Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 Technical clean sheet! Foxestalk is the gift that keeps on giving. Can you actually think of an argument against my post though? In 2 of the games he kept a "clean sheet" in, he actually let a goal in that was subsequently disallowed, one of which was perfectly legitimate and should have stood. On neither occasion was he aware the flag was up (in fact against Newcastle this would have been impossible because it went up long after the ball was in). The "clean sheet" element is factually true but it doesn't really tell the whole story about Hamer's performance does it? I'd love to hear what your counter-argument is.
filbertway Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 Can you actually think of an argument against my post though? In 2 of the games he kept a "clean sheet" in, he actually let a goal in that was subsequently disallowed, one of which was perfectly legitimate and should have stood. On neither occasion was he aware the flag was up (in fact against Newcastle this would have been impossible because it went up long after the ball was in). The "clean sheet" element is factually true but it doesn't really tell the whole story about Hamer's performance does it? I'd love to hear what your counter-argument is. For me, a striker is always favourite in a one on one, so for a keeper to concede in that position has no bearing on their match performance. I wouldn't base it on clean sheets anyway, i don't think it's a coincidence that the defence seems generally more organised and less panicky with Hamer in goal. I can't actually argue with your logic, I just wouldn't use it as a basis for rating Hamer. In terms of all round game I think Hamer is a better goalkeeper than Kasper and I hope he keeps it up.
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 For me, a striker is always favourite in a one on one, so for a keeper to concede in that position has no bearing on their match performance. I wouldn't base it on clean sheets anyway, i don't think it's a coincidence that the defence seems generally more organised and less panicky with Hamer in goal. I can't actually argue with your logic, I just wouldn't use it as a basis for rating Hamer. In terms of all round game I think Hamer is a better goalkeeper than Kasper and I hope he keeps it up. Fair comment
Guest Cujek Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 There is no need to drop Hamer, no reason at all!
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 For the record I can see why it would be a bad idea to drop Hamer right now, not because I think he is better than Schwarze but because it would be a pretty big blow to his confidence to be ousted to easily. Last thing we want is a situation like the one with Liverpool's Mignolet who looks like he doesn't want to be on the pitch most of the time.
truebluethroughandthrough Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 Yes, of course nigel will drop Hamer... We go **** knows how long without a win, without a clean sheet and for many without hope. Schmeichel unfortunately gets injured forcing the change. We then go four unbeaten, with 3 clean sheets, only conceding 2 penalties. You're off your nut if you think Nigel will drop Hamer. Even if Kasper was 100 per cent tomorrow, he'd have to bloody wait too. Pearson has and always will pick the in form players he has at his disposal. The solidarity and performance of the defence since Hamer has come in surely can't just be coincidental??? Can it?
Fox92 Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 Read my post again Fox92, I was posing the question: "should Schwarzer be given a run out against Stoke?" I did not say he should be in the starting line-up!! How can he be given a run out if he's not in the starting line up though? I'm not misreading your post, I just don't understand it.
filbertway Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 To be fair, he's just asking what people's opinions are, he's not actually stated that Hamer should be dropped or Schwarzer should be given a run out.
Bayfox Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 4 clean sheets this season. 3 kept by one keeper. think you have your answer.
Narborough_fox Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 "Techincal clean sheet" Heard it all now. Wasn't Hamer's biggest fan when he first came, but he's won me over. Apart from Spurs he hasn't made a single mistake and the defence looks comfortable with him behind them which is always a positive. It's good to have a keeper who is positive off his line as well, something we've not had in a while. Hamer doesn't deserve to be dropped for Schwarzer, especially after not conceding from open play in 4 games.
nickelbyfox Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 Hamer has been very good coming for crosses which I imagine will be a great asset against Crouch/Stoke. But I have to agree I am not completely sold on him yet but he will get another few games so hopefully he builds on what has been a solid start!
Candidcamera Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 Hamer will retain the place when Kasper is fit. He may become no 1 and we will benefit.
David Hankey Posted 12 January 2015 Author Posted 12 January 2015 I wish to apologise, as the originator of this topic, not to have made it simpler for some to understand. I only posed two questions but some have tried to read into someting that wasn't there. Perhaps words of one syllable in future. It seems to me that Logan who has made a paltry 23 appearances since 2001 should not be on the books still and I wonder just what his ambitions are.
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 "Techincal clean sheet" Heard it all now. Wasn't Hamer's biggest fan when he first came, but he's won me over. Apart from Spurs he hasn't made a single mistake and the defence looks comfortable with him behind them which is always a positive. It's good to have a keeper who is positive off his line as well, something we've not had in a while. Hamer doesn't deserve to be dropped for Schwarzer, especially after not conceding from open play in 4 games. You're expressing incredulity but not actually explaining how I am wrong. It is true to say that we kept a clean sheet, but to draw inferences from the clean sheet is something different. On its own it's an uncontroversial claim, but the point is that it keeps being accompanied by something like "and therefore Hamer should stay in" or "and therefore Hamer has been playing well". You can't extrapolate that from the clean sheets; they were down to offside decisions, not Hamer's shot-stopping which hasn't really been put to the test in any of the games. He hardly had a save to make against Villa except for the one he let in that got ruled out, same against Newcastle, and he had nothing but routine saves to make against Hull (they only managed 5 shots on target of their 19 attempts!) Literally don't see how you can argue against this, and if your only point is "but zero is less than more than zero herr derrr" then you need to try harder.
Kitchandro Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 I wish to apologise, as the originator of this topic, not to have made it simpler for some to understand. I only posed two questions but some have tried to read into someting that wasn't there. Perhaps words of one syllable in future. It seems to me that Logan who has made a paltry 23 appearances since 2001 should not be on the books still and I wonder just what his ambitions are. Well, whatever you were getting at, you worded it atrociously.
truebluethroughandthrough Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 I wish to apologise, as the originator of this topic, not to have made it simpler for some to understand. I only posed two questions but some have tried to read into someting that wasn't there. Perhaps words of one syllable in future. It seems to me that Logan who has made a paltry 23 appearances since 2001 should not be on the books still and I wonder just what his ambitions are. Bless ya. You could just not ask dumbass questions under the guise of suggestion. No, shwarzer doesn't deserve a run out against Stoke. Yes Logan is a fat waste of space sponger. Is that better?
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 To be honest he worded it perfectly well and it just demonstrates how eager people are to leap to Hamer's defence even where there's no criticism. Most of you just assumed he was having a go and responded accordingly. That's your fault not the OP's.
Narborough_fox Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 You're expressing incredulity but not actually explaining how I am wrong. It is true to say that we kept a clean sheet, but to draw inferences from the clean sheet is something different. On its own it's an uncontroversial claim, but the point is that it keeps being accompanied by something like "and therefore Hamer should stay in" or "and therefore Hamer has been playing well". You can't extrapolate that from the clean sheets; they were down to offside decisions, not Hamer's shot-stopping which hasn't really been put to the test in any of the games. He hardly had a save to make against Villa except for the one he let in that got ruled out, same against Newcastle, and he had nothing but routine saves to make against Hull (they only managed 5 shots on target of their 19 attempts!) Literally don't see how you can argue against this, and if your only point is "but zero is less than more than zero herr derrr" then you need to try harder. It doesn't matter if there are 3 disallowed goals or none it's still a clean sheet. That's all everyone will see it as after the game, not any of this 'technical clean sheet' you're claiming it to be. I play in goal at Sunday league level, for me a clean sheet is a clean sheet no matter if you have 20 shots to save or 1 shot to save. What's to say that Hamer is having less shots on target due to how well he's organising the defence that he does compared to Schmeichel though? Maybe that's why his defence is also catching players offside leading to the disallowed goals. True that he's had less shots to save but he's still got to stay on his toes during the game, something that people don't realise how it can be when you've not really touched the ball a lot during the game. Take Villa for example, Hamer didn't do anything but at the end of the game he comes and claims a ball which completely takes off the pressure that was building on the defence. When he has had to deal shots on target he's dealt with them well, most notably a big save against Liverpool at the end of the game from Henderson. He's made one mistake, and that may not have happened if the wall had stayed together. You can't ask for any more.
Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 But was it even technically a clean sheet? It's hard to be certain.
Guest MarshallForEngland Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 It doesn't matter if there are 3 disallowed goals or none it's still a clean sheet. That's all everyone will see it as after the game, not any of this 'technical clean sheet' you're claiming it to be. I play in goal at Sunday league level, for me a clean sheet is a clean sheet no matter if you have 20 shots to save or 1 shot to save. What's to say that Hamer is having less shots on target due to how well he's organising the defence that he does compared to Schmeichel though? Maybe that's why his defence is also catching players offside leading to the disallowed goals. True that he's had less shots to save but he's still got to stay on his toes during the game, something that people don't realise how it can be when you've not really touched the ball a lot during the game. Take Villa for example, Hamer didn't do anything but at the end of the game he comes and claims a ball which completely takes off the pressure that was building on the defence. When he has had to deal shots on target he's dealt with them well, most notably a big save against Liverpool at the end of the game from Henderson. He's made one mistake, and that may not have happened if the wall had stayed together. You can't ask for any more. The bit in bold is the point I have been making. Bit strange to have it delivered to me as if I have been arguing the opposite I must admit. You have already acknowledged that "clean sheet" simply means the other team ended the game with "0" next to their name so what is it exactly you are disagreeing with? The number says so little about the goalkeeping performance and you have already acknowledged as much. I am also a goalkeeper and I find the degree of importance you have put on the phrase "clean sheet" quite strange. Imagine a game in which the ball hits your bar and goes in and bounces back out but the officials don't give it even though you know it was in and you were beaten; the ref blows for a stoppage but neither you or the player about to shoot hears the whistle and he smashes it past you from 20 yards; and someone nutmegs you 1 on 1 and rabonas it into the net before being wrongly flagged offside a few seconds later by an indecisive linesmen; are you seriously going to feel proud of your "clean sheet" and be happy to extrapolate the level of performance based on the zero next to the other team's name? In what way is it intellectually honest to use the clean sheet as an example of your own performance? Your team had a clean sheet but it was no thanks to you and taking credit for it is outrageous. What if during the next game you make half a dozen unbelievable saves after being peppered from start to finish and let in one "unstoppable" goal? No clean sheet = poorer performance than the previous game? You already know the answer to this and if you acknowledge that the clean sheet doesn't really tell you much about the game, you have to acknowledge that harping on about Hamer's "clean sheets" is a bit nonsensical because it reveals nothing about his performance. When you actually look at what he has done, not just a number at the end of the match, he has done most things quite averagely and some things poorly. The inability of some people to grasp this simple and obvious fact is quite bewildering.
Narborough_fox Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 The bit in bold is the point I have been making. Bit strange to have it delivered to me as if I have been arguing the opposite I must admit. You have already acknowledged that "clean sheet" simply means the other team ended the game with "0" next to their name so what is it exactly you are disagreeing with? The number says so little about the goalkeeping performance and you have already acknowledged as much. I am also a goalkeeper and I find the degree of importance you have put on the phrase "clean sheet" quite strange. Imagine a game in which the ball hits your bar and goes in and bounces back out but the officials don't give it even though you know it was in and you were beaten; the ref blows for a stoppage but neither you or the player about to shoot hears the whistle and he smashes it past you from 20 yards; and someone nutmegs you 1 on 1 and rabonas it into the net before being wrongly flagged offside a few seconds later by an indecisive linesmen; are you seriously going to feel proud of your "clean sheet" and be happy to extrapolate the level of performance based on the zero next to the other team's name? In what way is it intellectually honest to use the clean sheet as an example of your own performance? Your team had a clean sheet but it was no thanks to you and taking credit for it is outrageous. What if during the next game you make half a dozen unbelievable saves after being peppered from start to finish and let in one "unstoppable" goal? No clean sheet = poorer performance than the previous game? You already know the answer to this and if you acknowledge that the clean sheet doesn't really tell you much about the game, you have to acknowledge that harping on about Hamer's "clean sheets" is a bit nonsensical because it reveals nothing about his performance. When you actually look at what he has done, not just a number at the end of the match, he has done most things quite averagely and some things poorly. The inability of some people to grasp this simple and obvious fact is quite bewildering. I see what you're saying about the argument with the clean sheets but this statement is just absurd. He's looked far more comfortable with crosses than Schmeichel ever has and has a save percentage of 72% compared to Schmeichel's which is 65% so statistically he's doing better than Schmeichel has done so far. To say he's doing things quite averagely or poor is harsh. Especially with his performance against Stoke which won us the game. Yes, his distribution is poor but so is Schmeichel's command of his area. Neither of them are perfect, if they were they wouldn't be here but Hamer has done absolutely nothing that suggests giving a chance to Schwarzer is the correct thing to do.
Kitchandro Posted 12 January 2015 Posted 12 January 2015 To be honest he worded it perfectly well and it just demonstrates how eager people are to leap to Hamer's defence even where there's no criticism. Most of you just assumed he was having a go and responded accordingly. That's your fault not the OP's. He was asking whether Schwarzer should be given a run out. That is a leading question and therefore is suggestive.
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