Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

29 minutes ago, toddybad said:

"They will be hit harder than us" 

Don’t worry, we can always borrow our way out of it.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Don’t worry, we can always borrow our way out of it.

We already are borrowing to deal with the impact of brexit yet you're fine with that but complain about labour.

Edited 30 November 2017 by Guest

[Buce]

58 minutes ago, toddybad said:

"They will be hit harder than us" 

 

I take it you haven’t had the pleasure of DT before?

[Strokes]

23 minutes ago, toddybad said:

We already are borrowing to deal with the impact of brexit yet you're fine with that but complain about labour.

National debt doesn’t matter though, we can just keep borrowing and plug the gap right?

[Strokes]

25 minutes ago, toddybad said:

We already are borrowing to deal with the impact of brexit yet you're fine with that but complain about labour.

Oh and I’m not fine with borrowing to pay for brexit, I’d send the bill to Mexico.

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

Go straight to WTO and just gut the traders, hedge fund managers, buy to let landlords and anyone else who hasn't worked for their money. GDP would be ****ed but who cares when those scumbags feel it and people who work are protected as much as possible.

[Strokes]

15 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Go straight to WTO and just gut the traders, hedge fund managers, buy to let landlords and anyone else who hasn't worked for their money. GDP would be ****ed but who cares when those scumbags feel it and people who work are protected as much as possible.

Better that than this flaccid brexit being served up.

[Guest MattP]

11 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Go straight to WTO and just gut the traders, hedge fund managers, buy to let landlords and anyone else who hasn't worked for their money. GDP would be ****ed but who cares when those scumbags feel it and people who work are protected as much as possible.

Does that include wiping out the welfare bill?

Edited 1 December 2017 by MattP

[Guest Foxin_mad]

14 hours ago, toddybad said:

As pretty much the only right winger on here who is also a remainer, do you think the impact assessments should be made public if we are in danger of a no deal? Tbh that should have been made public before the bloody vote imo.

They should be made public and they should have been made public to better inform people of the merits/disadvantages, absolutely.

 

It is our constitution as the oldest democracy in the world, allowing such things to go on as hiding key information sets a very dangerous precedent IMO.

[Buce]

29 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

They should be made public and they should have been made public to better inform people of the merits/disadvantages, absolutely.

 

It is our constitution as the oldest democracy in the world, allowing such things to go on as hiding key information sets a very dangerous precedent IMO.

 

Says who?

[Realist Guy In The Room]

 

 

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Says who?

My history may be a little scetchy but pretty sure democracy was first a utilised system in ancient Greece.

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Says who?

All of us, we had a vote and decided it.

[Guest MattP]

UK Manufacturing at a four year high, confounding experts' opinion.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-manufacturing-latest-update-november-best-month-2013-city-london-purchasing-managers-index-a8086306.html

[Fox Ulike]

19 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

Pretty much I agree. Both sides ran an absolutely catastrophic campaign filed with very little substance.

 

This is why I think we just need to wait and see what happens. I am not going to get all party political but apart from the Lib Dems there was not one party with a clear vision on Brexit, Single Market and Customs Union. There position remains not to leave but they are still polling terribly.  They always set out their position fairly clearly but it seems the electorate would rather fall for the lies of the 2 main parties for whatever reason.

 

Remain was all about the doom and gloom of leaving  instead of the good impact the EU have and leave used some rather questionable claims. The EU of course played its part, It could have agree to Cameron's pretty lame inconsequential requests, he could have claimed a victory which would have looked much better for the electorate.

 

Is that actually true though? I can't remember to be honest. Seems to only have been mentioned since the referendum result though...

 

It is always quite difficult to argue why we shouldn't make a big change. Like trying to convince somebody not to jump off a cliff into the Ocean.  You can't really try and convince them how great and exciting it is to not do something.

[Carl the Llama]

There was definitely a bit of doom and gloom from the leave side but I find it astonishing that anybody would make that claim with a straight face as though the leave argument didn't consist almost entirely of "RUN TURKEY'S COMING" "RUN ANGELA MERKEL'S COMING" "RUN THE IMMIGRANTS ARE COMING" and so on and so forth.

[Carl the Llama]

Oh and of course "RUN THEY'RE DECIMATING THE NHS which is propped up by vast numbers of immigrant workers"

[Fox Ulike]

5 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

There was definitely a bit of doom and gloom from the leave side but I find it astonishing that anybody would make that claim with a straight face as though the leave argument didn't consist almost entirely of "RUN TURKEY'S COMING" "RUN ANGELA MERKEL'S COMING" "RUN THE IMMIGRANTS ARE COMING" and so on and so forth.

Yeah and let’s not forget the classics

 

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

There was definitely a bit of doom and gloom from the leave side but I find it astonishing that anybody would make that claim with a straight face as though the leave argument didn't consist almost entirely of "RUN TURKEY'S COMING" "RUN ANGELA MERKEL'S COMING" "RUN THE IMMIGRANTS ARE COMING" and so on and so forth.

Only if you spent the whole referendum campaign reading the Guardian letters page view of Brexiteers.

 

Vast majority of leave voters I met were listening to people like Michael Gove, Kate Hoey, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dan Hannan. Even those who were anti-immigration seemed to want to talk about the role of the ECJ rather than look at Farage on the Thames or in front of a poster. The leave campaign was simply more far reaching and more positive than remain which basically boiled down to "vote remain or you are screwed".

[Fox Ulike]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

Only if you spent the whole referendum campaign reading the Guardian letters page view of Brexiteers.

 

Vast majority of leave voters I met were listening to people like Michael Gove, Kate Hoey, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dan Hannan. Even those who were anti-immigration seemed to want to talk about the role of the ECJ rather than look at Farage on the Thames or in front of a poster. The leave campaign was simply more far reaching and more positive than remain which basically boiled down to "vote remain or you are screwed".

 

Far reaching and positive you say??

 

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Oh and of course "RUN THEY'RE DECIMATING THE NHS which is propped up by vast numbers of immigrant workers"

Is there any evidence of this? It's said a lot but is it factual? I'm sure I read once over 90% of NHS staff were British.

 

All the staff I've met over the last few years have been local except one Portuguese nurse.

[Fox Ulike]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Only if you spent the whole referendum campaign reading the Guardian letters page view of Brexiteers.

 

Vast majority of leave voters I met were listening to people like Michael Gove, Kate Hoey, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dan Hannan. Even those who were anti-immigration seemed to want to talk about the role of the ECJ rather than look at Farage on the Thames or in front of a poster. The leave campaign was simply more far reaching and more positive than remain which basically boiled down to "vote remain or you are screwed".

What about this one. Would you say this one was "far reaching" or "positive". Or both?

 

[Fox Ulike]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is there any evidence of this? It's said a lot but is it factual? I'm sure I read once over 90% of NHS staff were British.

 

All the staff I've met over the last few years have been local except one Portuguese nurse.

 

Yup. Seems like that one is a bit of a red herring. However, perhaps they make up a disproportionate number of the lower paid jobs within the NHS?

 

https://secondreading.parliament.uk/social-policy/one-nhs-many-nationalities-where-are-nhs-staff-from/

 

[Carl the Llama]

15 minutes ago, MattP said:

Only if you spent the whole referendum campaign reading the Guardian letters page view of Brexiteers.

 

Vast majority of leave voters I met were listening to people like Michael Gove, Kate Hoey, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dan Hannan. Even those who were anti-immigration seemed to want to talk about the role of the ECJ rather than look at Farage on the Thames or in front of a poster. The leave campaign was simply more far reaching and more positive than remain which basically boiled down to "vote remain or you are screwed".

The point is that any claim of moral superiority on the fearmongering front is entirely incongruous with the reality of the time.  Leavers liked to lambast project fear while simultaneously spreading lies of their own about how the EU's going to cripple the UK.  Obviously it was a successful tactic but let's not rewrite history because we won.

 

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

Is there any evidence of this? It's said a lot but is it factual? I'm sure I read once over 90% of NHS staff were British.

 

All the staff I've met over the last few years have been local except one Portuguese nurse.

Iirc the govt figures say EU migrants account for something like 10% of doctors and I think it was 5-9% of nurses.  Add in the non-EU migrants and I fail to see how your >90% figure can be true.

Edited 1 December 2017 by Carl the Llama
Found some figures. Includes Fox's image from above: http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783

[Fox Ulike]

3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

The point is that any claim of moral superiority on the fearmongering front is entirely incongruous with the reality of the time.  Leavers liked to lambast project fear while simultaneously spreading lies of their own about how the EU's going to cripple the UK.  Obviously it was a successful tactic but let's not rewrite history.

 

Iirc the govt figures say EU migrants account for something like 10% of doctors and I think it was 5-9% of nurses.  Add in the non-EU migrants and I fail to see how your >90% figure can be true.

Exactly this, could not have put it better myself.

 

The only positive of the Leave campaign was the money that we were going to save and be able to send to the NHS. I forget what happened to that money? Could somebody remind me?

 

The fear was around being swamped by migrants from Turkey, and the fantasy was around "freedom".

 

Vote Leave: Falsehoods, Fear and Fantasy.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

15 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

The point is that any claim of moral superiority on the fearmongering front is entirely incongruous with the reality of the time.  Leavers liked to lambast project fear while simultaneously spreading lies of their own about how the EU's going to cripple the UK.  Obviously it was a successful tactic but let's not rewrite history because we won.

I think Project Fear is attached to Remain now, even if it wasn't the truth we won the propaganda war. We went for hope, a Britain that connects with the World. Part of the problem with predicting absolute disaster is you'll still look daft even if only some of it comes to fruition.

 

If Brexit is only a little bit detrimental for the nation now people will probably be OK because of the catastrophe predicted by remain, that's the price you pay, if you predict these things you have to win. (that goes for us as well when we talk about Labour in 2022)