Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Rogstanley]

20 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Why is this argument even taking place?

 

Lets be honest here.  The policies of today are designed to keep momey away from the poorest in society so those in the middle upwards stay comfortable and continue to cash generate.

 

If you’re in that block of middle up (as I am), dont pretend that you dont know this is the case and certainly dont pretend that you give a shit.

 

I vote Tory because I know they look after me and people in similar position to me.

 

I dont want poor people all of a sudden earning £15 per hour and sitting at the table next to me at a restaurant.  I want them earning £7.50, serving me my latte making me feel superior.

 

Not sure why so many people have an issue admitting that and try and mask it with economic argument.

Fair play to you for admitting your motivations. I don't share your desire to keep poor people poor, but i definitely vote on behalf of my own interests. That's why as a middle upwards income earner, I can't vote for the current government. Because in reality they haven't looked after the top 50%, they've looked after the top 0.05% at most. Middle to moderate-high income workers have actually been the hardest hit by this government. They aren't looking after you at all.

[Innovindil]

On the topic of if you're happy and you know it work harder. Just read the study from Warwick University and it says unhappy workers are 10% less productive. Okay, cool, let's make them happy. They're going to want a payrise of course so we offer them an extra quid an hour, cool, your cost of 10 workers just went up £10/hr. The study then shows that a payrise may not be enough to keep these workers happy, so you organise a motivational speaker for the workplace to cheer these poor souls up. Still not enough, so you organise a bouncy castle outside to get them proper motivated. Yes, we've now cracked it! All of my 10 workers are now each 10% more productive! 

 

Or, in the real world, you can just hire an 11th worker on £7.50 and save yourself a few quid. 

[Buce]

25 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Why is this argument even taking place?

 

Lets be honest here.  The policies of today are designed to keep momey away from the poorest in society so those in the middle upwards stay comfortable and continue to cash generate.

 

If you’re in that block of middle up (as I am), dont pretend that you dont know this is the case and certainly dont pretend that you give a shit.

 

I vote Tory because I know they look after me and people in similar position to me.

 

I dont want poor people all of a sudden earning £15 per hour and sitting at the table next to me at a restaurant.  I want them earning £7.50, serving me my latte making me feel superior.

 

Not sure why so many people have an issue admitting that and try and mask it with economic argument.

 

If it salves your conscience to believe that, fill your boots, but you don't speak for me or anyone that I know.

 

Personally, I remember where I come from and I do give a shit. It's called integrity.

 

 

 

[Buce]

38 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Because they don't do the same thing, and plenty of studies have shown that happy, motivated workers are more productive.

 

Do you run a business?

 

You appear to have avoided answering this question, @Innovindil.

 

An oversight, I'm sure.

[Innovindil]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You appear to have avoided answering this question, @Innovindil.

 

An oversight, I'm sure.

My apologies, I don't right now but I have in the past. Admittedly it was only a small fast food joint. 

[Guest MattP]

50 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Why is this argument even taking place?

 

Lets be honest here.  The policies of today are designed to keep momey away from the poorest in society so those in the middle upwards stay comfortable and continue to cash generate.

 

If you’re in that block of middle up (as I am), dont pretend that you dont know this is the case and certainly dont pretend that you give a shit.

 

I vote Tory because I know they look after me and people in similar position to me.

 

I dont want poor people all of a sudden earning £15 per hour and sitting at the table next to me at a restaurant.  I want them earning £7.50, serving me my latte making me feel superior.

 

Not sure why so many people have an issue admitting that and try and mask it with economic argument.

Fair play for being honest but we don't all think like that.

 

One of the best things I thought the coalition did was to continually raise the level of income you could earn without paying tax, I wish they could have gone further. I lean to the right in terms of government because I believe that people spend their own money better than the people who rule over them do.

 

Most of my income at the minute comes from Australia and my earnings are calculated in AUD then sent here, Labour winning in June and the subsequent run on the pound would put more money in my pocket but I could never vote for it as I couldn't vote to make everyone poorer.

[Strokes]

29 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Fair play to you for admitting your motivations. I don't share your desire to keep poor people poor, but i definitely vote on behalf of my own interests. That's why as a middle upwards income earner, I can't vote for the current government. Because in reality they haven't looked after the top 50%, they've looked after the top 0.05% at most. Middle to moderate-high income workers have actually been the hardest hit by this government. They aren't looking after you at all.

To use your line, we have already discussed this and proved that its not true.

[Rogstanley]

22 minutes ago, Strokes said:

To use your line, we have already discussed this and proved that its not true.

Have we? Where? 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Have we? Where? 

The part where we discussed which percentiles had done good/bad from this government. 6th,7th,8th and 9th were all doing well and every other were below. It was either yours or toddys chart.

[Strokes]

On 23/11/2017 at 15:35, toddybad said:

Further evidence from the IFS of the government ruling for the rich.

Tom Waters, tax and benefits.pdf

For @Rogstanley

As you can see, its not only the very wealthiest doing ok. A couple with no children on minimum wage, working 40 hours a week, slot in the 7th decile by the skin of their teeth.

[Rogstanley]

8 minutes ago, Strokes said:

For @Rogstanley

As you can see, its not only the very wealthiest doing ok. A couple with no children on minimum wage, working 40 hours a week, slot in the 7th decile by the skin of their teeth.

How does the fact that a couple on minimum wage are in the top 40% mean people are doing well?? 

 

If you look at wage growth across income bands - I mean the proper ONS source data - you'll see wages falling across the board.

[Buce]

8 minutes ago, Strokes said:

For @Rogstanley

As you can see, its not only the very wealthiest doing ok. A couple with no children on minimum wage, working 40 hours a week, slot in the 7th decile by the skin of their teeth.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42218682

 

Poverty hits more children and pensioners, says charity

 

Thousands of people are struggling to make ends meet in the UK every day, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said.

An additional 700,000 UK children and pensioners have fallen into relative poverty - households with less than 60% the median income - over the past four years.

The charity said it was the first time in 20 years that poverty in these groups had seen sustained rises.

Ministers say their support is helping pensioners and families out of poverty.

What does the report say?

According to the JRF report, since 2013 an extra 300,000 pensioners and 400,000 children are now living in poverty and the "prospects for solving" the problem "currently look worrying".

 

"It is a real struggle for thousands and thousands of people every day to make ends meets," Campbell Robb, chief executive of the JRF, told Radio 4's Today programme.

Despite the government protecting the value of the basic state pension since 2010, the foundation says Pension Credit, a benefit paid to the poorest pensioners, has not kept pace with rising costs.

Researchers say the rise in child poverty has been driven by stagnant wages for low income families and a freeze on benefits and changes to tax credits, which many families, both in and out of work, rely on.

'I go without'

Karla McDonagh describes herself as "on the bread line".

The 31-year-old from Cheshire is a single mother to son, Cameron.

"I go without as long as he's eating and happy," she said. This can mean not having things like milk, sugar or butter.

"Sometimes it can be three days before I can afford to make something decent for tea.

"It's quite stressful. I have to sit back and reflect and think of options to make things better, re-budget my money - sometimes not pay my TV licence, just so I can go out and pay £25 on food at the end of the month. But I always get through it," she said.

 

For Flo Singleton, she struggles to get by with her pension from a part-time job.

"I have worked, I have not scrounged all my life," she said. "[But it has been] part-time only, because you have to fit it around the kids, don't you?"

She has resorted to spending time travelling on buses to keep warm, rather than turning on the heating at home.

Ms Singleton added: "It's heat or eat isn't it? If you go out, you don't have to have your heating on, do you? If you go on the buses, it doesn't cost you."

'A warning sign'

The charity says ending the benefits freeze is the single biggest change the government could do to help the 14m people - 4m children and 1.9m pensioners - now living in poverty.

New threats to the poorest households include rising housing costs, higher food and energy bills, debts and not being able to contribute to a pension, said the foundation.

The latest figures represent a "real warning sign that our hard-fought progress is in peril," Mr Robb added.

Shadow work and pensions secretary Debbie Abrahams said the figures were "totally unacceptable" and "a truly terrifying prospect for millions trying to make ends meet".

A government spokesman said since 2010, the number of people in absolute poverty - an assessment of basic living needs which takes into account a household's access to services as well as income - had fallen by more than 500,000.

He said: "We are spending an extra £4.2bn on pensioners, carers and disabled people next year, and continue to spend around £90bn a year supporting people of working age, including those who are out of work or on a low income."

What is relative poverty?

The report's reference to relative poverty means that a family has an income of less than 60% of median income for their family type, after housing costs.

For couples with no children, this is an income anything less than £248 a week. For a single person with no children, it is anything less than £144.

For a couple with two children, aged five and 14, an income of less than £401 a week is considered relative poverty, whilst a single parent with children of the same age would be in poverty if they had less than £297 per week.

[Strokes]

6 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

How does the fact that a couple on minimum wage are in the top 40% mean people are doing well?? 

 

If you look at wage growth across income bands - I mean the proper ONS source data - you'll see wages falling across the board.

It means a couple on minimum etc, are better off than before. Whch is contrary to your original remark.

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42218682

 

Poverty hits more children and pensioners, says charity

 

Thousands of people are struggling to make ends meet in the UK every day, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said.

An additional 700,000 UK children and pensioners have fallen into relative poverty - households with less than 60% the median income - over the past four years.

The charity said it was the first time in 20 years that poverty in these groups had seen sustained rises.

Ministers say their support is helping pensioners and families out of poverty.

What does the report say?

According to the JRF report, since 2013 an extra 300,000 pensioners and 400,000 children are now living in poverty and the "prospects for solving" the problem "currently look worrying".

 

"It is a real struggle for thousands and thousands of people every day to make ends meets," Campbell Robb, chief executive of the JRF, told Radio 4's Today programme.

Despite the government protecting the value of the basic state pension since 2010, the foundation says Pension Credit, a benefit paid to the poorest pensioners, has not kept pace with rising costs.

Researchers say the rise in child poverty has been driven by stagnant wages for low income families and a freeze on benefits and changes to tax credits, which many families, both in and out of work, rely on.

'I go without'

Karla McDonagh describes herself as "on the bread line".

The 31-year-old from Cheshire is a single mother to son, Cameron.

"I go without as long as he's eating and happy," she said. This can mean not having things like milk, sugar or butter.

"Sometimes it can be three days before I can afford to make something decent for tea.

"It's quite stressful. I have to sit back and reflect and think of options to make things better, re-budget my money - sometimes not pay my TV licence, just so I can go out and pay £25 on food at the end of the month. But I always get through it," she said.

 

For Flo Singleton, she struggles to get by with her pension from a part-time job.

"I have worked, I have not scrounged all my life," she said. "[But it has been] part-time only, because you have to fit it around the kids, don't you?"

She has resorted to spending time travelling on buses to keep warm, rather than turning on the heating at home.

Ms Singleton added: "It's heat or eat isn't it? If you go out, you don't have to have your heating on, do you? If you go on the buses, it doesn't cost you."

'A warning sign'

The charity says ending the benefits freeze is the single biggest change the government could do to help the 14m people - 4m children and 1.9m pensioners - now living in poverty.

New threats to the poorest households include rising housing costs, higher food and energy bills, debts and not being able to contribute to a pension, said the foundation.

The latest figures represent a "real warning sign that our hard-fought progress is in peril," Mr Robb added.

Shadow work and pensions secretary Debbie Abrahams said the figures were "totally unacceptable" and "a truly terrifying prospect for millions trying to make ends meet".

A government spokesman said since 2010, the number of people in absolute poverty - an assessment of basic living needs which takes into account a household's access to services as well as income - had fallen by more than 500,000.

He said: "We are spending an extra £4.2bn on pensioners, carers and disabled people next year, and continue to spend around £90bn a year supporting people of working age, including those who are out of work or on a low income."

What is relative poverty?

The report's reference to relative poverty means that a family has an income of less than 60% of median income for their family type, after housing costs.

For couples with no children, this is an income anything less than £248 a week. For a single person with no children, it is anything less than £144.

For a couple with two children, aged five and 14, an income of less than £401 a week is considered relative poverty, whilst a single parent with children of the same age would be in poverty if they had less than £297 per week.

Im not ignoring you buce, ill read properly on my lunch.

[RobHawk]

8 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It means a couple on minimum etc, are better off than before. Whch is contrary to your original remark.

Surely it just means they are better off compared to other income bands. Others being worse off does not make you better off.

[Strokes]

16 minutes ago, RobHawk said:

Surely it just means they are better off compared to other income bands. Others being worse off does not make you better off.

As far as i understand they are better off, there are only two income bands that are better off still and neither are the top 10%, which was the point i was contesting.

Edited 4 December 2017 by Strokes

[Guest MattP]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735

 

Quote

 

There are increasing indications that an agreement on the first phase of Brexit talks is about to be struck.

EU Council president Donald Tusk said he was "encouraged by progress" and a deal on Ireland, the "divorce bill" and citizens' rights was "getting closer".

Theresa May is meeting EU figures in an attempt to finalise the deal ahead of a summit in 10 days' time.

Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that the UK had made a concession on the Irish border.

The BBC's political editor said Mr Lamberts said the UK was prepared to accept that Northern Ireland may remain in the EU's customs union and single market in all but name. But, she stressed, the BBC has not yet seen the draft document nor has it yet been signed off.

 

 

 

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42217735

 

 

 

Boooooooooooooo!!!!

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Boooooooooooooo!!!!

We are laughing at this but that's probably now what Nick Clegg is actually doing.

[Guest Kopfkino]

Enjoyed this back-and-forth between Martin Wolf and the Legatum Institute:

 

Six impossible notions about ‘global Britain’

https://www.ft.com/content/06efe986-d52b-11e7-a303-9060cb1e5f44

 

A narrow-minded Brexit is doomed to fail

https://capx.co/a-narrow-minded-brexit-is-doomed-to-fail/

 

It's how the debate on Brexit should be

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42218682

 

Poverty hits more children and pensioners, says charity

 

Thousands of people are struggling to make ends meet in the UK every day, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said.

An additional 700,000 UK children and pensioners have fallen into relative poverty - households with less than 60% the median income - over the past four years.

The charity said it was the first time in 20 years that poverty in these groups had seen sustained rises.

Ministers say their support is helping pensioners and families out of poverty.

What does the report say?

According to the JRF report, since 2013 an extra 300,000 pensioners and 400,000 children are now living in poverty and the "prospects for solving" the problem "currently look worrying".

 

"It is a real struggle for thousands and thousands of people every day to make ends meets," Campbell Robb, chief executive of the JRF, told Radio 4's Today programme.

Despite the government protecting the value of the basic state pension since 2010, the foundation says Pension Credit, a benefit paid to the poorest pensioners, has not kept pace with rising costs.

Researchers say the rise in child poverty has been driven by stagnant wages for low income families and a freeze on benefits and changes to tax credits, which many families, both in and out of work, rely on.

'I go without'

Karla McDonagh describes herself as "on the bread line".

The 31-year-old from Cheshire is a single mother to son, Cameron.

"I go without as long as he's eating and happy," she said. This can mean not having things like milk, sugar or butter.

"Sometimes it can be three days before I can afford to make something decent for tea.

"It's quite stressful. I have to sit back and reflect and think of options to make things better, re-budget my money - sometimes not pay my TV licence, just so I can go out and pay £25 on food at the end of the month. But I always get through it," she said.

 

For Flo Singleton, she struggles to get by with her pension from a part-time job.

"I have worked, I have not scrounged all my life," she said. "[But it has been] part-time only, because you have to fit it around the kids, don't you?"

She has resorted to spending time travelling on buses to keep warm, rather than turning on the heating at home.

Ms Singleton added: "It's heat or eat isn't it? If you go out, you don't have to have your heating on, do you? If you go on the buses, it doesn't cost you."

'A warning sign'

The charity says ending the benefits freeze is the single biggest change the government could do to help the 14m people - 4m children and 1.9m pensioners - now living in poverty.

New threats to the poorest households include rising housing costs, higher food and energy bills, debts and not being able to contribute to a pension, said the foundation.

The latest figures represent a "real warning sign that our hard-fought progress is in peril," Mr Robb added.

Shadow work and pensions secretary Debbie Abrahams said the figures were "totally unacceptable" and "a truly terrifying prospect for millions trying to make ends meet".

A government spokesman said since 2010, the number of people in absolute poverty - an assessment of basic living needs which takes into account a household's access to services as well as income - had fallen by more than 500,000.

He said: "We are spending an extra £4.2bn on pensioners, carers and disabled people next year, and continue to spend around £90bn a year supporting people of working age, including those who are out of work or on a low income."

What is relative poverty?

The report's reference to relative poverty means that a family has an income of less than 60% of median income for their family type, after housing costs.

For couples with no children, this is an income anything less than £248 a week. For a single person with no children, it is anything less than £144.

For a couple with two children, aged five and 14, an income of less than £401 a week is considered relative poverty, whilst a single parent with children of the same age would be in poverty if they had less than £297 per week.

Yeah I'm not denying there are some people struggling and that this government is somehow perfect. Its not, it makes me mad all the time. I would much prefer a system where everyone is equal, the problem is though, we are not all equal in ability or application, and the utopian version doesnt work. 

I didn't vote for the conservatives at the last election, so i do acknowledge their failings but i do object that somehow its turkeys voting for Xmas. Some people do deserve to be poor, because they put no effort in whatsoever. If you lack in ability, you should make up for it in effort.

[Strokes]

28 minutes ago, MattP said:

We are laughing at this but that's probably now what Nick Clegg is actually doing.

I kinda meant it myself mate, I’m hoping talks breakdown and we crash out on wto terms. The word concession comes up way too often for my liking.

[Fox Ulike]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42218682

 

Poverty hits more children and pensioners, says charity

 

Thousands of people are struggling to make ends meet in the UK every day, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has said.

An additional 700,000 UK children and pensioners have fallen into relative poverty - households with less than 60% the median income - over the past four years.

The charity said it was the first time in 20 years that poverty in these groups had seen sustained rises.

Ministers say their support is helping pensioners and families out of poverty.

What does the report say?

According to the JRF report, since 2013 an extra 300,000 pensioners and 400,000 children are now living in poverty and the "prospects for solving" the problem "currently look worrying".

 

"It is a real struggle for thousands and thousands of people every day to make ends meets," Campbell Robb, chief executive of the JRF, told Radio 4's Today programme.

Despite the government protecting the value of the basic state pension since 2010, the foundation says Pension Credit, a benefit paid to the poorest pensioners, has not kept pace with rising costs.

Researchers say the rise in child poverty has been driven by stagnant wages for low income families and a freeze on benefits and changes to tax credits, which many families, both in and out of work, rely on.

'I go without'

Karla McDonagh describes herself as "on the bread line".

The 31-year-old from Cheshire is a single mother to son, Cameron.

"I go without as long as he's eating and happy," she said. This can mean not having things like milk, sugar or butter.

"Sometimes it can be three days before I can afford to make something decent for tea.

"It's quite stressful. I have to sit back and reflect and think of options to make things better, re-budget my money - sometimes not pay my TV licence, just so I can go out and pay £25 on food at the end of the month. But I always get through it," she said.

 

For Flo Singleton, she struggles to get by with her pension from a part-time job.

"I have worked, I have not scrounged all my life," she said. "[But it has been] part-time only, because you have to fit it around the kids, don't you?"

She has resorted to spending time travelling on buses to keep warm, rather than turning on the heating at home.

Ms Singleton added: "It's heat or eat isn't it? If you go out, you don't have to have your heating on, do you? If you go on the buses, it doesn't cost you."

'A warning sign'

The charity says ending the benefits freeze is the single biggest change the government could do to help the 14m people - 4m children and 1.9m pensioners - now living in poverty.

New threats to the poorest households include rising housing costs, higher food and energy bills, debts and not being able to contribute to a pension, said the foundation.

The latest figures represent a "real warning sign that our hard-fought progress is in peril," Mr Robb added.

Shadow work and pensions secretary Debbie Abrahams said the figures were "totally unacceptable" and "a truly terrifying prospect for millions trying to make ends meet".

A government spokesman said since 2010, the number of people in absolute poverty - an assessment of basic living needs which takes into account a household's access to services as well as income - had fallen by more than 500,000.

He said: "We are spending an extra £4.2bn on pensioners, carers and disabled people next year, and continue to spend around £90bn a year supporting people of working age, including those who are out of work or on a low income."

What is relative poverty?

The report's reference to relative poverty means that a family has an income of less than 60% of median income for their family type, after housing costs.

For couples with no children, this is an income anything less than £248 a week. For a single person with no children, it is anything less than £144.

For a couple with two children, aged five and 14, an income of less than £401 a week is considered relative poverty, whilst a single parent with children of the same age would be in poverty if they had less than £297 per week.

 

OK but that's relative poverty. Which is defined as : - households with less than 60% the median income.

 

So how much is that? What is your actual income if you are classified as being in 'relative poverty'.

[Buce]

20 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah I'm not denying there are some people struggling and that this government is somehow perfect. Its not, it makes me mad all the time. I would much prefer a system where everyone is equal, the problem is though, we are not all equal in ability or application, and the utopian version doesnt work. 

I didn't vote for the conservatives at the last election, so i do acknowledge their failings but i do object that somehow its turkeys voting for Xmas. Some people do deserve to be poor, because they put no effort in whatsoever. If you lack in ability, you should make up for it in effort.

 

Unfortunately, their children are living in the same poverty and they don't deserve it.

 

And the only answers to that are sterilisation, removal of the children, or accept that in any given society there are going to be people who are effectively unemployable and, if for no other reason, for the sake of their children, we will support them with the basic needs of life.

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

 

OK but that's relative poverty. Which is defined as : - households with less than 60% the median income.

 

So how much is that? What is your actual income if you are classified as being in 'relative poverty'.

 

It tells you that.

 

Under the heading What is relative poverty?.