Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I'm sure there is. I just don't know how you can accuse the govt of not collecting tax if you don't know what tax there is to collect. It seems like a cynical trope based on prejudice.

Did you see those headlines about the paradise papers?

[Captain...]

This is purely anecdotal evidence, but there are a lot more homeless people around this year than this time last year, it is very noticeable in London. As well as an increase in theft, such as moped gangs snatching bags, that is a result of the way we are going.

 

Now it is still a small number, we are not talking end of days stuff, but it is noticeable.

 

When it comes to hungry children and elderly, I am a firm believer in their being enough wealth generated in this country to help out all of those less fortunate, we are a rich country, but we have become a greedy and selfish country. Whereas once we would help our neighbour we distrust them and ignore them. This is more true in London than say rural Leicestershire, but it is true. The solution isn't either of these:

28 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

There are no easy answers, the solution is to:

 

Right wing answer: force defenceless children to go to school hungry, take benefits away from defenceless disabled people; blame everything on defenceless immigrants.

 

Left wing answer: stand up to the super rich and big business and make them pay a fair share.

 

 

Not difficult to see the theme is it?

The solution is finding balance not divisive polarised politics, but that isn't going to happen while brexit continues to split the country, parliament, political parties, even the continent. It may end up being a success, but at the moment it is a drain on finances, resources and a distraction to addressing the things that are actually a real problem in the UK.

Edited 13 December 2017 by Captain...

[Rogstanley]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Well I’ve never seen a right wing person say it’s all the fault of them defenceless migrants. You say they blame all and then call them defenceless, it’s the obvious conclusion you mean them all.

You've never seen a right wing person blame immigrants? Foxin_mad was blaming them for the fact wages are plummeting a couple of pages ago, among probably hundreds of examples in this thread alone.

 

Immigrants as a cohort are generally defenceless when they come here, they have fewer rights (not being allowed to vote etc - not saying they should be allowed to, just making the point) and often are only part of a small community who don't have much of a voice. 

 

Argue the toss over exactly what is meant by defenceless and whether every immigrsnt csn be described as such if you like, the point is that the right always go after the easier targets be they immigrants, the disabled, the unemployed and now in this thread, starving children. 

 

In school they call the kids who go after easy targets bullies and cowards. I think the same applies to adults.

Edited 13 December 2017 by Rogstanley

[Webbo]

Just now, toddybad said:

Did you see those headlines about the paradise papers?

I've admitted that there is tax avoidance but nobody knows how much and if the govt doesn't know about it how do you expect them to collect it? 

 

The left claim that they will be magically be able to know exactly what's owed (even though avoidance is legal) and the extra they will be able to collect will pay for everything that's wrong in the world. It's bullshit and fairytales.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

15 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

You've never seen a right wing person blame immigrants? Foxin_mad was blaming them for the fact wages are plummeting a couple of pages ago, among probably hundreds of examples in this thread alone.

 

Immigrants as a cohort are generally defenceless when they come here, they have fewer rights (not being allowed to vote etc - not saying they should be allowed to, just making the point) and often are only part of a small community who don't have much of a voice. 

 

Argue the toss over exactly what is meant by defenceless and whether every immigrsnt csn be described as such if you like, the point is that the right always go after the easier targets be they immigrants, the disabled, the unemployed and now in this thread, starving children. 

 

In school they can the kids who go after easy targets bullies and cowards. I think the same applies to adults.

Goodness me you do talk some tripe, you need to look up from whatever left wing blog your head is stuck in.

 

I have never blamed immigrants for anything. I have said they are one of the reasons for low age growth particularly in the least well paid jobs:

 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/

 

Its not because they are defenceless it is a fact, its not their fault in fact full credit to them. They have moved home to work hard and provide for their family. However in an economy such as ours, with higher living standards than the eastern block it causes a supply and demand problem, they will do the work for a lot less than the locals often being better workers. This is the problems allowing countries with massive disparity in living standards to be part of a common travel area, of course people will gravitate to the more wealthy economies.

 

Working here for 2 years on minimum wage in a low paid job allows them to live at home or build a new house and educate themselves in their home nation for many years.

 

Massive chip on the left shoulder I think, no one on the right is going after anyone apart from you for talking tripe!

 

You have good intentions though I am sure, you just seem to have been brainwashed by Momentum.

 

 

Edited 13 December 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Rogstanley]

41 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Mid to late 30s.

 

I just don't buy any of this modern world vanity and materialistic nature. I've done all of that stuff and its fake, unnecessary and expensive.

 

To be honest you can live in a reasonable house, with warmth, good food and be surrounded by good people. It doesn't cost anywhere near as much and life is a lot happier.

 

In some ways there is a lot to learn from retirees. Living a simple life, fixing stuff when it breaks, growing some veg, using local shops, having a wood fire and getting the logs from walks, reading, music, volunteering, eating and drinking with friends. And Obviously being a Tory Scumbag shitbag vile ****!

It's indicative of your mindset that you think that millions of retirees can be so easily generalised. It's as if you've met one retiree, perhaps even someone in your own family, who owns a wood burner and grows veg and now you genuinely think every single retiree owns a wood burner and grows veg. 

 

Nevertheless I don't see anyone arguing that the lifestyle you've described is anything other than fine if that's what you want. It's only the right wing usually who try to tell people what lifestyles are acceptable.

 

The issue is that living standards are falling, and if we don't do something about it, they will keep falling.

 

Already your dream of becoming a wood-burning, veg growing retiree is out of reach for many because to do that you need a) a big enough garden with the right orientation and b) to be able to actually retire before your back goes, and both of those things are going in the wrong direction. Property prices are getting more and more expensive, retirement looking less and less likely.

 

The longer we keep going in the wrong direction; the longer we lie down and let ourselves be dictated to by big business and the super rich, the less likely that dream is of becoming a reality for any of us.

[Izzy]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

 

The longer we keep going in the wrong direction; the longer we lie down and let ourselves be dictated to by big business and the super rich, the less likely that dream is of becoming a reality for any of us.

You seem to have a real bug up your ass when it comes to big business and rich people.

 

Have you been subjected to some big injustice in the past or sacked unfairly by a large corporate or something?

[Rogstanley]

14 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

You seem to have a real bug up your ass when it comes to big business and rich people.

 

Have you been subjected to some big injustice in the past or sacked unfairly by a large corporate or something?

Yes I think we've all been subject to the injustice of seeing our wages go down to fund the increased wealth of the super rich.

[Innovindil]

12 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Yes I think we've all been subject to the injustice of seeing our wages go down to fund the increased wealth of the super rich.

Just out of mild curiosity, what is it you actually do for a job? 

[Izzy]

15 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Yes I think we've all been subject to the injustice of seeing our wages go down to fund the increased wealth of the super rich.

Not all of us, no.

 

[Rogstanley]

5 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Not all of us, no.

 

As long as you're ok eh.

 

Even if your wages have gone up, you're rowing against the current when you shouldn't have to be. 

Edited 13 December 2017 by Rogstanley

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Just out of mild curiosity, what is it you actually do for a job? 

Answer given and read so now edited for privacy 

Edited 13 December 2017 by Rogstanley

[Carl the Llama]

6 hours ago, MattP said:

Hyperbole maybe. But I did actually sit there other day watching a family member complaining about benefits whilst typing away on her new £650 IPhone 8.

 

The absurdity of it didn't pass me by.

Clearly your family member's parents need to be educated on how to raise children.

 

5 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

 

As is the belief that everyone is so poor all the children are starving and the poor are dying and rotting in the streets like the Victorian era. Its complete bollocks! but it doesn't stop the left keep banging on about it for political point scoring. Yes the country is not perfect, it never will be. If you think its bad now I cant wait to see what they think when their is mass unemployment, rampant inflation because of the devalued pound if we ever get the misfortune to have a Corbyn led extreme left government.

 

I didn't say everyone does. What annoys me is the bleeding heart brigade saying everyone is dying on the streets right before us, yet in reality if you go outside the majority are fine. Yes there are some families in very bad situations but not everyone is poor and desperate as the left like to make out. Those people should get genuine help absolutely.

One person posts a news article about how increasing numbers of children are being reportedly underfed when they arrive at school and your response is to lash out at all the imaginary parents with "a curvy screen  3D Super HD TV" not feeding their kids... 

 

Then when pulled up on your bizarre outburst you start complaining about hypothetical left wingers hypothetically over-reacting to the story.  Ok then.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, Rogstanley said:

It's indicative of your mindset that you think that millions of retirees can be so easily generalised. It's as if you've met one retiree, perhaps even someone in your own family, who owns a wood burner and grows veg and now you genuinely think every single retiree owns a wood burner and grows veg. 

 

Nevertheless I don't see anyone arguing that the lifestyle you've described is anything other than fine if that's what you want. It's only the right wing usually who try to tell people what lifestyles are acceptable.

 

The issue is that living standards are falling, and if we don't do something about it, they will keep falling.

 

Already your dream of becoming a wood-burning, veg growing retiree is out of reach for many because to do that you need a) a big enough garden with the right orientation and b) to be able to actually retire before your back goes, and both of those things are going in the wrong direction. Property prices are getting more and more expensive, retirement looking less and less likely.

 

The longer we keep going in the wrong direction; the longer we lie down and let ourselves be dictated to by big business and the super rich, the less likely that dream is of becoming a reality for any of us.

I didn't generalise them I was merely referencing what Toddy had suggested I was a retiree. Perhaps because I am a Tory Scumbag shit stain or something!

 

I think the left wing are the worst at telling us what lifestyles we should live it comes with the self righteous nature they tend to have. We must do this or that and you must pay extra tax or you are a scum shitter - TORIES OUT - **** TORIES - the government must hold our hands in everything we do. The right just believe in letting people get on with it.

 

So if you allow millions of people into a country that come from a country with a lower living standard what exactly do you expect to happen?

A) Them all get rich off the nasty rich men

B) They lower the standard of living in host country as they will do the same work for less

 

Its already a reality, stop drinking Starbucks buying the latest iPhone, subscribing to Sky etc. etc. and your Money will go further. The problem with people today is that they are too self entitled.

 

The bizarre thing is you think the solution to the problems is a Labour government, so more unskilled immigration, more tax, more spend less jobs. How is that going to help 'the many' when all the businesses move out of the UK and there is widespread unemployment? Read the article for Kopf business is more scared of investing because of Corbyn and not Brexit.

[Rogstanley]

10 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I didn't generalise them I was merely referencing what Toddy had suggested I was a retiree. Perhaps because I am a Tory Scumbag shit stain or something!

 

I think the left wing are the worst at telling us what lifestyles we should live it comes with the self righteous nature they tend to have. We must do this or that and you must pay extra tax or you are a scum shitter - TORIES OUT - **** TORIES - the government must hold our hands in everything we do. The right just believe in letting people get on with it.

 

So if you allow millions of people into a country that come from a country with a lower living standard what exactly do you expect to happen?

A) Them all get rich off the nasty rich men

B) They lower the standard of living in host country as they will do the same work for less

 

Its already a reality, stop drinking Starbucks buying the latest iPhone, subscribing to Sky etc. etc. and your Money will go further. The problem with people today is that they are too self entitled.

 

The bizarre thing is you think the solution to the problems is a Labour government, so more unskilled immigration, more tax, more spend less jobs. How is that going to help 'the many' when all the businesses move out of the UK and there is widespread unemployment? Read the article for Kopf business is more scared of investing because of Corbyn and not Brexit.

Conservatives by their nature don't like anything new or that they don't understand. Liberals by their nature are more accepting of people doing what they want with their lives. Just look at attitudes towards personal drug use, homosexuality etc. It's always the conservatives trying to tell people they can't do this or that.

 

The rest of your post is just a rehash of points I've already dealt with and like I said earlier, I can't be bothered to go though it all again. 

Edited 13 December 2017 by Rogstanley

[Guest Foxin_mad]

14 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Clearly your family member's parents need to be educated on how to raise children.

 

One person posts a news article about how increasing numbers of children are being reportedly underfed when they arrive at school and your response is to lash out at all the imaginary parents with "a curvy screen  3D Super HD TV" not feeding their kids... 

 

Then when pulled up on your bizarre outburst you start complaining about hypothetical left wingers hypothetically over-reacting to the story.  Ok then.

I don't think Matts family member is a anomaly. I have done volunteering in Inner city schools and 75% of the parents are glue to their Facebook screen instead of listening to the course which helps them to learn to cook cheap meals and hold meaningful conversations with a child. Are they imaginary parents? no there are many parents who do not look after their children, why is that I do not know, many of them really should not have had children.

 

Left wingers over react to every story like the world is going to end tomorrow and all the poor are going to die. Actually you go outside and most people and things are fine, the NHS is still there, Schools are open, bins are collected far from the hell that Corbyn supporters have us believe.  People really fall for this far left class war shit started by Momentum and Corbyn. He is a nasty divisive idiot.

 

 

Edited 13 December 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest Foxin_mad]

12 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Conservatives by their nature don't like anything new or that they don't understand. Liberals by their nature are more accepting of people doing what they want with their lives.

 

The rest of your post is just a rehash of points I've already dealt with and like I said earlier, I can't be bothered to go though it all again. 

Well its funny seeing as all the lefties are normally the most self righteous bunch telling everyone what they should do and think. The Irony!

 

Please see self righteous I am always right post above!

 

Let me get this right then.

 

1. All business is going to leave the UK because of Brexit, we are all going to starve and become homeless

2. All business and rich people will happily stay in the UK under a high taxation Labour government because its too much hassle to move and the UK is a great place to do business especially under socialists investing lots of money into magical wonderful things that will make everything nice and everyone will become rich as the nurses spend their extra wages the economy will be boosted we will pay back our debt with all the extra growth we have.

 

Got it Sir 

 

PS: Surely it will be too much hassle for them to move because of Brexit if not because of Corbyn and the far left? No

Edited 13 December 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Rogstanley]

12 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Well its funny seeing as all the lefties are normally the most self righteous bunch telling everyone what they should do and think. The Irony!

 

Please see self righteous I am always right post above!

 

Let me get this right then.

 

1. All business is going to leave the UK because of Brexit, we are all going to starve and become homeless

2. All business and rich people will happily stay in the UK under a high taxation Labour government because its too much hassle to move and the UK is a great place to do business especially under socialists investing lots of money into magical wonderful things that will make everything nice and everyone will become rich as the nurses spend their extra wages the economy will be boosted we will pay back our debt with all the extra growth we have.

 

Got it Sir 

 

PS: Surely it will be too much hassle for them to move because of Brexit if not because of Corbyn and the far left? No

Quote me where I've said all businesses will leave because of brexit or that people are going to starve and become homeless? 

 

I've not said anything like that anywhere.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

I've admitted that there is tax avoidance but nobody knows how much and if the govt doesn't know about it how do you expect them to collect it? 

 

The left claim that they will be magically be able to know exactly what's owed (even though avoidance is legal) and the extra they will be able to collect will pay for everything that's wrong in the world. It's bullshit and fairytales.

No, labour mentions clamping down on tax avoidance but primarily intends to bring down the deficit on everyday expenditure, bringing in additional revenue through increased taxes to do so, with additional borrowing for capital projects that being about economic rewards. A brilliant plan.

 

Far better than cutting taxes, cutting services, cutting growth and generally cutting the potential of the UK economy.

[Webbo]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

No, labour mentions clamping down on tax avoidance but primarily intends to bring down the deficit on everyday expenditure, bringing in additional revenue through increased taxes to do so, with additional borrowing for capital projects that being about economic rewards. A brilliant plan.

 

Far better than cutting taxes, cutting services, cutting growth and generally cutting the potential of the UK economy.

They planned on cutting down on tax avoidance in 1997 as well. Labour talk, tories do.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Webbo said:

They planned on cutting down on tax avoidance in 1997 as well. Labour talk, tories do.

Labour oversaw the greatest 10 years of growth in modern British history. Public services shone and ordinary people got significantly richer.

 

A worldwide financial crisis then hit. This caused chaos across the globe. Gordon Brown led the G20 talks that dealt with the response and a multi trillion dollar stimulus was agreed. UK growth rose to 3.1%. Then labour lost the election.

 

The last 7 years have seen people getting poorer and public services on the verge of collapse. The tories promised to reach a budget surplus (why on earth would you want to pay tax that isn't even spent) in one parliament. This ridiculous plan to tax less to achieve this has failed completely yet the tories can't change tack because of their own bullshit. Budget equilibrium we're now told is 10 years off and even then we are growing more slowly than every other g7 country with no positive economic data to suggest the government has done anything but run us aground into stagnation. Cutting out of a financial crisis is what led the us into the great depression in the last century and the UK is making the same mistakes.

Edited 13 December 2017 by Guest

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Labour oversaw the greatest 10 years of growth in modern British history. Public services shone and ordinary people got significantly richer.

 

A worldwide financial crisis then hit. This caused chaos across the globe. Gordon Brown led the G20 talks that dealt with the response and a multi trillion dollar stimulus was agreed. UK growth rose to 3.1%. Then labour lost the election.

 

The last 7 years have seen people getting poorer and public services on the verge of collapse. The tories promised to reach a budget surplus (why on earth would you want to pay tax that isn't even spent) on one parliament. This ridiculous plan to tax less to achieve this has failed completely yet the tortures can't change tack because of their own bullshit. Budget equilibrium we're now told is 10 years off and even then we are growing more slowly than every other g7 country with no positive economic data to suggest the government has done anything but run us aground into stagnation. Cutting out of a financial crisis is what led the us into the great depression on the last century and the UK is making the same mistakes.

So the boom was all down to Labour but the crash was world events?

 

As for why would you want to pay tax on money that isn't spent, what is the tax paid for interest on debt?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

So the boom was all down to Labour but the crash was world events?

 

As for why would you want to pay tax on money that isn't spent, what is the tax paid for interest on debt?

If the economic returns from borrowing are greater than the interest payments then it's a fantastic investment.

[Webbo]

Just now, toddybad said:

If the economic returns from borrowing are greater than the interest payments then it's a fantastic investment.

If being the operative word.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

If being the operative word.

This government has increased debt by £700billion. What have you seen for that? Would it not be better to spend on things that make your life better and increase growth?

 

Out of interest, HS2 will cost £80bil. Trident will cost £250billion. Do you support the tories borrowing to invest?