only despise those who work a low paid public sector job?

Public sector workers will get more out of labour than they will out of the tories, and I strongly suspect that heavily influences their voting. Maybe I'm wrong, but their almost constant threats to strike over pay suggests I'm right.

My problem with those public sector workers who will sell their vote, regardless of how well qualified they are, is that they're guilty of putting their own greed ahead of the very obvious funding problems we have, which in the case of the NHS, is only going to get much worse as the population ages. That in itself is fine, but it's their failure to admit their real reasons for voting that way that is so insufferable.

I'm quite happy to admit that I vote Tory because I think they'll do a better job with the economy, which will lead to more money for me and better services for both myself and everyone else.

Why can't public sector labour voters just admit they vote labour because it will more money into their pockets and stop pretending they care about anything else?

[Guest]

I'm going to vote for the Jamie Vardy Party.

[BlueSi13]

I'd be interested to see how large that survey was. 

 

Interestingly, the breakdown of those who did not fall into the category of explicitly agreeing it occurred was as follows.

 

2% - Denied it happened at all.

17% - It was exaggerated.

24% - No opinion.

23% - Did not know what the Holocaust was.

 

Also, a wider survey two years earlier showed that 14% of the general population thought that the Holocaust was exaggerated, the most popular view among 'revisionist' historians like David Irving, which is more or less the same as the proportion of Muslims.

 

Sorry but you're happy with the 2% that denied it altogether (if applied today that is 55,732 people)?  You're also happy that 24% had 'no opinion' (668,792)?  and you're also happy that 23% had no knowledge of greatest stain in human history (640,926)?

 

Have you got the breakdown of the wider non-muslim survey?  % of those that denied the holocaust, % with no opinion and % of no knowledge?

 

To deny that there currently is an issue with some of the social attitudes of a significant % of the British muslim populace does nothing to help the situation.  Collectively putting our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is tickety-boo betrays the large number of muslims who do not hold such abhorrent views and whose voices are being drowned out by the hate-filled minority.

 

IMO together we must be stronger as a country in clearly stating what values are unacceptable and what will not be tolerated going forward, imported cultural 'norms' or not.

[BlueSi13]

https://youtu.be/zwGBTcIHN0U?t=748

 

Russell Brand is now telling people to vote Labour, instead of not voting.

 

Who knows, may make a difference.

 

Sure many of you do not want to watch the whole 13 minutes, the link leads you to the end.

 

So all that time and all that fuss about telling people to not vote was a complete waste of time  Brilliant.

[Spiritwalker]

I'm going to vote for the Jamie Vardy Party.

Is he having one?

[Guest]

80% of the jobs are full time. 2 thirds of those on zero hour contracts(or casual work as it used to be known) are happy with that. 

 

This zero hours nonsense is just bogus to try and make the figures look bad. The facts don't stack up.

 

Zero hours contracts are a crime against workers.

 

UK are the laughing stock of Europe with that regards.

 

Pretending a person is working when they actually aren't is simply dishonest

I know plenty thank you, and I was never talking about the entiretry of the muslim faith.  I was talking about elements of the British Pakistani community.  If you really don't think the issues I raised apply to that community at all then that is your opinion and I respect that.

 

You just come across as a racist bigot. Not that you are - but that's how you come across.

[Guest]

You tell me any job where 2 thirds of the employees are happy.

 

What is a hotel supposed to do when it needs extra staff because there's a wedding on or some sort of function. are they supposed to give people full time jobs behind the bar,waiting or collecting glasses when they only need them for 4 hours 20 or 30 times a year?

 

Banning ZHCs will be a disaster. It's a stupid policy.

 

Not being allowed to work elsewhere whilst you have no hours is reprehensible.

[Webbo]

Zero hours contracts are a crime against workers.

 

UK are the laughing stock of Europe with that regards.

 

 

Would that be the same European countries that have higher unemployment than us? The one's whose citizens are moving over here to find work?

Not being allowed to work elsewhere whilst you have no hours is reprehensible.

That's been stopped, by this govt. Funnily enough Labour didn't stop it considering how much they care about the poor exploited worker.

[MiniFox]

So all that time and all that fuss about telling people to not vote was a complete waste of time  Brilliant.

Surely too late, many who listen to him probably won't have even registered. If anything, it's more him being anti-tory than actually supporting Labour.

[Rincewind]

Privatise everything!

Worship the rich!

Burn the poor!

The  problem is some people  with agree with those things apart from the first.