2015 Election season ..........stuff it in here.

[Guest ttfn]

Russell Brand is now telling people to vote Labour, instead of not voting.

Who knows, may make a difference.

Sure many of you do not want to watch the whole 13 minutes, the link leads you to the end.

Obviously, as they pointed out on Ballot Monkeys this week, anybody who is so devoted to Brand's politics that they are willing to listen to his advice on who to vote for wouldn't be able to because back when voter registration was open he was telling his followers not to vote.

Idiot.

[MiniFox]

Surely too late, many who listen to him probably won't have even registered. If anything, it's more him being anti-tory than actually supporting Labour.

 

 

Obviously, as they pointed out on Ballot Monkeys this week, anybody who is so devoted to Brand's politics that they are willing to listen to his advice on who to vote for wouldn't be able to because back when voter registration was open he was telling his followers not to vote.

Idiot.

Have said that, it just seems too late, although of course some will have registered and will listen, but probably not enough to make a big difference anyway.

[Guest]

Is he having one?

 

That's what I heard. The day we secure survival.

[Guest]

Would that be the same European countries that have higher unemployment than us? The one's whose citizens are moving over here to find work?

That's been stopped, by this govt. Funnily enough Labour didn't stop it considering how much they care about the poor exploited worker.

 

haha.

 

Does that make them wrong then? 

 

The point is you're doing exactly what you attacked someone else for. Using a statistic that suits you. The unemployment figures have been manipulated for years and continue to be a very inaccurate indicator of truth. The zero hour contract means that people not working are counted as unemployed - how stupid is that? And all so that the govt; can claim that unemployment is lower than it actually is and employment higher. You also make me laugh how you bang on about record levels of employment - but I'm sure you really realise the ridiculousness of that statement.

 

And bringing Labour into the argument is pointless too. Labour and conservatives are basically the same party wearing a different badge. both a waste of a vote.

[Guest]

Obviously, as they pointed out on Ballot Monkeys this week, anybody who is so devoted to Brand's politics that they are willing to listen to his advice on who to vote for wouldn't be able to because back when voter registration was open he was telling his followers not to vote.

Idiot.

 

Their are millions (sadly) of people who would change their vote if one celebrity or another declared their preference.

 

It's a sad, sad world.

[BlueSi13]

Zero hours contracts are a crime against workers.

 

UK are the laughing stock of Europe with that regards.

 

Pretending a person is working when they actually aren't is simply dishonest

 

You just come across as a racist bigot. Not that you are - but that's how you come across.

 

Brilliant.  The racist card?  Seriously?  It's becoming a parody now.  Change.

[Rincewind]

haha.

 

Does that make them wrong then? 

 

The point is you're doing exactly what you attacked someone else for. Using a statistic that suits you. The unemployment figures have been manipulated for years and continue to be a very inaccurate indicator of truth. The zero hour contract means that people not working are counted as unemployed - how stupid is that? And all so that the govt; can claim that unemployment is lower than it actually is and employment higher. You also make me laugh how you bang on about record levels of employment - but I'm sure you really realise the ridiculousness of that statement.

 

And bringing Labour into the argument is pointless too. Labour and conservatives are basically the same party wearing a different badge. both a waste of a vote.

Also those sanctioned are neither so a million people have gone missing and they  can be employed or not employed depending on who is doing the stats.

[Parafox]

Public sector workers will get more out of labour than they will out of the tories, and I strongly suspect that heavily influences their voting. Maybe I'm wrong, but their almost constant threats to strike over pay suggests I'm right.

My problem with those public sector workers who will sell their vote, regardless of how well qualified they are, is that they're guilty of putting their own greed ahead of the very obvious funding problems we have, which in the case of the NHS, is only going to get much worse as the population ages. That in itself is fine, but it's their failure to admit their real reasons for voting that way that is so insufferable.

I'm quite happy to admit that I vote Tory because I think they'll do a better job with the economy, which will lead to more money for me and better services for both myself and everyone else.

Why can't public sector labour voters just admit they vote labour because it will more money into their pockets and stop pretending they care about anything else?

 

I will lay my cards on the table, I didn't vote Labour the last time and i don't plan to this time. There are issues with all major parties that I am concerned about for various reasons and I realise the there is no perfect solution with any party. I believe that voters should take things in the round and look at a longer term view as well as a historical one. They should also vote with their consciences which may make them selfish, in your view.

 

Constant threats to strike???? I have never been on strike although my union has members who have for reasons they belive in. I believe in fairness and equality but I do not push for any pay rises until we have the means to pay for it. I do complain and make my voice heard when my income is cut as it was with a 33% increase in contributions to my pension. (I can predict your response to this). I didn't like the pay freeze, but then who would but I have the sense to realise it was for the greater good.

 

Public sector workers have had pay freezes when labour were in power before but you are probably too young to remember this. They are clearly not all money grabbing idle socialists in the same way the Conservative supporters are not all money grabbing selfish and greedy. Some are some aren't, whether blue or red. It's just society.

 

I see your point that the Tory sales pitch is that a better economy makes things potentially better for those who have something in the pot to start with. I cannot agree that society will be fairer for all, however. Welfare cuts, aside from your favourite band of money-grabbers, the idle unemployed, will affect the very vulnerable in our society and I can't countenance that.

[Guest Kopfkino]

I don't know who you mean in particular, but when I post something and it got dismissed as "Emotive claptrap" it makes it harder to understand their views and consider the argument when they haven't actually given reason for what they disagree with.

 

Maybe I'm one of the dismissive individuals to you, but you can see why it's sometimes hard to hold constructive discussion as you say.

I think 'emotive claptrap' was the kind of thing I was referring to

[Guest Bilo]

Sorry but you're happy with the 2% that denied it altogether (if applied today that is 55,732 people)?  You're also happy that 24% had 'no opinion' (668,792)?  and you're also happy that 23% had no knowledge of greatest stain in human history (640,926)?

 

Have you got the breakdown of the wider non-muslim survey?  % of those that denied the holocaust, % with no opinion and % of no knowledge?

 

To deny that there currently is an issue with some of the social attitudes of a significant % of the British muslim populace does nothing to help the situation.  Collectively putting our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is tickety-boo betrays the large number of muslims who do not hold such abhorrent views and whose voices are being drowned out by the hate-filled minority.

 

IMO together we must be stronger as a country in clearly stating what values are unacceptable and what will not be tolerated going forward, imported cultural 'norms' or not.

 

Of course I'm not happy with that. 2% denying it completely is 2% too many, I'd love it to be down to zero.

 

However, let's face facts here. Holocaust denial and racism are not confined to Muslims. The Holocaust wasn't planned, orchestrated and carried out by brown men in turbans and white robes, it was planned, orchestrated and carried out by white men in suits and ties who called themselves Christians. The Holocaust was a European crime and the attitudes that led to it didn't die with Hitler, not even in this country. It was only 20 years ago that Nick Griffin was denying it ever happened and a quick Google of Stormfront will show you white nationalists who certainly don't think it was the greatest stain on our history. 

 

There's a good chance that the number of non-Muslims who don't believe the Holocaust happened would probably hit a similar number to 2%. Acceptable? No. Disingenuous to say its a purely Muslim problem? Yes. That's not burying my head in the sand, it's showing that anti-semitism is something that's still very much alive and kicking and should be tackled regardless of the perpetrators. I for one would have no issue with making Holocaust denial a crime, as it is in Austria, France and Germany, but that's probably a separate issue. 

 

As for those with no opinion or knowledge, that's a failing of education rather than anything else. A survey of teenagers in 2008 found that 20% of them thought Churchill was a fictional character and 58% thought that Sherlock Holmes was real. It's why Humanities subjects must be pushed back to the fore and schools should always ensure the teaching of these should be of high quality, it's better for kids to learn about History and the world around them by being taught objectively by professionals than being fed a piecemeal, or worse, propaganda version of it by unscrupulous individuals.

[Webbo]

haha.

 

Does that make them wrong then? 

 

The point is you're doing exactly what you attacked someone else for. Using a statistic that suits you. The unemployment figures have been manipulated for years and continue to be a very inaccurate indicator of truth. The zero hour contract means that people not working are counted as unemployed - how stupid is that? And all so that the govt; can claim that unemployment is lower than it actually is and employment higher. You also make me laugh how you bang on about record levels of employment - but I'm sure you really realise the ridiculousness of that statement.

 

And bringing Labour into the argument is pointless too. Labour and conservatives are basically the same party wearing a different badge. both a waste of a vote.

There are more people in work now than ever before, that statistic can't be interpreted any other way.

 

Labour didn't do anything when they were in power because it wasn't a problem and it isn't now. Labour predicted mass unemployment and the opposite has happened therefore claiming everyone is on zhc is their excuse. Only 1 job in 50 is a zhc and 2 thirds of them are happy.

 

European nationals are voting with their feet and coming here to find work that tells me that the European establishment might be laughing complacently but the people aren't so amused.

[Guest]

There are more people in work now than ever before, that statistic can't be interpreted any other way.

 

Labour didn't do anything when they were in power because it wasn't a problem and it isn't now. Labour predicted mass unemployment and the opposite has happened therefore claiming everyone is on zhc is their excuse. Only 1 job in 50 is a zhc and 2 thirds of them are happy.

 

European nationals are voting with their feet and coming here to find work that tells me that the European establishment might be laughing complacently but the people aren't so amused.

 

1. There are more people in the world and in the UK than ever before - it's a pointless statistic, it should keep going up - unless the way unemployment figures are revealed changes again.

 

2. You keep comparing Labour and Conservative. Both are wrong.

 

3. European nationals are going to Britain because the low pay in England is far higher than the average pay in their own countries and of course the UK is in an upswing at the moment. I'm sure you're aware that a lot of British nationals also have left the country. Do you know the percentage of European nationals coming to England for high paid jobs?

[BlueSi13]

Of course I'm not happy with that. 2% denying it completely is 2% too many, I'd love it to be down to zero.

 

However, let's face facts here. Holocaust denial and racism are not confined to Muslims. The Holocaust wasn't planned, orchestrated and carried out by brown men in turbans and white robes, it was planned, orchestrated and carried out by white men in suits and ties who called themselves Christians. The Holocaust was a European crime and the attitudes that led to it didn't die with Hitler, not even in this country. It was only 20 years ago that Nick Griffin was denying it ever happened and a quick Google of Stormfront will show you white nationalists who certainly don't think it was the greatest stain on our history. 

 

There's a good chance that the number of non-Muslims who don't believe the Holocaust happened would probably hit a similar number to 2%. Acceptable? No. Disingenuous to say its a purely Muslim problem? Yes. That's not burying my head in the sand, it's showing that anti-semitism is something that's still very much alive and kicking and should be tackled regardless of the perpetrators. I for one would have no issue with making Holocaust denial a crime, as it is in Austria, France and Germany, but that's probably a separate issue. 

 

As for those with no opinion or knowledge, that's a failing of education rather than anything else. A survey of teenagers in 2008 found that 20% of them thought Churchill was a fictional character and 58% thought that Sherlock Holmes was real. It's why Humanities subjects must be pushed back to the fore and schools should always ensure the teaching of these should be of high quality, it's better for kids to learn about History and the world around them by being taught objectively by professionals than being fed a piecemeal, or worse, propaganda version of it by unscrupulous individuals.

 

Apologies, happy was the wrong word.

 

I completely agree with you that some of the issues raised are not unique to muslims (I'm not sure how you thought I was singling them out based on my earlier messages which were in response to Labour appearing to support an event which involved an audience segregated by gender).  But we must be ready to question and criticise instances where our liberal freedoms appear to be fundamentally challenged regardless of those responsible.  

 

Somebody had commented early on in the discussion that this was a 'cultural norm' for that particular community and therefore inferred that we should somehow turn a blind eye and let them get on with it.  That is something I believe to be rather dangerous and I cannot accept that belief.

[Webbo]

 

3. European nationals are going to Britain because the low pay in England is far higher than the average pay in their own countries and of course the UK is in an upswing at the moment. I'm sure you're aware that a lot of British nationals also have left the country. Do you know the percentage of European nationals coming to England for high paid jobs?

So why are they laughing at us?

 

 

My point was that zhc are not a serious problem.

[Guest Bilo]

Apologies, happy was the wrong word.

 

I completely agree with you that some of the issues raised are not unique to muslims (I'm not sure how you thought I was singling them out based on my earlier messages which were in response to Labour appearing to support an event which involved an audience segregated by gender).  But we must be ready to question and criticise instances where our liberal freedoms appear to be fundamentally challenged regardless of those responsible.  

 

Somebody had commented early on in the discussion that this was a 'cultural norm' for that particular community and therefore inferred that we should somehow turn a blind eye and let them get on with it.  That is something I believe to be rather dangerous and I cannot accept that belief.

 

I think it means that we have to be careful about how we challenge it.

 

If we challenge what we see as an unacceptable instance of gender segregation too aggressively, it'll do nothing but breed resentment. We obviously have more of a concept of gender equality than many Middle Eastern and South Asian cultures do, or at least want to see that equality manifested differently, but it'd be a bad idea to go in too hard on this. If the picture of that meeting was an example of this gender segregation by choice, what should have happened? Force men and women to sit together by implementing a seating plan? 

 

There are no simple answers and any cultural integration initiatives ought to be introduced tactfully and gradually rather than by force.

[Guest]

So why are they laughing at us?

 

 

My point was that zhc are not a serious problem.

 

The leading European countries are laughing at Zero hours contracts because it's almost a slave - master relationship. The French for example would rather die than take on that type of contract. When you're speaking about mass influx of europeans I guess you're talking about the eastern european countries and and low pay countries. Those countries laugh even harder because their people go to England earn lots for doing the crappy jobs that the Brits feel above doing and then send/bring the money back to the "poorer" countries and spend it. If only the Brits  got their own "unemployed" willing to do those jobs 100% of the salary would be ploughed back into the British economy.

 

zhc are a problem because they are the equivalent of lord-serf relationships. If they were limited to the long term unemployed and part-time student jobs then I'd be all for them, the fact that they exist for everyone just shows how completely Magaret Thatcher Smashed the power of the unions. Justifying it by saying that Labour didn't change it means nothing. Ever since Tony Blair the Labour party is simply the Conservative party in red. That's why I find so many people fighting over the two quite funny. Do you think the beliefs of Michael Foot or Tony Benn are reflected in this labour party? I've known conservative politicians in the past with more left wing views than the present labour party. Which is why the Liberals have no hope - they can't be the centre party when both the right and left wing parties are centre parties. Brits have no real choice these days - but it does suggest real reasons why crackpots like Farage and UKIP and "anti Britain"parties like the SNP will do comparably so well. 

[Webbo]

 The French for example would rather die than take on that type of contract.

That's why their economy is in the shitter.

 

Also "lord-serf relationship"? seriously? It's plain old fashioned casual work that has been going on for centuries. Some people prefer that kind of job, those that don't can get a different job.

[Guest]

That's why their economy is in the shitter.

 

 

 

If you think that the reason the French economy is in the shitter is because they'd rather die than take a ZHC then you really don't know what you're talking about Webbo, so I'll leave it there. I just hope that the British government do understand otherwise the smiling chez Webbo may be short lived.

 

The decadent West is lucky to have the poor East, but it won't last forever.

[BlueSi13]

I think it means that we have to be careful about how we challenge it.

 

If we challenge what we see as an unacceptable instance of gender segregation too aggressively, it'll do nothing but breed resentment. We obviously have more of a concept of gender equality than many Middle Eastern and South Asian cultures do, or at least want to see that equality manifested differently, but it'd be a bad idea to go in too hard on this. If the picture of that meeting was an example of this gender segregation by choice, what should have happened? Force men and women to sit together by implementing a seating plan? 

 

There are no simple answers and any cultural integration initiatives ought to be introduced tactfully and gradually rather than by force.

 

I agree it's a toughy.  We do not know the facts about the particular event with regards to whether or not the segregation was enforced or if it was done voluntarily.  However the radio silence from Labour about the event suggests to me that it was enforced but it is impossible to know for sure.  

 

Naturally if that was the case then I'd be stunned that Labour would still choose to take part, especially with such a senior panel (Liam Bryne was the 'sorry no money left' official) but if it was voluntary I would have still expected Labour to have forcibly made it clear either during the event or after that they in no way endorse gender segregation.  However what we got instead was Mr Mahmood dismissively saying 'And?' when challenged by a Sunday newspaper.  Not good Labour, not good.

[ronnup]

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/2007552

Deficit lies.

[ronnup]

That's why their economy is in the shitter.

Also "lord-serf relationship"? seriously? It's plain old fashioned casual work that has been going on for centuries. Some people prefer that kind of job, those that don't can get a different job.

It's isn't plain old fashioned casual work. It's the creation of a system that removes any power and rites from the worker.

[ADK]

Either way, it is better than being unemployed and the solution is a stronger economy so employers can't find employees willing to work for peanuts.

[Hirsty The Blue 94]

How many seats realistically do you think the SNP will sweep? Over 49.5 is 4/6 with Betfair and considering the predictions of a potential wipeout surely that is buying cash?

[Strokes]

How many seats realistically do you think the SNP will sweep? Over 49.5 is 4/6 with Betfair and considering the predictions of a potential wipeout surely that is buying cash?

Polls can be very misleading, I wouldn't put too much on it.

[Dr The Singh]

It's isn't plain old fashioned casual work. It's the creation of a system that removes any power and rites from the worker.

Absolutely