2015 Election season ..........stuff it in here.

[Rincewind]

Gotta make sure Rincy's not around, don't trust him, he will try and poach our bitched

Only interested in beer these days. Even Carling doesn't refresh the parts other beers cannot reach.

[Stadt]

Are you an expert on welfare then?

Are you?

[MiniFox]

It's a shame though that some people struggle to hold constructive discussion or even consider the other argument. You don't have to change your mind but there's no need to be so dismissive or 'hardline' as some people are in here.

I don't know who you mean in particular, but when I post something and it got dismissed as "Emotive claptrap" it makes it harder to understand their views and consider the argument when they haven't actually given reason for what they disagree with.

 

Maybe I'm one of the dismissive individuals to you, but you can see why it's sometimes hard to hold constructive discussion as you say.

[MooseBreath]

Probably too many.

It is relevant when you mentioned the recession.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/03/victims-britains-harsh-welfare-sanctions

Sure I posted this link, but anyway:

"We know that David Clapson was actively searching for work when he died because a pile of CVs he had just printed out was found a few metres from his body. The last time he spoke to his sister, a few days before he died, he told her he was waiting to hear back about an application he had made to the supermarket chain Lidl.

But officials at the Jobcentre believed he was not taking his search for work seriously enough, and early last July, they sanctioned him – cutting off his benefit payments entirely, as a punishment for his failure to attend two appointments.

Clapson, 59, who had diabetes, died in his flat in Stevenage on 20 July 2013, from diabetic ketoacidosis (caused by an acute lack of insulin). When Gill Thompson, his younger sister, discovered his body, she found his electricity had been cut off (meaning that the fridge where he kept his insulin was no longer working). There was very little left to eat in the flat – six tea bags, an out-of-date tin of sardines and a can of tomato soup. His pay-as-you-go mobile phone had just 5p credit left on it and he had only £3.44 in his bank account. The autopsy notes reveal that his stomach was empty."

There are more cases, but use this one as an example, someone dies because the job centre didn't believe he was taking it seriously enough. He was sanctioned, as a result, he died.

Furthermore,

"She is at pains to describe her brother as someone who had worked for 29 years, anxious to stress that he should not be seen as "scrounger". He spent five years in the army, two of them serving in Belfast, 16 years working for BT and another eight at other companies before he stopped working to care for their mother who had developed dementia. When she died three years ago, he began to look for a new job and was put on the government's new Work Programme, designed to help unemployed people find a job. He completed two periods of unpaid work experience, for B&Q and for a discount store. He told his sister he had enjoyed these sessions, and had hoped to be allowed to do more. He also completed a forklift truck training course. Although he struggled to use a computer, he had been trying to apply for jobs online. Thompson believes he was taking the process very seriously.

But at some point in May 2013, he missed two appointments with the Work Programme office, and was sent a letter informing him that his benefits would be stopped for a month; the last payment was made on 2 July, according to his sister. Six days later he was down to that last £3.44 (which he was unable to withdraw since it was less than £5). He died a fortnight later."

When you look at a case like that, can you really say it's fair? Was it his fault? Could he have done more? People shouldn't die, whatever the case.

Also, I'm not saying people shouldn't try hard to find a job, if they refuse, then sanctions would be fair in some cases, but to say he wasn't taking it seriously enough, is somewhat unfair don't you think?

It's impossible to comment on cases like this without sounding severely lacking in compassion, that's why I describe it as "emotive claptrap". It's a free hit for the opposition, because either no challenge is made to the story, or a challenge is made and the person making it sounds like a cvnt. In my opinion, using stories like this as a political weapon is a disgrace.

On your point about whether he was taking it seriously. He missed two appointments, didn't respond to a letter, didn't appeal, ask for reconsideration or apply for a hardship payment. He must have ignored a warning from his electricity supplier regarding his power being cut off, and that could have been avoided by simply telling them his situation. It's awful to even feel like I'm criticising the poor guy, but ultimately it was his own refusal to ask for the assistance that was made clearly available to him that caused his death. There's only so much you can do to help people, it's a two way process. Help was there, he didn't take it.

[ADK]

Are you?

 

Depends on the definition of "expert". I probably know more about it than you do. I think it is true that people have died due to the direction welfare has gone partly due to it being misrepresented by the Tories and partly because people are ignorant and prejudiced towards those who use it.

[MiniFox]

It's impossible to comment on cases like this without sounding severely lacking in compassion, that's why I describe it as "emotive claptrap". It's a free hit for the opposition, because either no challenge is made to the story, or a challenge is made and the person making it sounds like a cvnt. In my opinion, using stories like this as a political weapon is a disgrace.

On your point about whether he was taking it seriously. He missed two appointments, didn't respond to a letter, didn't appeal, ask for reconsideration or apply for a hardship payment. He must have ignored a warning from his electricity supplier regarding his power being cut off, and that could have been avoided by simply telling them his situation. It's awful to even feel like I'm criticising the poor guy, but ultimately it was his own refusal to ask for the assistance that was made clearly available to him that caused his death. There's only so much you can do to help people, it's a two way process. Help was there, he didn't take it.

I'd say it's a disgrace a man died because of what seems to be a harsh sanction.

 

I'm afraid I'm not the bad guy in this situation, the tories aren't necessarily either, but it's their sanction system that led to this sort of thing, so what do we do, ignore it so it doesn't look like we're using it as a political weapon? Regardless of the situation, regardless of whether it was labour or the tories it shouldn't happen.  

 

Undoubtedly, if he'd played by the rules, he'd be alive today, but maybe the rules need changing then. 

It is hard to comment on though, if you're against him, you lack compassion, if you're sticking up for him, you're using it as a political weapon. Lose-lose situation.

[BlueSi13]

Actually, the issue with mainly muslim grooming gangs is something I've been outspoken about for some time: there is clearly a problem there, I agree. But your post did imply that it was a widespread 'muslim problem', which I don't accept.

You then compounded the error by attributing regional cultural values (holocaust denial; genital mutilation) to the wider muslim community. If you didn't mean to, fair enough, but you can't blame us for inferring differently, from the language you used.

 

Nope, like I said I was talking about the British Pakistani populace with regards to certain social attitudes that some hold which are incompatible with a liberal democracy that is becoming increasing secular in nature.  I also didn't say that these issues are unique to them.

[Buce]

I don't think anyone on here (that isn't tory) could have an impact on you anyway

Sad to say, but Strokes is probably the closest thing to a compassionate Tory on here.

Truly depressing.

[Buce]

Nope, like I said I was talking about the British Pakistani populace with regards to certain social attitudes.

Then why conflate the issue by bringing up FGM and holocaust denial, neither of which are part of Pakistani culture?

[Guest Bilo]

Well, at least I'll always have some left.

By the way, when I said "greedy for hand outs in some form", I was including public sector workers in that, so don't worry, you're covered.

 

I have no interest in handouts, tax cuts or a payrise. I live quite happily on my salary and own my own home.

 

I leave the pathological self-interest and I'm-alright-Jack attitude to people like yourself.

Ahh yes, there it is, shut down any debate about the social attitudes of certain sections of the British muslim community by chucking in the racism card.  Hilarious. 

 

Who said Britain First were racist?

 

That's your inference, not mine. 

[Webbo]

I'm sure someone can find a stat saying people on benefits die younger. Who's to blame for that? The party who hand out money to sit at home, with no sense of purpose, lying in every morning,getting no exercise or is it the party that wants you to work?

Handing out unlimited amounts of other peoples money to people who refuse to help themselves might make you feel good about yourself but it doesn't help the claimant and the country can't afford it.

It's not compassion it's complacency.

[Strokes]

Sad to say, but Strokes is probably the closest thing to a compassionate Tory on here.

Truly depressing.

AW buce your making me blush

Seriously though, just because I vote conservative doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. I don't. I probably dislike Cameron almost as much some of you but when it comes to awful stories like these, I actually blame the previous system which left them dependant.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been avoided but the previous administration, clearly spoon fed these cases previously.

The lesson to be learnt is, we need to educate people on how to budget and live within the provided means before callously slashing their benefits. We need to make sue they have the tools and services available to look for jobs, and perhaps have job centre agents working closer to communities to avoid missed appointments.

Benefits for job seekers needed to be made fairer, they came so close to being better than a full time job on MW there was real danger of aspirations being eradicated.

[MooseBreath]

I'd say it's a disgrace a man died because of what seems to be a harsh sanction.

I'm afraid I'm not the bad guy in this situation, the tories aren't necessarily either, but it's their sanction system that led to this sort of thing, so what do we do, ignore it so it doesn't look like we're using it as a political weapon? Regardless of the situation, regardless of whether it was labour or the tories it shouldn't happen.

Undoubtedly, if he'd played by the rules, he'd be alive today, but maybe the rules need changing then.

It is hard to comment on though, if you're against him, you lack compassion, if you're sticking up for him, you're using it as a political weapon. Lose-lose situation.

He missed two appointments, failed to respond to a letter, and didn't use any of the procedures he could have to get help. He appears to have been a very proud man, who would rather die than kick up a fuss about needing help. It's an extremely sad story, but I'm not really sure how much more the welfare system could reasonably be expected to have done.

What would have made a difference, is if he found it easier to find work. I think we'd be better off if politicians addressed this issue first because there's no doubt that had he found work this wouldn't have happened.

So what are the reasons he couldn't find work? Competition at the low-skilled end of the job market is quite fierce due to the ongoing uncontrollable flood of low-skilled workers coming in from other countries. We could look at managing immigration better so that it serves our people first.

We could look at how we manage the economy, ensuring that conditions are right to allow businesses to take risks on growing and employing more people. We could look at tax cuts or some other perk for businesses who can show they're contributing to social welfare by providing good numbers of good quality jobs.

We could also look at how we could lift people like him out of the low-skilled market. We could do this by encouraging more adults into education and retraining. We could cultivate a culture where periodic stints of training and education throughout life is the norm instead of education being seen as something that is done once at the start of your life and then never again. This will be particularly important as people's working life duration increases at the same time as change affecting the demand in the labour market occurs ever more rapidly.

All these things for me are far more appropriate reactions than simply throwing more money at the problem, going full ostrich and hoping the roots of these problems just go away by themselves.

[ADK]

I'm sure someone can find a stat saying people on benefits die younger. Who's to blame for that? The party who hand out money to sit at home, with no sense of purpose, lying in every morning,getting no exercise or is it the party that wants you to work?

Handing out unlimited amounts of other peoples money to people who refuse to help themselves might make you feel good about yourself but it doesn't help the claimant and the country can't afford it.

It's not compassion it's complacency.

 

Seriously?

 

(I give Moose a +1 because he's not miles away from a decent post there)

[Strokes]

We could also look at how we could lift people like him out of the low-skilled market. We could do this by encouraging more adults into education and retraining. We could cultivate a culture where periodic stints of training and education throughout life is the norm instead of education being seen as something that is done once at the start of your life and then never again. This will be particularly important as people's working life duration increases at the same time as change affecting the demand in the labour market occurs ever more rapidly.

That is very good point, it could be worked in a similar fashion to tuition fees. I'd quite happily support a system that focused on adult education.

[davieG]

We should give all employers massive tax breaks for taking on apprentices in specific areas of expertise provided they are 'proper ones' not these 1 year jobbies and there should be no age limit. There's no reason why you need to be in your teens to be an apprentice.

 

I actually took on a 52 year old as an apprentice although sadly he let me down badly by fiddling his expenses and i had to sack him but one bad egg wouldn't put me off.

 

Likewise tax breaks for these same employers sponsoring those going to university.

 

 

As for investing in adult training in my experience this is always the first budget that is cut by employers in times of recession and then they wonder why there's a shortage of skills when things pick up.

[ADK]

The only trouble with "adult education" is making sure it really is education and not a pointless series of power point presentations with no real relevance to the adult. Personally I think you learn more by being employed (although it depends on the job and the employer).

 

I would rather remove the minimum wage, increase benefits and have the government do a better job at actually finding work for people without a job.

 

It won't happen unless there is a shift in the public perception of the average benefit user though, too many people think benefits and imagine "Vicky Pollard" or "White Dee" or "Mick Philpott" which doesn't help and I think there are several mechanisms that make people secretly happy to maintain an "underclass".

 

You also have to be realistic with education, no matter how great it would be, you won't get everyone trained up to be a doctor, teacher, engineer, businessman, banker etc. It would be nice for the government to take more of an interest in the skill set of the populace though.

[BlueSi13]

Then why conflate the issue by bringing up FGM and holocaust denial, neither of which are part of Pakistani culture?

 

That's your opinion.  Doesn't take much research to realise that isn't entirely the case.   

[Babylon]

Who thought this was a good idea?

 

[Guest Bilo]

FGM is extremely rare among Pakistanis, there are some African-Arab Muslims who practice it in Pakistan itself, but it's all but unknown among the Muhajirs (Urdu language speakers) and Punjabis who form the majority of the British-Pakistani diaspora. 

 

Holocaust denial is far more common in the Arab world, though there are a growing number of ignorant people of all stripes who do so in the UK - Pakistani Muslims are a small part of this. However, these people tend to disengage from the mainstream political process and would most likely be nowhere near a Labour Party meeting. The only party I've seen where Holocaust denial among British Muslims even approaches prevalence is the Respect Party - basically a vehicle to boost George Galloway's ego and with less than 500 members nationally, and even then it's only on social media pages among some of the rank and file considered to be morons even by many within the party itself.

 

The notion that there's a groundswell of FGM and Holocaust denial by the wider Muslim community is an example of gross exaggeration and scaremongering. It's based on a small, but loud, minority rejected by the majority. You might as well say there's a growth in support for the extreme right and Islamophobia due to the growth of the EDL and Britain First over the past few years, a moment's objective research will tell you that isn't the case.

[BlueSi13]

Who thought this was a good idea?

 

 

[Dr The Singh]

FGM is extremely rare among Pakistanis, there are some African-Arab Muslims who practice it in Pakistan itself, but it's extremely rare among the Muhajirs (Urdu language speakers) and Punjabis who form the majority of the British-Pakistani diaspora. 

 

Holocaust denial is far more common in the Arab world, though there is a growing number of ignorant people of all stripes who do so in the UK - Pakistani Muslims are a small part of this. However, these people tend to disengage from the mainstream political process and would most likely be nowhere near a Labour Party meeting. The only party I've seen where Holocaust denial among British Muslims even approaches prevalence is the Respect Party - basically a vehicle to boost George Galloway's ego and with less than 500 members nationally, and even then it's only on social media pages.

Majority of UK pakistanis arent punjabi's but Mirpuri's.  Only can speak of my experience, Holocaust denial is prevelant within the Pakistani community!!  It is well known that there are publications including the Urdu Weekly in Pakistan that promotes it!!!

[BlueSi13]

So according to the current poll of polls:

 

Conservatives 34%

Labour 33%

UKIP 14%

 

Assuming that UKIP's support comes mainly from disillusioned Conservatives, could they cost David Cameron dearly in this election?  

[Guest Bilo]

Majority of UK pakistanis arent punjabi's but Mirpuri's.  Only can speak of my experience, Holocaust denial is prevelant within the Pakistani community!!  It is well known that there are publications including the Urdu Weekly in Pakistan that promotes it!!!

 

My mistake - misread the figures!

 

How prevalent is it in the UK? I would say that with our education and the fact that it's completely discredited by the academic and political mainstream in this country, that it would be a viewpoint grasped only by the fringes of society. It's obvious that you'll have some ignorant people in all communities, but it seems a bit unlikely that any significant proportion of Pakistanis born, raised and educated here would go in for some of the hysterical Jew hatred that goes on in the Middle East. 

 

I imagine most British Muslims are, understandably, anti-Zionist but that's a huge leap to say there's anything like a community problem with Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism.

 

Holocaust denial is clearly rife in the Arab world and growing in the Muslim world as a whole, but that's largely due to the fact that a lot of these countries are a long way from being what we would recognise as functioning democracies and the people are often under-educated or brought up in a virulently racist atmosphere. 

[Webbo]

Seriously?

 

(I give Moose a +1 because he's not miles away from a decent post there)

I meant to quote you but repped you by mistake.

 

Yes seriously, tell me what I've said that is wrong?