Claudio Fannieri

That is why I am asking the question and yeah I hope you are right, that is where my head is at, however we do have past history with most if not all our recent academy prospects coming in for a fair bit of criticism and not constructive in any way shape or form, in fact it has and can be pretty negative desperate stuff at times.

It’s a great point that he has already played against Moore however I was just playing devils advocate and asking what our fan reaction would be if selected and we lost and he had a tough game.

So here is the quick sniff test, on Tuesday against Wrexham Marti selects Nelson instead of Faes, Page comes into the 10 and Monga starts instead of Mavididi. Despite controlling and dominating the game Page and Monga struggle in attacking areas to create space and chances against wily experienced EFL defenders and both are hooked at 60 minutes as we are 2-0 down after Keiffer Moore has bullied and outmuscled Nelson twice to score headers, despite throwing the Kitchen sink at Wrexham in the final half hour we lose 2-1. it would be interesting to see if the reaction was give them time etc or whether Marti is lambasted for not bringing on more experienced players earlier on or dropping proven internationals in place of youngsters not yet ready. It really is a fine line and I think it would be more likely the latter. Which if true would demonstrate that as an overall fanbase maybe we too are too guilty in focusing on the immediate here and now rather than the bigger picture.

I agree but if you look at a lot of posts aimed at academy lads it does feel they get the hard end of the stick whilst others are given a far less tougher ride of it at times.

It is if we are planning to sell him but in reality can we afford to lose Faes and Okoli for fees below their book value and cover wages, if we did and say had a £10m PSR hole to cover then we could be forced to sell Nelson or another gem to cover it. I honestly think we want shut of most if not all the really high earners but in a situation where we can cover off PSR liabilities and hopefully generate some profit to allow room to manoeuvre in the market to supplement the nucleus of the academy products we want to build a team around in the next 12 months. I honestly think we need to be patient come 12 months time i think 50% or more of our starting XI and matchday squad will be academy players such as Nelson, Page, Monga, Aluko, Evans, Cartwright and Hutchinson etc

None of my post was calling any individual out so not sure why you took it personally, it was more a general comment as a fanbase and I include myself at times have been overly quick to criticise our own and the evidence of all the players named bears testament to the fact that as a fanbase overall we aren’t that patient or supportive of young academy players once they start making mistakes or going through a tough patch.

Here are my thoughts on it, I think Nelson is absolutely highly rated by the club and Marti and is seen as the future of our defence, however at the moment there are 3 full internationals at the club that are probably for sale at an acceptable price and costing us considerably more in wages than young Ben and the bean counters will be advising that those 3 need to be in the shop window to maximise any potential sale in January to offset risk of any under recovery of book value or the club footing the bill for a proportion of future wages. There is a reason Nelson is travelling with with the squad and it isn’t because he has been outcast I think it’s the absolute opposite. The problem with football and PSR is now it’s not just about matchday and results it’s about financial performance as well, which means decisions made about team selection is not just about the game it’s about protecting asset value as well.

Exactly, nail on head, this is a football club but also a business that has to maximise transfer fees for players and ensure outgoings not only cover book value but also generate some profit otherwise we will be forced to sell academy players we don’t want to lose to generate pure profit. It may be a price we have to pay to see Faes playing to ensure he leaves in January, so that long term Nelson can become a mainstay in the team for years to come. Perhaps the club and Marti have been very clear in their communication with Ben and his representatives as to the situation and his pathway.

Please read my post again and point out the bit where I say or assume if you criticise someone out the academy it means we want the whole academy to fail, what I said is if you have a look at the line of academy players who have come through and had 1st team exposure in recent years we have as a fanbase been overly critical - Chilwell Barnes KDH Hamza Iversen Thomas Stolarcyzk Now given we seem to be pretty passive and accepting of others for their failings which have been much worse than the above it seems strange we are not much more supportive of our ‘own’

Jakub has played 24 games for us, he is still in his very early days as a 1st team player, interestingly in his starts so far in the championship he is averaging 7.3 on footmob so not too shabby at all for a player who has cost absolutely nothing in fees and is probably one of our lower earners. Yes he has weaknesses and will make mistakes but still not sure I would swap him for many other keepers at this level. Give him another 50 games and I think he will be a very very good goalkeeper capable of being more than decent enough at premier league level.

I have edited my original post as I have also now referenced Barnes, Chilwell and KDH. Couldn’t agree more. Personally whilst I want to see us win every game we play, it isn’t the bee all and end all especially if we were blooding our academy prospects, I would take a year of some inconsistent results and performances to support the integration of 6 or 7 genuine talents from the academy into the match day squad. As this would be for the long term benefit of the club. However there are two things at play here, 1 can the club afford to take that chance and 2 would the fanbase support this and be patient accepting we may not get promoted, do we have the patience as a fanbase and reading what I see on social media I ain’t so sure.

This is one from our academy so a bit like Thomas, McAteer etc some of fans do love to continually criticise and blame them and yet there is a massive hankering for more academy prospects to be given playing time and the manager has red flags against his name for not bringing enough into the matchday squad and yet here we are again seeing widespread criticism of yet another academy player once they become a regular starter. Perhaps as a fanbase we could do more to support our academy players as they come through, not sure we can throw pelters at Cifuentes about Nelson and Page etc when it’s highly likely after 3 or 4 games they will be having every error, mistake, goal conceded or chance missed discussed and criticised. We have seen it with Thomas, McAteer, Hamza even Barnes and KDH got it, Chilwell suffered as well and now it’s Jakub’s turn, maybe we don’t have the patience as an overall fanbase to allow our younger academy players to make mistakes, to grow and develop in our 1st team, maybe just maybe as a fanbase our immediate priority of winning matches is creating an environment which is restricting our chances of giving our academy players the best opportunity to shine and grow. Perhaps we are part of the problem …..

But Daka barely does miss chances because he will have already tripped himself up or been tackled. There is some serious revisionism regarding Daka, his link up play is generally nowhere near Ayew, he doesn’t have the tactical nous and awareness of Ayew and in relation to finishing I would back Ayew as the better finisher, the only thing Daka has over him is pace that is all. Look I am not saying Ayew is the answer, the reality is we should have looked to bring in a starting striker. Maybe over time Carranza will be the answer, however based on where we are today, Ayew is the best of the 3 and that cannot be laid at Marti’s door. However what Marti could do is have the 3 playing off Ayew to use their pace and skill to create chaos behind him and to also get beyond him to try and create attacking opportunities from Ayew’s hold up play.

So who does he play, Daka who is absolute muck or Carranza who struggled last night and looks like he needs at least a few more weeks acclimatising before being capable of starting.

I actually think in relation to creating clear cut chances we do agree, however I think the quality of our build up play until we get in and around the penalty box was good in the 1st half we worked the ball around well played with patience when required but also played quickly when the opportunity presented itself, for some reason at the moment as soon as it gets to our front 4 we don’t seem to be able to break down defences to create genuine goalscoring opportunities. Partly this is down to many teams sitting deep with men behind the ball and often doubling up on Fatawu and Mavididi when required.

Make no mistake that attempt by Faes to ‘tackle’ Illing Jr was nothing short of a disgrace. He literally downed tools in that moment, choosing to go ground and pull out of making any attempt to win the ball and that action directly cost us a goal and as it turns out cost us the chance to win the game. I am sure if Marti and the staff when they review the game and that particular incident then I would be surprised if Faes doesn’t end up back on the naughty step, that was a shocker.

Wouldn’t be shocked to see him involved on Tuesday and if he starts it is then up to him to show what he can do and make himself unstoppable

We got into lots of good areas, 1st half both Abdul and Stephy got the ball in good areas but the quality of our final pass and or decision making meant we didn’t capitalise to create a good chance. I actually felt our build up play in the 1st half was as good as it’s been this season so far.

And I think Marti is that type of manager, you can only move on players if someone is prepared to pay the fee our higher ups are expecting and to cover the wage demands of players who may have a higher expectation because of what we have been paying or don’t fancy taking a drop. it wasn’t pretty in the early months when Pearson returned and it took time to shift out the players he knew weren’t right fit for the club, he still played some of them to try and keep things ticking along and generate interest, it seems a very similar situation to now. This is not Marti’s mess so let’s back him, he has made us difficult to beat and got some fight and togetherness, pattens of play are improving but over the next few games hopefully we start to see our attacking play come to the fore. Rome was not built in a day and certainly not after 7 games.

It is a valid point football isn’t just played out on the pitch anymore it’s also a financial element , as @MPH says I am pretty sure there will be a directive that certain players are to be included to protect future transfer value and this will be the same at every club. It’s business just like being told by a boss to do something you don’t necessarily agree with but accept as part and parcel of business strategy and politics. Nelson and Page are both included in the matchday travelling party so suggests they are well regarded and Marti is keeping them included but I do think there is a directive to keep some of the big earners in the shop window in the hope of attracting decent offers in January.

You have actually highlighted the bit where I said we got in good areas then lacked quality in end product and decision making and then said it was a half truth and said the same thing in your own words 😳

Was only 45 minutes but was way off it, struggled to get into the game, doesn’t seem to have a stand out attribute, spent more time trying to win fouls and having a spat with Mepham. Only thing he was going to do last night was get sent off. Didn’t offer much to suggest he should be starting.

Our patterns of play were good in the first half, we beat their press a lot and got in some decent positions however our final end product lacked quality or was a poor decision. 1st half was our most cohesive performance in possession so far this season, however we failed to capitalise by creating or taking enough chances, however 2nd half we looked disjointed and the subs actually made us worse and less cohesive. I see people saying Soumare was awful, he wasn’t he played well, I think Bouba has been a signing that has just not worked out and would question whether his style is suited to the cut and thrust of the game in England but last night he played well, he worked hard out of possession made tackles and recoveries and on the ball seemed to carry it more and be more progressive in his passing. Ayew continually gets slated and yes he has limitations but it’s as clear as day currently he is head and shoulders above Daka and Carranza on last nights showing. We are currently 3rd in the league and had lots of upheaval in the summer, it is far from perfect and there is a lot of room for improvement but for fans to be calling the manager out and saying lots of red flags, is a lot of bed wetting and over reaction. Faes carries a large weight of blame, first 10 minutes we were well on top and dominating the game and then he decided to throw in a ‘tackle’ that you would see at U5/U6 level and they take the lead, that goal changed the whole context of the game, they could sit back and defend, deny our attacking players space, break up play with niggly fouls, they set up in the same way Preston did. What we did see at least is a Foxes Never Quit attitude and we somehow managed to salvage a draw. As I have said it’s far from perfect under Cifuentes and yes he has got some things wrong, I would like to see Aluko, Page and Nelson all at least on the bench but I don’t see these lads day in day out he does.

First half aside from the complete and utter brain fart from Faes we looked the most cohesive and fluent we had all season, but the goal gave West Brom the chance to sit in and deny us any space, it’s the first time I felt Marti didn’t have a structured plan to get us back into the game, 2nd half we looked disjoined and a bit desperate but somehow we got out of jail with a point. Yes we have issues particularly going forward but for people too be calling for him to be sacked is bed wetting of the highest order.

Stolarcyzk Riccy P Nelson Vesty Thomas Winks JJ Fatawu Mavididi Monga Ayew subs Begovic Aluko Gray Hamza Soumare BDCR Evans Page Carranza/Daka