Looks like we are aiming for top 3 then lads!

[ramboacdc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34324794?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_match_of_the_day&ns_source=facebook&ns_linkname=sport

 

English clubs may lose fourth Champions League spot

The Premier League is in danger of losing a fourth Champions League spot in the 2017-18 season if poor European performances continue this season.

English teams have not reached the Champions League quarter-finals intwo of the past three seasons.

New co-efficient rankings,  calculated over a five-year period, show England are third, behind Spain and Germany.

Italy are fourth, four points behind England. The top three ranked countries receive four Champions League places.

Performances in both Uefa competitions - Champions League and Europa League - are taken into consideration for the rankings with more points awarded in the elite competition (see tables at bottom of this page).

Points are awarded for qualifying for the group stages and then for each knockout round negotiated.

Four English teams have qualified for the group stages of this season's Champions League, against just two from Italy, thus earning more bonus points.

However, if last season's results were repeated - Juventus reached the Champions League final with Napoli and Fiorentina reaching the Europa league semi-finals - then Italy would jump ahead of England.

There are two English teams in the Europa League and three from Italy.

The 2017-18 season will be the first where the 2010-11 season drops out of the reckoning.

That season saw Manchester United reach the Champions League final, where they were beaten by Barcelona at Wembley, while Tottenham and Chelsea made the quarter-finals.

How the points are calculated

Champions League

First qualifying round elimination - 0.5 points

Second qualifying round elimination - 1 point

Group stage participation - 4 points

Group stage win - 2 points

Group stage draw - 1 point

Round of 16 participation - 4 points

Clubs are awarded an additional point if they reach the round of 16, quarter-finals, semi-finals or final.

Europa League

First qualifying round elimination - 0.25 points

Second qualifying round elimination - 0.5 points

Third qualifying round elimination - 1 point

Play-off elimination - 1.5 points

Group stage win - 2 points

Group stage draw - 1 point

Clubs are guaranteed a minimum of two points if they reach the group stage and are awarded an additional point if they get to the quarter-finals, semi-finals or final.

Current Uefa coefficient standings  

2011-12

2012-13

2013-14

2014-15

2015-16

Total

Spain

20.857

17.714

23.000

14.642

4.642

86.427

Germany

15.250

17.928

14.714

13.857

4.428

68.177

England

15.250

16.428

16.785

12.857

3.625

65.659

Italy

11.357

14.416

14.166

19.000

2.666

61.605

English teams in the Champions League

The last English team to reach the Champions League final was Chelsea in 2012

 

[Wymsey]

Are we still the best league in the world?

[purpleronnie]

Are we still the best league in the world?

Guess it depends on what you define as best.

[Wymsey]

In terms of overall player quality in the league (i.e. good value for money on transfers made by clubs).

[The Doctor]

So, basically by clubs like West Ham and Southampton not taking the europa league seriously (because you can't buy solid gold toilet seats with prestige) we're in danger of the europe spots being properly closed off to just the top 4 plus liverpool and tottenham. Good work chaps.

[AyewJoking]

Better I think, 

 

One of the big teams (Arsenal/Liverpool/Spurs/Man Utd) will no longer have a 4th place cash boost to aim for every season.

[AKCJ]

I think losing a 4th spot would be very harsh and I don't think it will happen. Too many people support the Premier league.

[Dan]

In terms of overall player quality in the league (i.e. good value for money on transfers made by clubs).

 

Not a chance. Spain's a mile ahead of literally everyone, Germany included.

 

Bundesliga's a funny one. Their sides have taken some absolute hammerings from ours in recent years even if they do tend to go further.

Italy's back on the way up I think.

[Dan]

I think losing a 4th spot would be very harsh and I don't think it will happen. Too many people support the Premier league.

 

How would it be harsh? English sides have been woefully below the standard they could be in Europe for a while now. Last year (and this year so far) have been nothing short of laughable. Literally the level of performance you'd expect from leagues like Ukraine.

[AKCJ]

How would it be harsh? English sides have been woefully below the standard they could be in Europe for a while now. Last year (and this year so far) have been nothing short of laughable. Literally the level of performance you'd expect from leagues like Ukraine.

Where is the extra spot going to? Nobody is missing out because a side like Man United or Arsenal qualifying 4th in the Premier League.

If Germany or Spain only had 3 spots then it'd be deserving for them to get it. But there isn't a team that would do better than our top 4 but don't have the opportunity to show it.

The Premier League gets a lot of unfair stick. I'd hate to see an England side miss out because there isn't a team that would do better at this moment in time.

[Dan]

Where is the extra spot going to? Nobody is missing out because a side like Man United or Arsenal qualifying 4th in the Premier League.

If Germany or Spain only had 3 spots then it'd be deserving for them to get it. But there isn't a team that would do better than our top 4 but don't have the opportunity to show it.

The Premier League gets a lot of unfair stick. I'd hate to see an England side miss out because there isn't a team that would do better at this moment in time.

 

I can only assume you read none of the OP. Italy are 4th and would take our fourth spot.

 

I don't know how you can say it would be unfair. Look at how clubs have actually performed in the last five years. Chelsea are pretty much flying the flag single-handedly for England with a Champions League win, a Europa League win and a Champions League semi final. Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool & Spurs have all been embarrassing. Take Chelsea out of that and we'd probably be below Portugal.

[RonnieTodger]

In terms of overall player quality in the league (i.e. good value for money on transfers made by clubs).

 

If you went off that then the Premier League is the worst. 

[AKCJ]

I can only assume you read none of the OP. Italy are 4th and would take our fourth spot.

I don't know how you can say it would be unfair. Look at how clubs have actually performed in the last five years. Chelsea are pretty much flying the flag single-handedly for England with a Champions League win, a Europa League win and a Champions League semi final. Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool & Spurs have all been embarrassing. Take Chelsea out of that and we'd probably be below Portugal.

I did read the article and I don't see how someone like Fiorentina would do better.

The Serie A is an inferior league to ours. Slag the Premier League off because it's cool to all you like but it's true.

It's irrelevant either way because it won't happen. Too much money and interest would be lost.

[Dan]

I did read the article and I don't see how someone like Fiorentina would do better.

The Serie A is an inferior league to ours. Slag the Premier League off because it's cool to all you like but it's true.

It's irrelevant either way because it won't happen. Too much money and interest would be lost.

 

Yeah, but it's got nothing to do with how 'cool' it is. I'm saying what I see, being as unbiased towards anyone as I can. The results are pretty clear. Spain are a mile ahead of everyone, Germany, England and Italy are all at a similar level but England's disappointing performances will see us drop if we aren't careful.

 

You don't think Fiorentina if given five attempts would get to the last eight? Arsenal haven't done it, Man City haven't done it, Man Utd did it once (getting past Real Sociedad, Bayer Leverkusen and some minnow, was it Otelul Galati or someone like that?, Olympiakos before crashing out to Bayern), Liverpool haven't done it. This is the same Fiorentina who beat Spurs over two legs last season. I'm not claiming they're some brilliant side but just look at our clubs' actual records in the last five years.

 

There's a system in place which England, if they keep performing like this, will eventually lose out on. Like the money and interest even matters in comparison. Opinion doesn't matter in the system.

[AKCJ]

Yeah, but it's got nothing to do with how 'cool' it is. I'm seeing what I say, being as unbiased towards anyone as I can. The results are pretty clear. Spain are a mile ahead of everyone, Germany, England and Italy are all at a similar level but England's disappointing performances will see us drop if we aren't careful.

 

You don't think Fiorentina if given five attempts would get to the last eight? Arsenal haven't done it, Man City haven't done it, Man Utd did it once (getting past Real Sociedad, Bayer Leverkusen and some minnow, was it Otelul Galati or someone like that?, Olympiakos before crashing out to Bayern), Liverpool haven't done it. This is the same Fiorentina who beat Spurs over two legs last season. I'm not claiming they're some brilliant side but just look at our clubs' actual records in the last five years.

 

There's a system in place which England, if they keep performing like this, will eventually lose out on. Like the money and interest even matters in comparison. Opinion doesn't matter in the system.

 

 

No, I absolutely don't think that Fiorentina would get to the last 8 without fluking it like United did.

 

It's nothing to do with whether we're doing well enough when there isn't a side that absolutely would do better.

 

Spain and Germany are ahead. England a some way off in 3rd followed by probably the likes of Italy, France and possibly Portugal.

 

 

Lets not forget that the English sides have been dealt some horrific draws in recent times.

 

 

To say that money and interest doesn't matter is a bit ignorant. The system is there to keep interest and money high.

[Dan]

Where does 'money and interest' come into an equation that is defined by how far a club gets in Europe?

[AKCJ]

Where does 'money and interest' come into an equation that is defined by how far a club gets in Europe?

 

It doesn't (somewhat). But that's not the question.

 

The decision will be made about what makes the most impact to the interest and money that's invovled in the competition.

 

The Champions League, ultimately, is a money spinner. You gain more money with a few hundred million United or Arsenal supporters watching the games than you do with relatively little support from other teams abroad.

 

Even then, I don't see why England should be losing out to Italy. What have the Italians (bar Juve) done in recent years to earn it?

[RonnieTodger]

It doesn't (somewhat). But that's not the question.

 

The decision will be made about what makes the most impact to the interest and money that's invovled in the competition.

 

The Champions League, ultimately, is a money spinner. You gain more money with a few hundred million United or Arsenal supporters watching the games than you do with relatively little support from other teams abroad.

 

Even then, I don't see why England should be losing out to Italy. What have the Italians (bar Juve) done in recent years to earn it?

 

Not that much but they've been better than England on the whole.

 

Take the Europa League into account - Chelsea aside, when do our teams do better than the quarter finals? UEFA won't change the system to suit England as soon as we drop below Italy in the league rankings. 

[AKCJ]

Not that much but they've been better than England on the whole.

 

Take the Europa League into account - Chelsea aside, when do our teams do better than the quarter finals? UEFA won't change the system to suit England as soon as we drop below Italy in the league rankings. 

 

Have they though?

 

UEFA will change the system when it suits them. Currently it suits them to have English sides that play in the most popular league in the world. The minute that changes then expect to see the changes made.

[Dan]

It doesn't (somewhat). But that's not the question.

 

The decision will be made about what makes the most impact to the interest and money that's invovled in the competition.

 

The Champions League, ultimately, is a money spinner. You gain more money with a few hundred million United or Arsenal supporters watching the games than you do with relatively little support from other teams abroad.

 

Even then, I don't see why England should be losing out to Italy. What have the Italians (bar Juve) done in recent years to earn it?

 

I can see what you're getting at, but who is to say that a lot of these Americans, Asians etc... don't start 'supporting' Juventus over Man Utd?

 

The Premier League is different in the sense that is far more viewed than any other league in the world, but the current system as it stands will see English teams slip below Italian ones if we keep performing like crap. Italian sides haven't been remarkable by any stretch but we've been dodgy for years now. You can thank Chelsea's runs and dare I say it, Man City's win at Roma last season. That result could've changed things as soon as this season.

 

I do agree it would be UEFA-ish to change the format to suit England simply because we are the money spinners, rightly or wrongly. Our teams aren't necessarily better though.

[lestajigs]

Are we still the best league in the world?

Without a doubt, the best entertainment! Quality? No

[AKCJ]

I can see what you're getting at, but who is to say that a lot of these Americans, Asians etc... don't start 'supporting' Juventus over Man Utd?

 

The Premier League is different in the sense that is far more viewed than any other league in the world, but the current system as it stands will see English teams slip below Italian ones if we keep performing like crap. Italian sides haven't been remarkable by any stretch but we've been dodgy for years now. You can thank Chelsea's runs and dare I say it, Man City's win at Roma last season. That result could've changed things as soon as this season.

 

I do agree it would be UEFA-ish to change the format to suit England simply because we are the money spinners, rightly or wrongly. Our teams aren't necessarily better though.

 

 

Man United and Arsenal (assuming they'd be the 3rd and 4th place teams) have a worldwide support estimated to be around the 800m mark.

 

To see a truly significant sway in those amounts you'd need to wait about 10 years IMO. But you're comparing them to Juventus whereas you should be looking at the sides like Fiorentina, Napoli and Lazio who are nowhere near the English sides they'd be replacing in terms of stature.

 

But even then, I think the Champions League has more quality with your Arsenals and Man Uniteds than with the Italian sides mentioned.

[Captain...]

Man United and Arsenal (assuming they'd be the 3rd and 4th place teams) have a worldwide support estimated to be around the 800m mark.

To see a truly significant sway in those amounts you'd need to wait about 10 years IMO. But you're comparing them to Juventus whereas you should be looking at the sides like Fiorentina, Napoli and Lazio who are nowhere near the English sides they'd be replacing in terms of stature.

But even then, I think the Champions League has more quality with your Arsenals and Man Uniteds than with the Italian sides mentioned.

So let's keep the status quo, why should any club other than they established yet massively underperforming elite be threatened? Why should the Italian league be rewarded for its success in Europe? Oh yeah because it is a sport not a fvcking business, the rules were laid out at the start and you can't just move the goal posts because it will benefit an unfashionable club/league over the premier league, nor can you do it for financial reasons. If serie A earns an extra champions league spot who the fvck are you or anyone else to say they shouldn't have it?

To repeat myself this is a sport and as such you reward sporting achievement not financial clout or popularity.

[AKCJ]

So let's keep the status quo, why should any club other than they established yet massively underperforming elite be threatened? Why should the Italian league be rewarded for its success in Europe? Oh yeah because it is a sport not a fvcking business, the rules were laid out at the start and you can't just move the goal posts because it will benefit an unfashionable club/league over the premier league, nor can you do it for financial reasons. If serie A earns an extra champions league spot who the fvck are you or anyone else to say they shouldn't have it?

To repeat myself this is a sport and as such you reward sporting achievement not financial clout or popularity.

 

 

Eh?

 

Like I said, the Serie A hasn't done enough to earn a 4th Champions League spot and even if it's touch and go between the 4th England spot vs the 4th Italian spot there is going to be a certain amount of "what suits us?" when the Champions League big wigs decide what is best for their competition going forward.

 

I've not said that is morally right but it's certainly what is likely to happen so wind your neck in.

[Dan]

Well it clearly will have done if they have an OK year this year and English sides keep performing to a level like the Turkish league.