leicsmac Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30401100 Pretty damning. How far does 'the ends justify the means' truly go in this new age? Mind you, I'm pretty sure some of the Senate politicians who wrote this report were also ones who said to the CIA "Do whatever is necessary" in the aftermath of the Sept 11th attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Shameful. Disgusting. Torturing another human being makes you no better than those that you seek to punish. Awaits the "well if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to fear" team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Faintly surprised by the honesty of the report. Quite self critical really. especially for the US. The problem with the ends justifying the means is that you have to be able to show the ends you achieved, which the report says is not the case. Some of this stuff is really grim, and honestly, I don't believe it works, and I don't believe the west should stoop to these levels, especially if we cant show it works. the CIA seem to have moved from a people based intelligence organization to one too reliant on Technology, which then goes to extremes to paper over the cracks in that approach. Shameful. Disgusting. Torturing another human being makes you no better than those that you seek to punish. Awaits the "well if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to fear" team. They can **** off can't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozleicester Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Faintly surprised by the honesty of the report. Quite self critical really. especially for the US. The problem with the ends justifying the means is that you have to be able to show the ends you achieved, which the report says is not the case. Some of this stuff is really grim, and honestly, I don't believe it works, and I don't believe the west should stoop to these levels, especially if we cant show it works. the CIA seem to have moved from a people based intelligence organization to one too reliant on Technology, which then goes to extremes to paper over the cracks in that approach. They can **** off can't they? and die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Still astounds me how many people are surprised at this. It's war, all these treaties and conventions are just there to satisfy men in suits who believe they behave better than others. In terms of actual war crimes its probably quite low down the list, because of the uproar over Guantanamo we probably try and extract information on the spot before a bullet goes in the back of head now instead of taking people as prisoners. Torture is a war weapon and probably always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Who is surprised? There are lots of aspects of war which are unpleasant, this is another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Who is surprised? There are lots of aspects of war which are unpleasant, this is another one. Apologies, for some reason I read the first two posts as surprise. I need a cup of tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 December 2014 Author Share Posted 10 December 2014 Apologies, for some reason I read the first two posts as surprise. I need a cup of tea. The ability of various representatives of humanity to treat each other as things never surprises me anymore. That said, surely you've got to draw the line somewhere? Especially when this report shows that it's actually not much use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 The ability of various representatives of humanity to treat each other as things never surprises me anymore. That said, surely you've got to draw the line somewhere? Especially when this report shows that it's actually not much use? Yeah humans are no better or worse than animals are we? Personally I think war is war so I'm not really bothered if there is a line or not, there is no such thing as civilised behaviour when you are in conflict, torture has and always will be a war weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 December 2014 Author Share Posted 10 December 2014 Yeah humans are no better or worse than animals are we? Personally I think war is war so I'm not really bothered if there is a line or not, there is no such thing as civilised behaviour when you are in conflict, torture has and always will be a war weapon. Yeah, reckon there's some truth in that. War is shit regardless of how much you try to be civilised about it. It makes me cynical about the future to be honest, because if we continue to slavishly subject ourselves to the evolutionary principle and 'human nature' through not thinking and acting as one species we're going to end up exactly like 99% of the species that have ever inhabited the Earth did, either through our own doing or through the Earth (or a bloody great asteroid/gamma ray burst) deciding it's time. I just hope that when that comes we don't take that much of the Earth with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Guiza Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Yeah humans are no better or worse than animals are we? Personally I think war is war so I'm not really bothered if there is a line or not, there is no such thing as civilised behaviour when you are in conflict, torture has and always will be a war weapon. Taking away the moral implications of torture, from what I studied, most information gained from torture is unreliable and often leads to absolutley nothing. Almost anybody will say exactly what the authorities want to hear under torture, regardless of whether it's true. http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/04/2 Interesting article from a few years back about the reliability of torture evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 I just hope that when that comes we don't take that much of the Earth with us. It's a shame as we've become the ones to really appreciate the universe in terms of intelligence and exploration, but it will be a fantastic day for the planet when the last of our lind leaves it. Taking away the moral implications of torture, from what I studied, most information gained from torture is unreliable and often leads to absolutley nothing. Almost anybody will say exactly what the authorities want to hear under torture, regardless of whether it's true. http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2010/nov/04/2 Interesting article from a few years back about the reliability of torture evidence. Often is the key though, sometimes the information gained is clearly valuable. Though I don't doubt a lot of people would say anything under that sort of duress, that said, as Uncle Marcellus once said, we don't want to think they know nothing, we want to know if they know nothing. I'm not saying this sort of thing is acceptable, it isn't to normal people, but we don't employ normal people to try and win wars as they wouldn't be able to do it. I can't read that article at the minute but the Guardian is hardly likely to give a fair and proper reasoned argument for or against the use of torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 I think the main aim of the torture, which wasn't exactly a secret, was to deter would be suicide bombers. You might not be afraid of a quick death but if you thought you were in for weeks/months of torture you might think twice. Whether it worked or not is debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Guiza Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 It's a shame as we've become the ones to really appreciate the universe in terms of intelligence and exploration, but it will be a fantastic day for the planet when the last of our lind leaves it. Often is the key though, sometimes the information gained is clearly valuable. Though I don't doubt a lot of people would say anything under that sort of duress, that said, as Uncle Marcellus once said, we don't want to think they know nothing, we want to know if they know nothing. I'm not saying this sort of thing is acceptable, it isn't to normal people, but we don't employ normal people to try and win wars as they wouldn't be able to do it. I can't read that article at the minute but the Guardian is hardly likely to give a fair and proper reasoned argument for or against the use of torture. It is fairly reasoned, although the guy is a self titled 'humanist'. My thoughts are pretty much summed up in the oppening paragraph of the article itself 'Could I support the use of torture in some contrived situation? Yes, definitely, and it would be irrational to say otherwise. If mutilating John Doe's balls is going to stop a nuclear bomb going off in my favourite London pub then hand me the curling tongs.' But, to allow it to happen legally would be an awful decision. The abuse of power would far override any good, but, as you say, it has and will always happen. Given the choice between that and something like the Charles De Menezes incident, I think everybody would side with torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 December 2014 Author Share Posted 10 December 2014 It's a shame as we've become the ones to really appreciate the universe in terms of intelligence and exploration, but it will be a fantastic day for the planet when the last of our lind leaves it. Which does make me sad, too. There's so much potential for humankind to actually understand and explore the universe...but instead many choose to pursue crude ideologies of whatever kind and try to secure the best deal for themselves and people like them by treating other people as things. The evolutionary principle works out fine up to the point things get too big and everyone dies. I definitely agree that unless we change our ways the Earth won't miss us in the slightest when we check out. I think the main aim of the torture, which wasn't exactly a secret, was to deter would be suicide bombers. You might not be afraid of a quick death but if you thought you were in for weeks/months of torture you might think twice. Whether it worked or not is debatable. That's possible, but I don't really think it's an effective deterrent. In fact it would probably have made those nutters even more determined to make sure they die and take as many people with them as they can rather than be captured. But like you said, it's debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filbert Walker Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 You either fight total war or don't fight at all...... I think we owe it to all future generations to try and get this war finished as quick as possible otherwise it will drag on for decades.... Strong boarders, strong laws and strong response to anyone who wants to do us harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 You either fight total war or don't fight at all...... I think we owe it to all future generations to try and get this war finished as quick as possible otherwise it will drag on for decades.... Strong boarders, strong laws and strong response to anyone who wants to do us harm. Is that someone who puts up boards or someone who shares living space in a building? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 10 December 2014 Author Share Posted 10 December 2014 You either fight total war or don't fight at all...... I think we owe it to all future generations to try and get this war finished as quick as possible otherwise it will drag on for decades.... Strong boarders, strong laws and strong response to anyone who wants to do us harm. There are those in high places who want it to drag on for decades regardless, strong response or not. Wars make money. And of course there is the old chestnut - if you defeat the enemy by becoming them, they win too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 It would appear the Senate investigation didn't actually involve talking to anyone involve. So they basically looked through lots of documents and noted that which fitted the answer they wanted. Winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 I doubt we will really know what went on. We don't really know what went on with the Holocaust. We know the final results. I think it's pretty clear that in the aftermath of 9/11, the CIA was pretty much given free reign and perhaps still largely has free reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr The Singh Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Not condoning it, but other nations do the same and alot worse!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicki Vixen Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 You either fight total war or don't fight at all...... I think we owe it to all future generations to try and get this war finished as quick as possible otherwise it will drag on for decades.... Strong boarders, strong laws and strong response to anyone who wants to do us harm. For as long as Israel exists, the interference of the West in Middle Eastern affairs will not end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 I think the main aim of the torture, which wasn't exactly a secret, was to deter would be suicide bombers. You might not be afraid of a quick death but if you thought you were in for weeks/months of torture you might think twice. Whether it worked or not is debatable. It made me think twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 It made me think twice. Did you go through with the suicide bombing in the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 10 December 2014 Share Posted 10 December 2014 Did you go through with the suicide bombing in the end?I did, tbh I wasn't very good at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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