Guest MattP Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Can anyone who does believe in a peaceful solution to ISIS actually offer up where they would start? Pacifism sometimes just looks like a cop out excuse to anyone scared of making a tough decision.
leicsmac Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Can anyone who does believe in a peaceful solution to ISIS actually offer up where they would start? Pacifism sometimes just looks like a cop out excuse to anyone scared of making a tough decision. The end objective for humanity as a whole should be pacifism as the alternative will result in our extinction somewhere down the road. That being said, in the ME and elsewhere humanity hasn't overcome their tribal past nearly enough for that to be a reality yet - as this current conflict rather neatly proves. It's a cycle of violence with no solution that isn't going to result in a great many dead and a low probability of success anyway. I honestly don't think anyone rational thinks that ISIS can be negotiated with right now, but the fallout from going in and giving them the boot is no picnic either. I don't envy the people having to make these decisions as there is no real good one to make.
Guest Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 I don't envy the people having to make these decisions as there is no real good one to make. And most western leaders are democratic pacifists (in general) they are not really equipped to make the necessary decisions. Wartime leaders are not good peacetime leaders and vice versa.
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 If there is no alternative why don't we just push the Armageddon button and give up. I am not saying peace will be easy. People were saying it was impossible to talk to the IRA but there were some believed it was attainable and negotiated a deal. There are two choices. Carry on as we are shrugging our shoulders and saying no chance of dealing with these people or try. If you do not try you will always fail. I actually think war is a cop out rather than the other way round. That was shown with Iraq. It appears I am on my own here so I will leave you all to it.
Guest MattP Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 So again Ken, where do you start with negotiations with ISIS? Also I don't remember anyone saying you couldn't talk to the IRA, British governments were doing, that's become a lazy cliché.
purpleronnie Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 So again Ken, where do you start with negotiations with ISIS? Also I don't remember anyone saying you couldn't talk to the IRA, British governments were doing, that's become a lazy cliché. Call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and we hit if fast with a major - and I mean major - leaflet campaign, and while they are reeling from that we'd follow up with some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts.
bovril Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and we hit if fast with a major - and I mean major - leaflet campaign, and while they are reeling from that we'd follow up with some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts. Live 8 style concert would be awesome. Maybe even hold in Raqqa. I'd be happy to donate for Bono's plane ticket.
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and we hit if fast with a major - and I mean major - leaflet campaign, and while they are reeling from that we'd follow up with some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts. Nah Matt is right. Let's give in and bomb the shit out of everyone we do not like. I never said I had the answer . I wish I did. I would be famous. I am just not prepared to accept that taking the easy way out is the best way for all.
Buce Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and we hit if fast with a major - and I mean major - leaflet campaign, and while they are reeling from that we'd follow up with some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts. Ok, Rimmer. Polymorph?
Nick Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 How on earth is any sort of diplomatic solution going to work with ISIS? It's a good question, I have read some thoughts on the matter, this article is not extensive but it does give a sort of six step conceptual framework: http://fpif.org/six-steps-short-war-beat-isis/
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Whilst growing up my mum spoke some wise words. 'There is no such word as can't'
bovril Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Whilst growing up my mum spoke some wise words. 'There is no such word as can't' Was she talking about global jihad?
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 It's a good question, I have read some thoughts on the matter, this article is not extensive but it does give a sort of six step conceptual framework: http://fpif.org/six-steps-short-war-beat-isis/ And a start is better than going backwards or standing still. Some good points there and somewhat relates to my way of thinking.
The Doctor Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Nah Matt is right. Let's give in and bomb the shit out of everyone we do not like. C'mon ken, it's nowhere near that simple. Obviously avoiding war would be preferable, but for a diplomatic solution to be reached we need to be able to negotiate, and you can't negotiate with ISIS; there's nothing we can offer to them that they'd accept, nor is there a compromise they'd be willing to accept.
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 C'mon ken, it's nowhere near that simple. Obviously avoiding war would be preferable, but for a diplomatic solution to be reached we need to be able to negotiate, and you can't negotiate with ISIS; there's nothing we can offer to them that they'd accept, nor is there a compromise they'd be willing to accept. You may be right. I know it is not that simple. This is an extract from the link Swan Lesta posted. You can’t destroy an ideology—or even an organization—through bombing (look at the efforts to do so with Al Qaeda: lots of members killed in Afghanistan, but the organization took root in a bunch of other countries). They will still be there after bombing. If they cannot be negotiated with and I agree it seems that way ATM then other ways need to be found to hurt them. There needs to be a better and cleverer way to defeat them.
purpleronnie Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 You may be right. I know it is not that simple. This is an extract from the link Swan Lesta posted. You can’t destroy an ideology—or even an organization—through bombing (look at the efforts to do so with Al Qaeda: lots of members killed in Afghanistan, but the organization took root in a bunch of other countries). They will still be there after bombing. If they cannot be negotiated with and I agree it seems that way ATM then other ways need to be found to hurt them. There needs to be a better and cleverer way to defeat them. Nice google quoting Ken.
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Nice google quoting Ken. The middle part is the quote. The rest is all my own work.
MooseBreath Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 This is true enough, but we'll never leave the Middle East alone - not until we can overcome our foolish reliance on oil as an energy source. More electric vehicles, more fracking, job done. Leave ISIS to implode would be my view. Just ignore them and they'll soon turn on each other.
Guest Bilo Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 Corbyn defeated at Labour conference over Trident - one of his most controversial policies is evidently not as popular as his supporters thought.
Webbo Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 More electric vehicles, more fracking, job done. Leave ISIS to implode would be my view. Just ignore them and they'll soon turn on each other. After they've raped and murdered thousands.
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 https://www.facebook.com/330250343871/videos/10153677737818872/
RedSoxUK Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 The diplomatic solution Cameron talks about, is the same as Kerry et al with the States talk about - a solution to the warfare problem, Putin's put troops and arms on the side of Assad, and NATO has put arms on the side of the rebels against Assad - all while both fighting with ISIS seperately. Their diplomatic solution is uniting Putin/Assad with the NATO countries - against ISIS. - The only answer to diplomacy with the Syrian government is to have Putin act as advisor/aid to the NATO, help, but at the same time support. I imagine Assad will agree to step down eventually on a time-frame from his dictatoriship, with NATO / Putin attempting to rebuild the releationship between the Syrian people, and the Syrian government. ISIS is an entirely different entity to this, they're not just Syrian militants fighting against Assad, that's just an additional consequence thanks to the Arab Spring's effect on the region. These are militant, religious extremists with acess to Western weaponary after the west royally ****ed up in Libya. - We talk of an answer or diplomacy? There is no diplomacy with extremists and terrorists, you think the world leaders are going to sit around a table with proclaimed leaders of ISIS? Not a single chance. The diplomatic answer is restoring the region to the people, eradicating and removing the extremest forces. The only way this is going to work is if NATO agree to work in unison with the Assad government with the help of Putin and Russian forces; reversing our pre-supprt of the Syrian rebels, to turn around and unite against ISIS by promoting and ensuring the rebels, and the people that the Assad government will change after.
MooseBreath Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 After they've raped and murdered thousands. There comes a time when you've got to let them do what they're going to do. The West has been involved over there for decades and hasn't stopped the rape or the murder. We won't stop it this time either. We should just let it play out this time unless or until there is any chance of a threat towards us.
Rincewind Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 This seems to have slipped by the mainstream media while other 'more interesting and amusing' stories pre-occuprd the public's attention. https://speye.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/upper-tribunal-says-all-bedroom-tax-decisions-unlawfully-determined/
Buce Posted 27 September 2015 Posted 27 September 2015 This seems to have slipped by the mainstream media while other 'more interesting and amusing' stories pre-occuprd the public's attention. https://speye.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/upper-tribunal-says-all-bedroom-tax-decisions-unlawfully-determined/ Thanks for posting that, Rince. I can't think why it's been overlooked by the mainstream media - anyone would think they have an agenda..
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