Free will or Determinism?

[ozleicester]

Why are there numbers on my posts when people quote me?  Now THAT'S one of lifes big questions

[Buce]

23 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Why are there numbers on my posts when people quote me?  Now THAT'S one of lifes big questions

 

I suspect it's from spell check/grammar software - when you run it, it doesn't just check what you are typing but also the post you are quoting; the number refers to the number of mistakes flagged.

[ozleicester]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I suspect it's from spell check/grammar software - when you run it, it doesn't just check what you are typing but also the post you are quoting; the number refers to the number of mistakes flagged.

 that doesnt help

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

 that doesnt help

 

 

I'll try again.

 

If the person quoting you is running software that checks spelling and/or grammar (my browser has an extension called 'Grammarly' for example), it also checks the post that's being quoted (although it doesn't seem to be consistent because it's not checking your quote in this post). The number that gets added to your quoted post is the number of errors that the software found in it. I suspect it's some kind of glitch because it doesn't always happen.

[Guest]

42

[Foxxed]

Vaguely off topic but The Foundation series by Issac Assimov deals with the idea of determinism. The premise of the books is that you can determine, not what individual people do, but what whole societies do, given you know enough about their history. They're good books especially if you don't mind loads of dialogue and enjoy books for the ideas in them. I enjoyed the original three books. He later did some prequels for loads of cash that are okay but not on par with the originals.

 

I think you could probably determine my actions if you know everything that has happened to me, how all of that affected me, and you also know the same about everything that will affect me in the future. If I'm as likely to read a magazine or a book normally but you also know I only slept 4 hours last night you probably know I'm more likely to read the magazine if it's an easier read. I'm not sure this takes away my free will.

[Drew Peacock]

I’m soon going to start reading ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins. He’s an evangelical atheist and comes across as a bit of an arrogant knob to me when I’ve heard him talk, but he does make some fair points when he speaks.

I don’t though like people who claim what they believe is absolute truth. There must be truth, but no one knows for sure what that absolute truth is. There can’t be a God and no God/s. There can’t be more than one correct theory of how the universe came into being. Something has to be absolutely true.

I’m not sure if I believe in a creator/God or not, but a little like @FoxesDeb I’d like to think there was something or someone to add meaning. But I acknowledge that there doesn’t necessarily have to be meaning.

One thing that does blow my mind though is how far away is the end of the universe? Because there has to be something beyond the end surely doesn’t there? 

So does that mean that the universe is eternal? If so the possibilities are endless. 

Another thing I struggle with is if you believe in something like The Big Bang, then where did the elements that caused that come from? Something can’t be created from nothing surely?

I await being put right by people far more intelligent than me. ?

Edited 8 August 2018 by Drew Peacock

[ozleicester]

28 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said:

I’m soon going to start reading ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins. He’s an evangelical atheist and comes across as a bit of an arrogant knob to me when I’ve heard him talk, but he does make some fair points when he speaks.

I don’t though like people who claim what they believe is absolute truth. There must be truth, but no one knows for sure what that absolute truth is. There can’t be a God and no God/s. There can’t be more than one correct theory of how the universe came into being. Something has to be absolutely true.

I’m not sure if I believe in a creator/God or not, but a little like @FoxesDeb I’d like to think there was something or someone to add meaning. But I acknowledge that there doesn’t necessarily have to be meaning.

One thing that does blow my mind though is how far away is the end of the universe? Because there has to be something beyond the end surely doesn’t there? 

So does that mean that the universe is eternal? If so the possibilities are endless. 

Another thing I struggle with is if you believe in something like The Big Bang, then where did the elements that caused that come from? Something can’t be created from nothing surely?

I await being put right by people far more intelligent than me. ?

 

First, the above is not me.

 

Second, I have read part of The God Delusion, Dawkins is an interesting writer, but it was a hard read for me. As has been mentioned here by many "Sapiens" is a fantastic book, also a long and in places a very dry read, but a stunning look at  "almost everything"

 

good luck with Dawkins

[Buce]

6 hours ago, Drew Peacock said:

I’m soon going to start reading ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins. He’s an evangelical atheist and comes across as a bit of an arrogant knob to me when I’ve heard him talk, but he does make some fair points when he speaks.

I don’t though like people who claim what they believe is absolute truth. There must be truth, but no one knows for sure what that absolute truth is. There can’t be a God and no God/s. There can’t be more than one correct theory of how the universe came into being. Something has to be absolutely true.

I’m not sure if I believe in a creator/God or not, but a little like @FoxesDeb I’d like to think there was something or someone to add meaning. But I acknowledge that there doesn’t necessarily have to be meaning.

One thing that does blow my mind though is how far away is the end of the universe? Because there has to be something beyond the end surely doesn’t there? 

So does that mean that the universe is eternal? If so the possibilities are endless. 

Another thing I struggle with is if you believe in something like The Big Bang, then where did the elements that caused that come from? Something can’t be created from nothing surely?

I await being put right by people far more intelligent than me. ?

 

3

 

There are only two possibilities - either the Universe was created from nothing or it has always existed.

 

Both equally mind-blowing.

[Benguin]

7 hours ago, Drew Peacock said:

I’m soon going to start reading ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins. He’s an evangelical atheist and comes across as a bit of an arrogant knob to me when I’ve heard him talk, but he does make some fair points when he speaks.

I don’t though like people who claim what they believe is absolute truth. There must be truth, but no one knows for sure what that absolute truth is. There can’t be a God and no God/s. There can’t be more than one correct theory of how the universe came into being. Something has to be absolutely true.

I’m not sure if I believe in a creator/God or not, but a little like @FoxesDeb I’d like to think there was something or someone to add meaning. But I acknowledge that there doesn’t necessarily have to be meaning.

One thing that does blow my mind though is how far away is the end of the universe? Because there has to be something beyond the end surely doesn’t there? 

So does that mean that the universe is eternal? If so the possibilities are endless. 

Another thing I struggle with is if you believe in something like The Big Bang, then where did the elements that caused that come from? Something can’t be created from nothing surely?

I await being put right by people far more intelligent than me. ?

 

How do you know that to be true?

[Benguin]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

There are only two possibilities - either the Universe was created from nothing or it has always existed.

 

Both equally mind-blowing.

I might be wrong but I always had you down as a big science type. It’s comminly accepted that the universe had an absolute beginning. Do you mean instead that either something came from nothing or universes pop into being then pop out then pop back in a loop? 

[Drew Peacock]

9 minutes ago, Benguin said:

How do you know that to be true?

Do you mean all of what I wrote or which bit?

But you make a fair point. I don’t. ?‍♂️ 

Although doesn’t there have to be absolute truth? Something must be true.

Edited 9 August 2018 by Drew Peacock

[Benguin]

Just now, Drew Peacock said:

Do you mean all of what I wrote or which bit?

But you make a fair point. I don’t. ?‍♂️

Truth belongs to god. Without god you can only have illusory truth’s 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Benguin said:

I might be wrong but I always had you down as a big science type. It’s comminly accepted that the universe had an absolute beginning. Do you mean instead that either something came from nothing or universes pop into being then pop out then pop back in a loop? 

 

Yes, the Universe had an absolute beginning - what we don't know, and can never know, is what preceded the 'Big Bang'. It's a simple application of logic that we either accept that the matter that makes up the Universe was created from nothing or that that matter always existed. There is no logical alternative.

[Drew Peacock]

1 minute ago, Benguin said:

Truth belongs to god. Without god you can only have illusory truth’s 

But equally how can you claim 100% that God exists? I’d like to believe he/it does but does anybody know for certain?

[Guest the fox]

Here is what I think. God gave me free will and mind to do as I like. I can be a good person or a bad one but my fate is already sealed even before I was born based on my future choices. 

 

 

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Yes, the Universe had an absolute beginning - what we don't know, and can never know, is what preceded the 'Big Bang'. It's a simple application of logic that we either accept that the matter that makes up the Universe was created from nothing or that that matter always existed. There is no logical alternative.

Ok great I wasn’t sure.

 

for me the only logical conclusion here is god. The Big Bang caused space and time so whatever caused it is without space and time. Sounds a lot like god right?

[Drew Peacock]

2 minutes ago, the fox said:

Here is what I think. God gave me free will and mind to do as I like. I can be a good person or a bad one but my fate is already sealed even before I was born based on my future choices. 

 

 

Pre-destination is an interesting concept. 

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Drew Peacock said:

But equally how can you claim 100% that God exists? I’d like to believe he/it does but does anybody know for certain?

That’s the point, only with god can you be certain. Otherwise I could say the universe popped into being last Thursday and you came with all the memories you have, despite how ludicrous it sounds you can’t be certain it’s not true.

 

To know something you have to know everything. I know I have hair because I can see it. I can see it because I own a mirror. I have a mirror because I remember buying it etc etc. To know A you have to know b, to know B you have to know C and this doesn’t stop at Z it is infinite.

 

whonhas infinite knowledge? God

[Benguin]

5 minutes ago, the fox said:

Here is what I think. God gave me free will and mind to do as I like. I can be a good person or a bad one but my fate is already sealed even before I was born based on my future choices. 

 

 

Not sealed no. God knows the outcome but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t change it.

 

think of it like watching Leicester vs man united 5-3 to us. We know how it ended but the players had free will still.

[ozleicester]

There in no truth.. only opinion

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

There in no truth.. only opinion

At least you’re honest. Without God you cannot claim to know anything.

[Drew Peacock]

6 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

There in no truth.. only opinion

 I agree we can’t be as arrogant as to claim our opinion is truth, when no one can be certain. But doesn’t there have to be absolute truth? The universe was created somehow. There is one absolute as to how it happened that has to be correct.

Edited 9 August 2018 by Drew Peacock

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Ok great I wasn’t sure.

 

for me the only logical conclusion here is god. The Big Bang caused space and time so whatever caused it is without space and time. Sounds a lot like god right?

 

But if we accept the concept of intelligent design ('God' for want of a better word) it still leaves us with the same logical conundrum: either 'God' was Himself created (which just pushes the question back - who/what created the creator of the Creator) or 'God' always existed - again, the only logical conclusion. And if we accept either premise, it is no less likely that there is no 'God'.

 

A belief in 'God' isn't supported by logic and thus can only ever be an article of faith.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Ok great I wasn’t sure.

 

for me the only logical conclusion here is god. The Big Bang caused space and time so whatever caused it is without space and time. Sounds a lot like god right?

A singular quantum event or the collapse of an already existing universe (though in that case the infinity argument still applies) are two equally plausible theories off the top of my head.

 

FWIW I don't think the question means that much as it could be any cause at all and it wouldn't affect humanity directly, because even though the idea of a non interventionist god causing the Big Bang is reasonable, the idea of one intervening in human life in a way we can comprehend or understand certainly is not IMO.