Beggers Belief - don't give them your money.

[Dr The Singh]

For asking for cash then being told no.

Homeless guy then used c word and got a kick. Naughty homeless man.

I won't be asking you for a beer, I value my good looks!!!!! :xmastongue:

[Merging Cultures]

It's difficult to identify those who are really in need. That's why I give to organisations like The Salvation Army. They have low overheads and a large majority of donated funds goes to those in need, not to admin or 'technical staff'. They have the experience and expertise to ensure that money goes to people who are really in need.

Imagine if you unexpectedly lost your job. Do you have enough savings to pay your mortgage/rent? You might have family who can take you in once the savings run out. Not everyone does, or have people they have a relationship with. That maybe due to their own addictions, or due to abuse they received from family members.

Life is not linear, and not everyone has the same experiences, or opportunities.

[Eddy Kellys Heroes]

chrisspivey.org

[Dr The Singh]

It's difficult to identify those who are really in need. That's why I give to organisations like The Salvation Army. They have low overheads and a large majority of donated funds goes to those in need, not to admin or 'technical staff'. They have the experience and expertise to ensure that money goes to people who are really in need.

Imagine if you unexpectedly lost your job. Do you have enough savings to pay your mortgage/rent? You might have family who can take you in once the savings run out. Not everyone does, or have people they have a relationship with. That maybe due to their own addictions, or due to abuse they received from family members.

Life is not linear, and not everyone has the same experiences, or opportunities.

Invest in langar, 100% hoes to feeding the poor

[MooseBreath]

It's difficult to identify those who are really in need. That's why I give to organisations like The Salvation Army. They have low overheads and a large majority of donated funds goes to those in need, not to admin or 'technical staff'. They have the experience and expertise to ensure that money goes to people who are really in need.

Imagine if you unexpectedly lost your job. Do you have enough savings to pay your mortgage/rent? You might have family who can take you in once the savings run out. Not everyone does, or have people they have a relationship with. That maybe due to their own addictions, or due to abuse they received from family members.

Life is not linear, and not everyone has the same experiences, or opportunities.

I don't know what it's like in Lesotho, but here in the UK, if you've got no job, you get housing benefit to pay for your rent. Everybody does have that opportunity, subject to you being careless with your own savings of course. Approx 5,000,000 people here do it. That's 2.5 times the population of Lesotho, all living off the state. There are a few dozen homeless people.

[Vicki Vixen]

It's difficult to identify those who are really in need. That's why I give to organisations like The Salvation Army. They have low overheads and a large majority of donated funds goes to those in need, not to admin or 'technical staff'.

Have you done a detailed analysis of the Salvation Army's accounts to come to this conclusion? What makes you think they have low overheads compared to other charities?

I used to work for a company that advised charities on their staff pension and benefit plans and it was shocking to see the amount of "donations" that went into funding these promises.

[Rincewind]

There is a difference between someone who is homeless and a tramp A homeless person can be a teenager who has run away from home,having to leave a care home because they have reached the age of 16 but have no experience of caring for themselves, or kicked out by parents or a woman who has left her family home because of domestic violence or somebody kicked out by a landlord because they want to let the place out for a higher rent. Or maybe someone just leaving the forces or been released from prison. you can even be classed as homeless if you are sleeping on a friends settee after a relationship break up but still goes out to to work. It does not take much to want for nothing to being grateful for a little. A person losing their job in their late fifties may not be able to claim benefits if they have more than a certain amount in the bank and the money they do have will soon dwindle away if they have a mortgage and other bills such as Sky TV on a contract and other HP items like a car.. They may be hopeful of finding a new position so think there is no need to change their lifestyle but they will not be the only ones chasing those perfect jobs.  This is the reality of modern life.

[Guest MattP]

It's difficult to identify those who are really in need. That's why I give to organisations like The Salvation Army. They have low overheads and a large majority of donated funds goes to those in need, not to admin or 'technical staff'. They have the experience and expertise to ensure that money goes to people who are really in need.

Imagine if you unexpectedly lost your job. Do you have enough savings to pay your mortgage/rent? You might have family who can take you in once the savings run out. Not everyone does, or have people they have a relationship with. That maybe due to their own addictions, or due to abuse they received from family members.

Life is not linear, and not everyone has the same experiences, or opportunities.

 

Moose has already beaten me too it but as stated the only people who are homeless here are people who have chosen to be homeless, the state will house anyone without a home if they ask to be.

[Merging Cultures]

Have you done a detailed analysis of the Salvation Army's accounts to come to this conclusion? What makes you think they have low overheads compared to other charities?

I used to work for a company that advised charities on their staff pension and benefit plans and it was shocking to see the amount of "donations" that went into funding these promises.

I have. They really do have low overheads. Their staff are not paid very much, and they have a large volunteer sector.

Of course donations go into funding pensions and benefits. They do get grants from governments, but donations are a large portion of their revenues.

In the US there is a website called Charity Navigator, which compares organisations, and all charities have to publish their accounts (Form 990). I'm not sure about the UK if there is an equivalent, but I do look at Charity annual reports. Largely because I work in the 'Charity' sector and have been looking to return to the UK at some point, and I want to know which organisations have a decent revenue base. But UK charities so not pay well. In the US working for a 'non-profit' is a profession and it can pay well. In the UK it's seen as a 'nice thing to do'. But I digress.

[Merging Cultures]

I don't know what it's like in Lesotho, but here in the UK, if you've got no job, you get housing benefit to pay for your rent. Everybody does have that opportunity, subject to you being careless with your own savings of course. Approx 5,000,000 people here do it. That's 2.5 times the population of Lesotho, all living off the state. There are a few dozen homeless people.

Insightful, I never knew the UK had such things, next you'll be telling me there is such a thing a thing as a countrywide healthcare programme. Good job people outside the UK font know about such luxuries as free housing for all, otherwise everyone would move there. What with EU free movement, the UK would be swamped and parts of Europe empty.

Seriously though, housing and housing support is available, but I'm not sure it's instantaneous. In the meantime people might be homeless. There are also long term homeless who might not be able to conform to society.

I worked with a formerly homeless guy once. He was helped by The Salvation Army, they gave him some training and he was able to get the job at a printing factory. He became homeless because he became an alcoholic. Due to his drinking he lost his former job, got divorced, depressed and into drugs. The downward spiral found him on the streets. While that sounds extreme, I can't imagine that it is all that rare. Yes, it was his fault for drinking too much, but alcohol is an addictive drug, and not everyone can handle it.

There are many reasons why people are temporarily or long term homeless. Often it is due to choices they have made, but everyone deserves a chance and to be treated with dignity.

[MooseBreath]

Yes I was really just addressing your point about people who lose their jobs and your point about not everyone having the same opportunities. Certainly in this country anyone who loses their job has the same opportunity to access support services which will keep them from becoming homeless.

People who dive head first into alcoholism or other drug addiction to the point where it has a severe negative impact upon their ability to function as a member of society do also have that opportunity, they're just pranging out too much to take it. Sympathy? A little. Not too much.

People who are mentally ill and therefore unable to access help are worthy of more sympathy. I wonder how many mentally ill people slip through the net though, probably not many, and our attitude to mental illness is improving.

Pretty much everyone else, including all of the people ken mentions, can get themselves fed and a roof over their head immediately at homeless shelters, and access to welfare will be available within days.

[Vacamion]

I don't give money to street beggars (there are numerous reports about the Glasgow beggars operating an organised racket) and I resent being approached by them.

Funny how I never see beggars at their "pitches" first thing in the morning when there are plenty of working folk about.

When (later in the day) you walk past them and give them nowt , you occasionally get a passive aggressive "Oh, thank YOU" or "Well, you have a GREAT Christmas".

It's hardly going to make passers by change their mind, is it?

[Rincewind]

Not everyone claiming housing benefit is out of work. The same as not everyone is earning enough to save. I listed some of the reasons why people may become homeless. Yes some it is self inflicted but certain situations can lead to others. Loss off a loved one being abused as a child can lead to foster home after foster home depression. Depression can lead to drugs. It is not so straight forward just to say they are homeless it is their own fault.

Like MC I know people that have been homeless. One was abused as a child. Eventually he was living in a caravan in the county. He was given a fortnight to leave when the owner evicted him and ended up in a hostel. He was suffering with depression at the time. Now after help from others and doing voluntary work he has regained his confidence and has his own flat.

If you have above 10k in the bank you cannot claim benefits. How long would 15k last if you were out of work for a long period?

I assume you are lucky Moose to have a decent job and house.

I do not know the circumstances of the ones in Glasgow begging. There may be a few that take advantage but homelessness problems will not be solved by ignoring them or as councils in London have done and moved people from one area to another. NIMBY. comes to mind. If you they hide or ignore the problem the authorities  do not have to address them and therefore can say there is no homelessness in their area.

[MooseBreath]

Nothing you've said there gives any good reason for someone living on the streets.

If you've got £15k and can't claim benefits until you've got less than £10k, well then you'll simply have to spend your own money for a couple of months and then claim benefits. Not sure what your point is.

[Nick]

Clearly there is none, which rather makes my point.

But there is a serious point here: Forget, for a moment, your natural antipathy to beggars; imagine that the Leicester Mercury ran a headline, MooseBreath fvcks little boys.

How do you think that might feel? And if further on, to add insult to injury it transpired that the only 'evidence' that they have for this outrageous accusation was anecdotal, I imagine you'd be on to your lawyer quicker than Lloyd Dyer on amphetamines. But by then the damage is done; the kind of people who believe what they read in the papers have already up their minds: MooseBreath fvcks little boys: it's got to be true, it was in the Mercury; and Ian Stringer told an anecdote he'd heard on RL, so that proves it for me.

The fact that the people possibly slandered and misrepresented in this way are not 'desirable' people, shouldn't blind you to the uncomfortable precedent being set.

 

[Biggus]

Slightly related but giving money to charity boxes is also against my principles.

 

A few years ago I spent a day in the Security Office at the Emirates stadium.  One thing made me smile.  The Security folk had to go a remove some people outside of the stadium who they thought were not legitimate charity collectors.  They were a group of Nigerians collecting for the RNLI !

[Rincewind]

Nothing you've said there gives any good reason for someone living on the streets.

If you've got £15k and can't claim benefits until you've got less than £10k, well then you'll simply have to spend your own money for a couple of months and then claim benefits. Not sure what your point is.

Your reply is the one I expected.Almost to the word.

[Rincewind]

Slightly related but giving money to charity boxes is also against my principles.

 

A few years ago I spent a day in the Security Office at the Emirates stadium.  One thing made me smile.  The Security folk had to go a remove some people outside of the stadium who they thought were not legitimate charity collectors.  They were a group of Nigerians collecting for the RNLI !

Those collecting should have badges and paperwork as proof so things have improved and the scams are less frequent. If the boxes are in charity shops then I would assume the money goes to the cause. I did voluntary work in the Heart Foundation shop and sometimes had to approach customers with a box full of badges and stuff. The response was mostly polite even when refusing.

The kings Head has a large bottle which is foe Wishes For Kids. When emptied and donating to said charity a receipt is received and I imagine this happens at other places. I have had Xmas cards in the post which I am not keen as it puts the receiver under pressure to send money off if the cards are kept. Some may be people who cannot afford it. I just kept the cards. It does say you are not under any obligtion to return them and £7.59 for six was too much.

I never give to street collectors either.

[Webbo]

Your reply is the one I expected.Almost to the word.

You should have an answer ready then.

[Guest MattP]

Not everyone claiming housing benefit is out of work. The same as not everyone is earning enough to save. I listed some of the reasons why people may become homeless. Yes some it is self inflicted but certain situations can lead to others. Loss off a loved one being abused as a child can lead to foster home after foster home depression. Depression can lead to drugs. It is not so straight forward just to say they are homeless it is their own fault.

Like MC I know people that have been homeless. One was abused as a child. Eventually he was living in a caravan in the county. He was given a fortnight to leave when the owner evicted him and ended up in a hostel. He was suffering with depression at the time. Now after help from others and doing voluntary work he has regained his confidence and has his own flat.

If you have above 10k in the bank you cannot claim benefits. How long would 15k last if you were out of work for a long period?

None of anything mentioned here would stop someone being housed though if they went to the relevant authorities.

And surely you would just spend your own money until you had less than 15k and then sign on? You wouldn't wait until you had absolutely nothing.

[Vicki Vixen]

I have. They really do have low overheads. Their staff are not paid very much, and they have a large volunteer sector.

Of course donations go into funding pensions and benefits. They do get grants from governments, but donations are a large portion of their revenues.

In the US there is a website called Charity Navigator, which compares organisations, and all charities have to publish their accounts (Form 990). I'm not sure about the UK if there is an equivalent, but I do look at Charity annual reports. Largely because I work in the 'Charity' sector and have been looking to return to the UK at some point, and I want to know which organisations have a decent revenue base. But UK charities so not pay well. In the US working for a 'non-profit' is a profession and it can pay well. In the UK it's seen as a 'nice thing to do'. But I digress.

 

Fair enough

[foxoffderby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUBTAdI7zuY

[Rincewind]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUBTAdI7zuY

what he said at the end confirms what I have said before, there are a lot of good people that are homeless.

 

Saw a poster on a lamppost near the station. Someone has arranged an event at the clock tower tomorrow at noon which involves meeting homeless people to give them some sort of Xmas as in donations.

Something to think about when tucking into your roast turkey sitting in a nice warm room. Nothing wrong with that. You have earned it.

I shall not attend myself but I admire people that give up their time and own Christmas to help out in this sort of event.

 

Re the thread title it Beggars belief that other things are taking place in 2014 Britain that are not always made  known in the public domain. But when the DWP are considering whether to release reports that may not be in the 'public's interest'  I have to ask the question is it in the 'Governments interest' to release figures ahead of a forthcoming election.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/government-benefit-cuts-are-already-being--blamed-for-the-deaths-of-three-vulnerable-people-and-there-may-be-60-more-9942735.html

 

And homelessness related

 

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/care/thousands-of-children-in-temporary-accommodation-this-christmas/7007543.article

[Merging Cultures]

I saw this and thought of you all...

[Leeds Fox]

Those collecting should have badges and paperwork as proof so things have improved and the scams are less frequent. If the boxes are in charity shops then I would assume the money goes to the cause. I did voluntary work in the Heart Foundation shop and sometimes had to approach customers with a box full of badges and stuff. The response was mostly polite even when refusing.

The kings Head has a large bottle which is foe Wishes For Kids. When emptied and donating to said charity a receipt is received and I imagine this happens at other places. I have had Xmas cards in the post which I am not keen as it puts the receiver under pressure to send money off if the cards are kept. Some may be people who cannot afford it. I just kept the cards. It does say you are not under any obligtion to return them and £7.59 for six was too much.

I never give to street collectors either.

You could've just sent them back, even if I didn't want to buy the cards and give money to the charity, I wouldn't go ahead and do the complete opposite!