Divorce

[Alf Bentley]

23 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Can't be a pleasant experience for anyone. Is there a replacement on the horizon or are you not looking yet?

 

Got pretty unpleasant for a few months midway through last year, when we were negotiating the terms for the divorce. But we've been separated for 4 months now - and have been cooperating in a civil, almost friendly way over childcare, so life is much better now. Mind you, I'll be glad when I hopefully hear that the Consent Order (terms for divorce) has court approval. That's what caused the most tension last year - when the ex twice pulled out of agreements at the last minute (one of them an agreement that she had proposed and I had accepted) without proposing an alternative or explaining her change of mind.

 

No replacement on the horizon and not looking yet. When I do resume an interest, I reckon I'll want to compromise LESS than in the past, not more, at least as regards any serious relationship (wouldn't be fussy about a few flings ).

I'd now prefer to end up alone than with someone unsuitable (though the ex and I obviously did suit one another for many years, just diverged in priorities, as I understand it). Mind you, if you have any attractive, unattached sisters, I can pass on my address (provided they don't vote Tory)... 

[Mike Oxlong]

44 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Got pretty unpleasant for a few months midway through last year, when we were negotiating the terms for the divorce. But we've been separated for 4 months now - and have been cooperating in a civil, almost friendly way over childcare, so life is much better now. Mind you, I'll be glad when I hopefully hear that the Consent Order (terms for divorce) has court approval. That's what caused the most tension last year - when the ex twice pulled out of agreements at the last minute (one of them an agreement that she had proposed and I had accepted) without proposing an alternative or explaining her change of mind.

 

No replacement on the horizon and not looking yet. When I do resume an interest, I reckon I'll want to compromise LESS than in the past, not more, at least as regards any serious relationship (wouldn't be fussy about a few flings ).

I'd now prefer to end up alone than with someone unsuitable (though the ex and I obviously did suit one another for many years, just diverged in priorities, as I understand it). Mind you, if you have any attractive, unattached sisters, I can pass on my address (provided they don't vote Tory)... 

 

Looking forward to reading about your adventures in the Tinder thread Alf  

[FoxesDeb]

Hoping someone here can help with this please. My friends wife has thrown him out of their house as she suspected he was having an affair. She now won't let him see their 2 children for more than a couple of hours once a week, and she wants him to continue paying for her to live in the house as she doesn't work much although the children are both at school full time and she is a qualified hairdresser with a salon in the converted garage. She can't claim anything as she has secretly been saving and has now admitted to having over £30k stashed, she is refusing to spend this on the upkeep of the house though on the advice of her solicitor. He's currently living back with his parents as he can't afford to move anywhere else, although he earns a decent salary it's all going to her atm. 

Obviously he's going to see a solicitor, but I wondered if anyone here could help in the interim.

 

[Innovindil]

20 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Hoping someone here can help with this please. My friends wife has thrown him out of their house as she suspected he was having an affair. She now won't let him see their 2 children for more than a couple of hours once a week, and she wants him to continue paying for her to live in the house as she doesn't work much although the children are both at school full time and she is a qualified hairdresser with a salon in the converted garage. She can't claim anything as she has secretly been saving and has now admitted to having over £30k stashed, she is refusing to spend this on the upkeep of the house though on the advice of her solicitor. He's currently living back with his parents as he can't afford to move anywhere else, although he earns a decent salary it's all going to her atm. 

Obviously he's going to see a solicitor, but I wondered if anyone here could help in the interim.

 

So she wants to give him a couple of hours with the kids but pay all her bills? **** that nonsense. I'd twat her with a brick. 

 

Probably best not to take my advice and wait for someone more skilled in negotiations tbh.

[Manwell Pablo]

49 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Hoping someone here can help with this please. My friends wife has thrown him out of their house as she suspected he was having an affair. She now won't let him see their 2 children for more than a couple of hours once a week, and she wants him to continue paying for her to live in the house as she doesn't work much although the children are both at school full time and she is a qualified hairdresser with a salon in the converted garage. She can't claim anything as she has secretly been saving and has now admitted to having over £30k stashed, she is refusing to spend this on the upkeep of the house though on the advice of her solicitor. He's currently living back with his parents as he can't afford to move anywhere else, although he earns a decent salary it's all going to her atm. 

Obviously he's going to see a solicitor, but I wondered if anyone here could help in the interim.

 

 

 

There's a very simple solution to this, just say no.

 

Legally he has to pay maintenance for his children and the minimum payments are not that much, he can find out what he needs to pay her on HMRC's website. To get anymore she'd have to take him to court and win. 

 

Solicitor would say that she'd be paying 100% to maintain a house that is only legally 50% hers. 

 

Although I guess technically it is still his mortgage and it could cause problems I'd suggest as a short term strategy at least it would show her he is not to be pushed around.

 

He should take some of that money and get a solicitor himself as well, paying everything for someone else to live in house with his name on the deeds and not being able to step foot in it is not legal unless he allows it to be.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry for continually editing this!

 

I will add if he has actually been unfaithful and she has evidence then he is in a slightly poorer position than if he hasn't.

[Alf Bentley]

On 04/10/2018 at 15:45, FoxesDeb said:

Hoping someone here can help with this please. My friends wife has thrown him out of their house as she suspected he was having an affair. She now won't let him see their 2 children for more than a couple of hours once a week, and she wants him to continue paying for her to live in the house as she doesn't work much although the children are both at school full time and she is a qualified hairdresser with a salon in the converted garage. She can't claim anything as she has secretly been saving and has now admitted to having over £30k stashed, she is refusing to spend this on the upkeep of the house though on the advice of her solicitor. He's currently living back with his parents as he can't afford to move anywhere else, although he earns a decent salary it's all going to her atm. 

Obviously he's going to see a solicitor, but I wondered if anyone here could help in the interim.

 

 

A few thoughts based on personal experience (separated last year, divorced earlier this year). I have no legal expertise....

 

- If there's any prospect of a reconciliation, worth trying Relate counselling. From now on, I'll assume that's not on the cards (this is the divorce thread, after all)

- Even a divorce with no disagreements will take 4-6 months to finalise, so he probably needs legal advice on how to get a better arrangement for the next few months, particularly over child access

- My solicitor advised, if possible, not to leave the family home until divorce terms are agreed (appreciate sometimes this is unavoidable - and your mate has already left); legally, he's presumably entitled to move back in...probably not a good idea, but could be used as a bargaining chip (e.g. "I'd be entitled to move back in; I won't....but you need to allow me better access to kids"?)

- There is still no such thing as a "no fault" divorce, so unless they're prepared to remain separated for 2 years before divorcing, either one will have to admit to infidelity or one will have to divorce the other on the grounds of specified "unreasonable behaviour". Accepting you've been unfaithful or have behaved "unreasonably" doesn't affect legal outcomes according to my solicitor, provided you're not admitting to domestic violence or something.

- Mediation is an option, if both are prepared to act reasonably. This is different from Relate - the mediation is provided by specialist mediation lawyers, who are neutral parties. We did this via the Sue West firm (Leicester) & I found them fair and helpful (even if my ex then tried to get out of the negotiated deal at the last minute!)

- Costs (approx): Mediation - £750-£1k each; Mediation + straightforward agreement via solicitors - £2k-£3k each; Extended negotiations via solicitors - £5k+ each; Court proceedings: £15k+ each.....worth focusing on that!

- Although a solicitor is helpful, if not essential, don't see them as being just "on your side". While a confrontational approach is sometimes necessary, solicitors can be unnecessarily confrontational....after all, longer proceedings and court cases earn them more money...at your expense!!

- Courts (if it gets that far) will normally give the non-resident parent child access of at least every other weekend, 50% of school holidays & possibly a weekday evening, unless the parent is proven to be violent, a paedophile etc. Even if he has had an affair, this would be ignored, as I understand it, as the No. 1 priority is the welfare of the kids and the assumption is that it is good for kids to have regular contact with the non-resident parent.

- Manwell is right that minimum child maintenance payments are not very high (about £120 per month per child unless you're earning megabucks?). The wife's solicitor will probably make her aware of this, but worth mentioning it if he's paying more....paying more can be used as a tactic to get concessions in other areas (e.g. access)

- On splitting the capital (house, savings, any other assets - and this includes the value of accumulated pension contributions), again the law makes the welfare of the kids top priority. So, if they don't have many savings and the kids are mainly going to live with the wife, she'll probably get the house (but be expected to maintain it in future). If they both have enough prospective income to support themselves without that, the starting assumption is normally a 50-50 split of capital....Highly unlikely that a court would think she could support herself and the kids from hairdressing income if she's currently earning very little, I'd guess, though it could be taken into account in negotiations between solicitors

- If they have a mortgage and she's not likely to be able to pay that in the long-term, then unless he's prepared to fund that, they might need to sell up....in which case, she'd probably get most of the proceeds but still might end up renting......

- If they both think it best for the kids not to have their home life disrupted, maybe it would be possible for him to keep funding the house in the short-term, but to demand better access (which he'll almost certainly get eventually, anyway)? Maybe she could then build an income from her home salon. Even if he agrees to pay above the minimum maintenance, he could hopefully pay a lot less, enabling him to get his own place.

- Unless one or other is a complete nutter, it's in both their interests to negotiate a deal that works for both, otherwise the risk is that they end up with a lifetime of bitterness, disrupting future childcare arrangements - and both end up financially ruined, having given all their money to lawyers and the courts. 

- On that last point, her £30k savings could be significant....I doubt she'd be entitled to legal aid with those savings, so a hostile divorce will see her giving most of those savings to solicitors....could motivate her to do a reasonable deal!

 

More than enough already!!  

[broughtonblue]

Having been through a sh1t divorce when my partner of 30 years decided to open her legs for whoever,  some advice...

 

Fight for everything you hold dear, why would you move out the home when nothing is your fault.

Do not use a firm based in Leicester which is owned by and staffed by all women if you are a bloke. Pm me for details if you wish

If your wife has 30k in the bank go for half of it

If you have kids, and they are old enough , and you have nothing to hide show them all the solicitors letters and legal documents, as the ex will most likely be feeding your kids crap.

If your ex is a self employed hairdresser like mine, be prepared for her to say she earns feck all as most of it is cash.

Although you might want to kill her, resist as this will ruin your future life.

If you are struggling emotionally go for counselling,  its a life saver

Finally... never ever give up on the things you hold close to you, your life or your family

[Alf Bentley]

On 06/10/2018 at 13:56, Alf Bentley said:

 

- Mediation is an option, if both are prepared to act reasonably. This is different from Relate - the mediation is provided by specialist mediation lawyers, who are neutral parties. We did this via the Sue West firm (Leicester) & I found them fair and helpful (even if my ex then tried to get out of the negotiated deal at the last minute!)

 

 

Apologies for self-quoting, but I forgot an important point here: mediation is over the terms for divorce or separation, not with a view to reconciliation. 

 

So, the aim is not to help a couple patch up their differences. The aim is for the mediator to help the couple to agree terms for divorce/separation re. child access, maintenance payments and joint property - and to thereby minimise bitter disputes and avoid the much greater expense of settling those disputes via solicitors or in court (even more expensive - and outcome may be unpredictable).

 

If a draft agreement can be reached through mediation, it can then be finalised via solicitors, 1 acting for each party.

[Vince Vega]

On 07/10/2018 at 14:43, Alf Bentley said:

 

Apologies for self-quoting, but I forgot an important point here: mediation is over the terms for divorce or separation, not with a view to reconciliation. 

 

So, the aim is not to help a couple patch up their differences. The aim is for the mediator to help the couple to agree terms for divorce/separation re. child access, maintenance payments and joint property - and to thereby minimise bitter disputes and avoid the much greater expense of settling those disputes via solicitors or in court (even more expensive - and outcome may be unpredictable).

 

If a draft agreement can be reached through mediation, it can then be finalised via solicitors, 1 acting for each party.

Agree with you Alf.  My ex and I went through this type mediation - offered by Relate as it happens.  If you both can be honest, and put the children first (rather than using them to gain the upper hand) it works.

 

Word of advice though, once we had the draft, both sets of solicitors tried to get us to change it - trying to spark off the negotiations again.  We just told them no and to get on with it.   

[Alf Bentley]

6 hours ago, Vince Vega said:

Agree with you Alf.  My ex and I went through this type mediation - offered by Relate as it happens.  If you both can be honest, and put the children first (rather than using them to gain the upper hand) it works.

 

Word of advice though, once we had the draft, both sets of solicitors tried to get us to change it - trying to spark off the negotiations again.  We just told them no and to get on with it.   

 

Yes, I think mediation is a really good option - so long as both parties are prepared to be honest and reasonable. No point otherwise, I imagine. Our agreement ended up being the one made through mediation, though not before a family member from my in-laws had intervened, persuading my ex she should be getting more cash.....which just incurred us both extra solicitor's fees.

 

Your second point is what I meant in my long post, about not automatically seeing your solicitor as acting in your best interests. Yes, they'll be able to advise you on the legal options, strategies and likely outcomes - and do the essential legal docs. But it's a mistake to take their advice without thinking. My impression was that too often their instinct was for maximum confrontation, not always the best option. Whether that was cynically to earn themselves more fees or was rooted in a desire to prove that they were "standing up for their client to get them the best possible deal", I don't know. 

[FoxesDeb]

Does anyone have much experience with seeing their children after a split? It was touched on earlier in this thread, but I'd like to hear how people have worked it out with their ex's. 

My friends ex wife is refusing to allow him to have his children overnight, can she do this? 

Will a court grant him overnight access? There are no safety concerns and he has plenty of room for them, she just says he can only see them on Saturdays. 

[Christoph]

Your friend needs to speak to a solicitor. To be honest, reading this thread, the only real advise to anyone is speak to a bloody solicitor! That's like number one. Plus never move out of your home. Make them move. 

[Paninistickers]

There's a huge book I could write, but won't, on the dos & don'ts of splitting up.

 

I'm nearly three years in to a marriage breakdown. I'd say the following

 

1. Accept it's gonna take ages to get over.... Years....but still roll the dice and try to fix your life quicker. I tried to fix my life in the first few weeks. It didn't work but in a way they were an amazing few weeks & months.

 

2. Don't rush to get divorced. Splitting up kinda lessens the blow and the eventual divorce is far less traumatic. In fact, financially, we've done well not divorcing... Remortgaging the family home to buy another together so both of us live in decent gaffs.

 

3. I thought meeting someone else would solve it all. It doesn't! 

 

Finally, sounds odd, but try and enjoy the journey. It's a new life. I see it as a challenge to build a new one. Improvement is not linear....not all upwards and not all downwards. Get stuck in and go for it

 

 

 

 

[Bob Weasel Fox]

9 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

Does anyone have much experience with seeing their children after a split? It was touched on earlier in this thread, but I'd like to hear how people have worked it out with their ex's. 

My friends ex wife is refusing to allow him to have his children overnight, can she do this? 

Will a court grant him overnight access? There are no safety concerns and he has plenty of room for them, she just says he can only see them on Saturdays. 

I’ve been divorced before. I am on marriage number 2. I have 5 children, 3 from first marriage who whilst going through divorce prevented me from seeing the children Whenever it suited her and there was in truth the square root of fvck all I could do about it. The most painful years of my life and took me 5:6 different types of counselling and over a decade of shit to try and even begin to sort out. The 3 children are now adults and I only have a sort of relationship with one of them due to the poison and shit they were dripped with growing up. Suffice to say I have a very poor personal memory of this kind of thing. 

 

As others have said please tell your friend to get a decent solicitor and quickly. 

 

The truth of the matter is that whilst we as a country have made massive strides over the last few decades with equality and diversity generally there are many things that still need to massively improve. The most startling being that (generally) the man in a marriage gets treated like a second class dog in these sort of issues.

 

i wish your friend luck and hopefully his ex wife will grow up and be fair. I wouldn’t hold your breath though

[Bob Weasel Fox]

On 22/01/2019 at 14:27, Christoph said:

Your friend needs to speak to a solicitor. To be honest, reading this thread, the only real advise to anyone is speak to a bloody solicitor! That's like number one. Plus never move out of your home. Make them move. 

Sound advice  

[Alf Bentley]

On 22/01/2019 at 14:18, FoxesDeb said:

Does anyone have much experience with seeing their children after a split? It was touched on earlier in this thread, but I'd like to hear how people have worked it out with their ex's. 

My friends ex wife is refusing to allow him to have his children overnight, can she do this? 

Will a court grant him overnight access? There are no safety concerns and he has plenty of room for them, she just says he can only see them on Saturdays. 

 

On 22/01/2019 at 14:27, Christoph said:

Your friend needs to speak to a solicitor. To be honest, reading this thread, the only real advise to anyone is speak to a bloody solicitor! That's like number one. Plus never move out of your home. Make them move. 

 

I was separated 16 months ago, divorced 11 months ago. By agreement, my daughter (14) stays 2 weekday nights per week with me plus a full day (no overnight) at the weekend - plus the odd full week during summer.

 

This has worked smoothly most of the time. I have the odd flare-up with my ex, but that's usually about communications (and my resentment of her behaviour over the capital settlement), not about child access.

A few times there has been a problem where ex has had a row with daughter, who's then been difficult about her visit to me. So far, I've accepted that and have just visited daughter at ex's house (the old family home) in her absence.

Likewise, most liaising with ex over issues like schoolwork, disciplinary problems, holidays and extra-curricular stuff have gone smoothly.

 

However, it does sound as if your friend's split has been more hostile than ours, Deb. There was some hostility in our split (vicious arguments before split, issues over financial settlement) but we both wanted the divorce and knew it had been on the cards for a long time and neither of us suspected the other of infidelity. Likewise, we were both clear that it was in daughter's interests for us both to remain strongly involved in her upbringing....so a bit easier than your mate's scenario, I'd say.

 

As others have said, your mate clearly needs legal advice. Many solicitors will offer a half-hour of advice free - but he's likely to need a lot more than that and solicitors aren't cheap unless you can get legal aid.

I mentioned mediation before as a good first option, but that might not work for your mate if his ex is so hostile and likely to persist in trying to prevent overnight access - which a court is likely to give him if it goes that far.

 

Our situation was sorted out through mediation, then solicitors without ending up in court. But my understanding is that, unless your friend is a danger to children, then it's normal for courts to allow the non-resident parent to have their children overnight. All I read at the time suggested that courts normally allow a minimum of every second weekend plus 50% of school holidays, but the decision is always based on the child's needs. Whether or not your mate has been unfaithful wouldn't affect a court decision over child access, as I understand it. The only thing is that ending up in court is even more expensive than reaching agreement through solicitors - if mediation is impossible, then he should seek an agreement through solicitors (his ex's solicitor will presumably also tell her that court will cost a lot more and that she has little chance of preventing overnight access unless he's a proven danger to kids in some way (proven paedophile, substance abuser, irresponsible or whatever).

 

Re. Christoph's comments: "Speak to a solicitor" is good advice, as is "never move out of your home" (unless you have to) - but my understanding is that your mate has already moved out, Deb? I think "make them move" is only viable if you have sole ownership/tenancy of the home. If the home is jointly owned, my understanding is that the court will normally award it to the main carer of the children, usually (though not always) the mother. There will then be a capital settlement to compensate the departing parent for their financial loss (if feasible - or the home may need to be sold and funds split) and a maintenance settlement.