The Politics Thread

[Thracian]

More job losses in the steel industry.

 

More job losses in the steel industry.

 

And your point is what given that job losses in various industries like oil, gas, steel are always vulnerable to, or boosted by, market situations? Why not convey the real picture which shows that we're presently employing more people than ever? After all the BBC would never say anything positive about the Government if they could help it.   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10604117

[Frank to be]

Losing good skilled jobs in the steel industry and replacing them with minimum wage, zero hours contracts and or barely profitable self employment isn't much to shout about really.

[The Doctor]

And your point is what given that job losses in various industries like oil, gas, steel are always vulnerable to, or boosted by, market situations? Why not convey the real picture which shows that we're presently employing more people than ever? After all the BBC would never say anything positive about the Government if they could help it.   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10604117

No we aren't. The lowest rate of unemployment is still 3.4% in 1973/1974.

[Dr The Singh]

What I want to know, where is Corbyn, where are the Corbynites. Why isn't CORBYN asking the government to do something that's happening all the time in an ex british colony. The guy is asking for Britian to intervene in a case where people have been on trial and judged, where this case, people who pose no threat are just being shot and killed. Like every other politician, Crobyn is a fake and does what is in his interests

https://www.change.org/p/bbc-bbc-report-on-indian-govt-opening-fire-on-peaceful-sikh-rally-after-media-blackout-order?recruiter=404428904#petition-letter

Still waiting Corbynites, or you admit he is fake like every other politician?

[Guest]

Who's to blame for that do you think?

 

A comment which really shows a lack of understanding of regional economics.

 

One would have thought that UK governments understood that the death of a major industry in the north  is not the same as a loss of jobs in London and they would have a pre-meditated plan for these communities. The loss of so many jobs has a knock on effect to the smaller business in the area, both the direct jobs like sandwich shops, newsagents and less direct due to the loss of general income.  

 

Still we can put billions into banker's pockets maybe the govt. will actually set up new creative industries in the area using the tax payers money and keeping the locals working instead of using tax payers money for unemployment benefit. New small nationalised companies - come on Osborne, think outside the box.

[MooseBreath]

A comment which really shows a lack of understanding of regional economics.

One would have thought that UK governments understood that the death of a major industry in the north is not the same as a loss of jobs in London and they would have a pre-meditated plan for these communities. The loss of so many jobs has a knock on effect to the smaller business in the area, both the direct jobs like sandwich shops, newsagents and less direct due to the loss of general income.

Still we can put billions into banker's pockets maybe the govt. will actually set up new creative industries in the area using the tax payers money and keeping the locals working instead of using tax payers money for unemployment benefit. New small nationalised companies - come on Osborne, think outside the box.

I was merely asking who ken thought was to blame for the job losses. I wasn't implying anything. Maybe you could answer the question? Who is to blame for the decline of the steel industry in the UK?

[SMX11]

I see our and the EU's green policy is working a treat for manufacturing jobs.

Can the government please return to some sanity and stop making it unaffordable for any form of energy intensive industry to thrive.

[Guest]

I was merely asking who ken thought was to blame for the job losses. I wasn't implying anything. Maybe you could answer the question? Who is to blame for the decline of the steel industry in the UK?

 

The governments of the UK of course. Policy decisions make chinese steel cheaper, British steel more expensive. Furthermore the govt. bases these decisions on an outdated form of value not taking into account hidden costs like unemployment, regional depression, social costs, job availability, housing costs etc...

 

Maybe you think the workers are to blame - you know those people who get off their arses to work for their income!

[MooseBreath]

The governments of the UK of course. Policy decisions make chinese steel cheaper, British steel more expensive. Furthermore the govt. bases these decisions on an outdated form of value not taking into account hidden costs like unemployment, regional depression, social costs, job availability, housing costs etc...

Maybe you think the workers are to blame - you know those people who get off their arses to work for their income!

Considerably lower wages make Chinese steel cheaper. Steel is a global market. The only policy decision our government could make that could affect our ability to compete with Chinese steel manufacturers to any meaningful level would be a significant loosening of employment rights and health and safety to the effect of drastically lowering the cost of labour with its associated human suffering. Not something I'd usually expect you to be openly in favour of.

[leicsmac]

I see our and the EU's green policy is working a treat for manufacturing jobs.

Can the government please return to some sanity and stop making it unaffordable for any form of energy intensive industry to thrive.

 

Economics mean nothing to a planet that finds it difficult or impossible to support human life. Amazing how many people don't think on that.

 

If we're going to go energy intensive, it's got to be in a way that doesn't fvck things up for the future.

 

 

Considerably lower wages make Chinese steel cheaper. Steel is a global market. The only policy decision our government could make that could affect our ability to compete with Chinese steel manufacturers to any meaningful level would be a significant loosening of employment rights and health and safety to the effect of drastically lowering the cost of labour with its associated human suffering. Not something I'd usually expect you to be openly in favour of.

 

I actually agree with this. China has a billion expendable worker drones (at least in the view of their own government, which sadly is all that matters for now) and so in the manufacturing industry they can always undercut us. High tech and custom engineering is the way to go, though of course that doesn't solve the unemployment problem regarding unskilled (or semiskilled) labour.

[Guest]

Considerably lower wages make Chinese steel cheaper. Steel is a global market. The only policy decision our government could make that could affect our ability to compete with Chinese steel manufacturers to any meaningful level would be a significant loosening of employment rights and health and safety to the effect of drastically lowering the cost of labour with its associated human suffering. Not something I'd usually expect you to be openly in favour of.

 

No it's not.

 

And you probably noticed, but ignored, that I put governments - the mistakes were made by previous governments and exacerbated over the years by other governments.

 

You also ignored my comment about the hidden costs. Subsidies (preferably for a nationalised industry) would be offset by the ultimate costs of unemployment and weakened purchasing power. 

[Guest]

Economics mean nothing to a planet that finds it difficult or impossible to support human life. Amazing how many people don't think on that.

 

If we're going to go energy intensive, it's got to be in a way that doesn't fvck things up for the future.

 

 

 

I actually agree with this. China has a billion expendable worker drones (at least in the view of their own government, which sadly is all that matters for now) and so in the manufacturing industry they can always undercut us. High tech and custom engineering is the way to go, though of course that doesn't solve the unemployment problem regarding unskilled (or semiskilled) labour.

 

so protect your industry. invest in it, tax foreign imports - on the basis of human rights and minimum wage for all I care, use quotas and most of all re-train and re-direct your own workforce. The oil and car industries have been impeding progress on efficient green alternatives for decades. We could have made ourselves world leaders in clean industries by investing in the R&D necessary and training skilled workers to further it.

[MooseBreath]

No it's not.

And you probably noticed, but ignored, that I put governments - the mistakes were made by previous governments and exacerbated over the years by other governments.

You also ignored my comment about the hidden costs. Subsidies (preferably for a nationalised industry) would be offset by the ultimate costs of unemployment and weakened purchasing power.

The Chinese subsidise their steel industry more than we do already. As an industry it's more important to them than ours is to us. We could subsidise more and more and more but eventually you are actually better off just paying for the unemployment and retraining people towards higher skilled jobs (mid-career retraining being something I'd like to see our government lead the way in as we move towards an era of ever more rapid change).

[Guest]

The Chinese subsidise their steel industry more than we do already. As an industry it's more important to them than ours is to us. We could subsidise more and more and more but eventually you are actually better off just paying for the unemployment and retraining people towards higher skilled jobs (mid-career retraining being something I'd like to see our government lead the way in as we move towards an era of ever more rapid change).

 

Another typical Moose comment. Just seizing on one part of a solution and ignore the rest. Did you miss the bit where I said to Tax the chinese imports. Tax the hell out of them if you want  and then use that money to do some good for the UK citizens. Better than reducing education and health budgets in real terms.

[MooseBreath]

so protect your industry. invest in it, tax foreign imports - on the basis of human rights and minimum wage for all I care, use quotas and most of all re-train and re-direct your own workforce. The oil and car industries have been impeding progress on efficient green alternatives for decades. We could have made ourselves world leaders in clean industries by investing in the R&D necessary and training skilled workers to further it.

You'd tax foreign imports and make every steel based project considerably more expensive, reducing the commercial viability of everything from an office block to a power station to a rail track, reducing investment and costing more jobs? Not a good plan.

We are actually world leaders in some forms of clean energy, particularly tidal based and off shore wind, and we're pretty hot on solar for such a grey country. You don't seem to have been paying much attention to what has been going on in our industries over the last few years.

[Guest]

You'd tax foreign imports and make every steel based project considerably more expensive, reducing the commercial viability of everything from an office block to a power station to a rail track, reducing investment and costing more jobs? Not a good plan.

We are actually world leaders in some forms of clean energy, particularly tidal based and off shore wind, and we're pretty hot on solar for such a grey country. You don't seem to have been paying much attention to what has been going on in our industries over the last few years.

 

As I said I'd subsidise the UK industry with those taxes, so "steel" based projects wouldn't be considerably more expensive but maybe they'd bemore realistically priced - as you state the chinese are unrealistically pricing Steel. If that means Steel is too expensive then it's time to move onto other materials. You need to think outside your box. Humanity have a great skill of inventing newer and better when they have to. My solution would NOT reduce investment  it would either increase it or move it into alternate areas and therefore maintain or create jobs (you see how easy it is to argue along your lines) 

 

Being the world leaders in tidal based energy should be a given for an island based powerhouse. Maybe you've not been paying much attention but Tidal based energy is so underfunded it's unbelievable, it's also in an infancy that is laughable. Do you know how much of our energy tidal based accounts for? Didn't think so.

 

http://www.renewableuk.com/en/news/press-releases.cfm/2015-02-25-report-calls-for-new-approach-to-funding-for-uk-s-wave-tidal-energy-sector 

 

http://waterbriefing.org/home/technology-focus/item/11037-innovate-uk-awards-%C2%A3770k-funding-for-tidal-energy-projects-in-canada

 

http://www.meygen.com/2014/08/uk-leads-marine-energy-revolution-as-worlds-largest-tidal-stream-project-agrees-investment-to-begin-construction-in-scotland/

 

Alittle reading for you Moose before you come back about our Tidal based energy prowess. I can send more if you need them.

[SMX11]

Protectionism just hurts consumers, you need to allow a climate in which local production can become viable through cheaper energy, less regulation and recognising that reducing CO2 through efficiency is a better option than exporting jobs to China, India etc.

[leicsmac]

Protectionism just hurts consumers, you need to allow a climate in which local production can become viable through cheaper energy, less regulation and recognising that reducing CO2 through efficiency is a better option than exporting jobs to China, India etc.

 

I agree with your angle on protectionism, but companies have shown time and time again that they can't be trusted to take an option that is more environmentally friendly when an energy or fiscally cheaper path is available, so regulation is a necessity.

 

Companies don't reduce CO2 output when its more profitable for them to not do so.

[MooseBreath]

As I said I'd subsidise the UK industry with those taxes, so "steel" based projects wouldn't be considerably more expensive but maybe they'd bemore realistically priced - as you state the chinese are unrealistically pricing Steel. If that means Steel is too expensive then it's time to move onto other materials. You need to think outside your box. Humanity have a great skill of inventing newer and better when they have to. My solution would NOT reduce investment it would either increase it or move it into alternate areas and therefore maintain or create jobs (you see how easy it is to argue along your lines)

Being the world leaders in tidal based energy should be a given for an island based powerhouse. Maybe you've not been paying much attention but Tidal based energy is so underfunded it's unbelievable, it's also in an infancy that is laughable. Do you know how much of our energy tidal based accounts for? Didn't think so.

http://www.renewableuk.com/en/news/press-releases.cfm/2015-02-25-report-calls-for-new-approach-to-funding-for-uk-s-wave-tidal-energy-sector

http://waterbriefing.org/home/technology-focus/item/11037-innovate-uk-awards-%C2%A3770k-funding-for-tidal-energy-projects-in-canada

http://www.meygen.com/2014/08/uk-leads-marine-energy-revolution-as-worlds-largest-tidal-stream-project-agrees-investment-to-begin-construction-in-scotland/

Alittle reading for you Moose before you come back about our Tidal based energy prowess. I can send more if you need them.

So you'd tax foreign steel imports and then use those taxes to make British produced steel cheaper? Then domestically we'd use British steel because it would be cheaper, and nobody would be buying any foreign imports so there would be no tax take to use for the subsidy.

Use other materials? Fine. Like what? Can you build a power station out of wood? Plastic rail tracks? I'm all for material based innovation, really, but you've got to be realistic. We need infrastructure now, we can't afford to wait around until someone somehow invents something better than steel.

You're right, tidal power is an emerging industry. I've actually been disappointed by the lack of commitment to it by the government, but can understand when I look at the strike prices being talked about. The proposed tidal lagoon in Swansea is going to produce the most expensive electricity in the world if it goes ahead. I can see the logic in holding back a bit from that commitment given the potential of solar and fracking to produce considerably cheaper energy. And let's not forget the somewhat questionable basis of our commitment to 'clean' energy in the first place.

[Guest MattP]

I cannot beat the story of Matt's revelation that he met a Councillor  in a news agent. I would not recognize any Councillor tbh. He was lucky to meet someone that he agreed with.and happy to have a go at the opposition.Similar to this thread.

I am done with politics;

 

You're done with politics because I spoke to my local councillor in a newsagent?

 

Whose fault is that if you don't recognise your own councillor? Our one is quite well known, drink in the locals and always turns up to the community events, you won't find many people around here who don't know who is it, maybe it's different elsewhere. I also know what his political party is as they put that next to the name when you vote for them.

 

Given how caring and political you are Ken I'm suprised you don't make more time to contact your local MP or councillor, you would be surprised with how much interest they take. Of course it's much easier to sit on the sidelines having never tried shouting about how they don't really care about the opinion of "the average man on the street".

 

I bet you don't even bother to go out and vote.

 

Still waiting Corbynites, where is your self righteous shit now?????

 

Corbyn won't have any interest in that cause, not fashionable enough with the bourgeois bohemians in North London, they need to wrap themselves in Palestinian or Irish flags before they get shot to attract him.

[Guest]

Protectionism just hurts consumers, you need to allow a climate in which local production can become viable through cheaper energy, less regulation and recognising that reducing CO2 through efficiency is a better option than exporting jobs to China, India etc.

 

It does. But that protectionism can also help keep people working in the UK and therefore spending in the UK etc... It also depends on what form of protectionism you use - there are a myriad of policies that can be described as protectionism - Airbus (and Boeing) has benefitted from protectionism and they have become a great sucess for both consumers and the country as a whole. 

[Guest MattP]

The very best of Caroline Lucas.

 

[Guest]

I agree with your angle on protectionism, but companies have shown time and time again that they can't be trusted to take an option that is more environmentally friendly when an energy or fiscally cheaper path is available, so regulation is a necessity.

 

Companies don't reduce CO2 output when its more profitable for them to not do so.

 

Private companies are mostly about short term gain. They certainly don't care too much about "green issues" unless they affect their own bottom line and the don't GAF about the wider implications on community and nation.

[Guest]

So you'd tax foreign steel imports and then use those taxes to make British produced steel cheaper? Then domestically we'd use British steel because it would be cheaper, and nobody would be buying any foreign imports so there would be no tax take to use for the subsidy.

Use other materials? Fine. Like what? Can you build a power station out of wood? Plastic rail tracks? I'm all for material based innovation, really, but you've got to be realistic. We need infrastructure now, we can't afford to wait around until someone somehow invents something better than steel.

You're right, tidal power is an emerging industry. I've actually been disappointed by the lack of commitment to it by the government, but can understand when I look at the strike prices being talked about. The proposed tidal lagoon in Swansea is going to produce the most expensive electricity in the world if it goes ahead. I can see the logic in holding back a bit from that commitment given the potential of solar and fracking to produce considerably cheaper energy. And let's not forget the somewhat questionable basis of our commitment to 'clean' energy in the first place.

Other materials - like what? Well at the moment there are FRP's, Basalt composites, Bamboo, even coconut fibres! but the real question is what are you going to use when Steel is an impossibility. We need to invest far more in innovative R&D and should have been for some time. It's not that we don't know about finite substances.

 

Tidal power is a fantastic idea - we have unlimited availability at every hour of the day around our country but the investment and enticement to work on it hasn't been there. It's very feasible it just needs to become more efficient. Look at the computing industry - we can know store more information on the end of a pin head than we could store in an entire building when I was born. Humanity can do the same with anything given the correct conditions. Tidal power needs that push and we could see no need for protectionism of the steel industry etc... simply because our power source can become so cheap.

[Rincewind]

Interesting. And this is from a Tory. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html Dated 18th October 2015

 

This was called a lie and not happening.

 

http://www.welfareweekly.com/un-investigates-grave-and-systematic-uk-human-rights-violations-call-for-evidence/