Free will or Determinism?

[ozleicester]

Where do you stand or sit, do you decide your life..or is it already determined?

[davieG]

Hang on I'll need to ask MrsG.

[Vacamion]

 

There is no fate but what we make.

[Guest]

determinism - but not by some divine body.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Vacamion said:

 

There is no fate but what we make.

 

We do what we do because of what has been done.

[Mark_w]

Free will for the good things I do, determinism for the bad.

[Vacamion]

 

There is no God.

Or Gods. Or Goddesses.

There are no Ghosts.

Fairies are fiction.

Astrology, astral planes and the like are used to dupe people.

There are only the human approximations and models of reality which we call “science”.

When you die, you rot. You end. There’s no second chance.

There’s no grand plan.

Its all chaos.

A cruel, empty, soulless void.

Given all the above, you’ve just gotta work your own shit out as best you can.

Have a great Friday.

Up the City.

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

There is no fate but what we make.

 

1 minute ago, Vacamion said:

 

There is no God.

Or Gods. Or Goddesses.

There are no Ghosts.

Fairies are fiction.

Astrology, astral planes and the like are used to dupe people.

There are only the human approximations and models of reality which we call “science”.

When you die, you rot. You end. There’s no second chance.

There’s no grand plan.

Its all chaos.

A cruel, empty, soulless void.

Given all the above, you’ve just gotta work your own shit out as best you can.

Have a great Friday.

Up the City.

 

 

 

This 'n' this. (Unless you believe a deity to be indistinguishable from what we'd call nature at which point drawing attention to such a being is irrelevant anyway.)

 

The more people realise this and work to make the world we're in now better for themselves and for other people, the better world we'll have.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

There is no God.

Or Gods. Or Goddesses.

There are no Ghosts.

Fairies are fiction.

Astrology, astral planes and the like are used to dupe people.

There are only the human approximations and models of reality which we call “science”.

When you die, you rot. You end. There’s no second chance.

There’s no grand plan.

Its all chaos.

A cruel, empty, soulless void.

Given all the above, you’ve just gotta work your own shit out as best you can.

Have a great Friday.

Up the City.

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

This 'n' this. (Unless you believe a deity to be indistinguishable from what we'd call nature at which point drawing attention to such a being is irrelevant anyway.)

 

The more people realise this and work to make the world we're in now better for themselves and for other people, the better world we'll have.

But determinism doesn't need a god. Science shows us that every action has a reaction. that's life. The choices we make are already decided by history and our gentic makeup. they are not Free.

 

I push a ball it rolls for a while, it moves things in it's way.

 

I decide to have a kid because my gentic make-up told me too - or someone else's told them too.

 

 

[Carl the Llama]

A bit from column a and a bit from column b.

 

For the most part we have little control over reality but we're not rudderless ships either.  For better or worse we can use our decision making faculties to effect course corrections here and there, but I would say that overall luck and fate play a greater role in determining our life journeys than our own actions however much you might want to believe otherwise.

[ozleicester]

18 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

There is no God.

Or Gods. Or Goddesses.

There are no Ghosts.

Fairies are fiction.

Astrology, astral planes and the like are used to dupe people.

There are only the human approximations and models of reality which we call “science”.

When you die, you rot. You end. There’s no second chance.

There’s no grand plan.

Its all chaos.

A cruel, empty, soulless void.

Given all the above, you’ve just gotta work your own shit out as best you can.

Have a great Friday.

Up the City.

 

 

 

To be fair, determinism isnt just "god"... it includes causal determinism eg what has happened causes what will happen

 

oops sorry,  Fif already explained that

Edited 3 August 2018 by ozleicester

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

But determinism doesn't need a god. Science shows us that every action has a reaction. that's life. The choices we make are already decided by history and our gentic makeup. they are not Free.

 

I push a ball it rolls for a while, it moves things in it's way.

 

I decide to have a kid because my gentic make-up told me too - or someone else's told them too.

 

 

You're right, it doesn't - I'm not saying that it does, just that the question itself isn't really relevant unless you believe in the idea that humans are somehow a "chosen species", which is poppycock.

 

An addenum here though - pretty much all quantum activity is governed by luck/chance, and quantum activity governs a lot of macroscopic activity, so I wouldn't say it's all entirely deterministic.

[Vacamion]

58 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

But determinism doesn't need a god. Science shows us that every action has a reaction. that's life. The choices we make are already decided by history and our gentic makeup. they are not Free.

 

I push a ball it rolls for a while, it moves things in it's way.

 

I decide to have a kid because my gentic make-up told me too - or someone else's told them too.

 

 

 

 

The will to eat energy-laden food or to have sex, because your genes compel you to, might very well be genetically programmed, but the decision to act on those impulses or not is dependent upon one’s own free will.

 

Without willpower, modern society would just be full of obese sex maniacs.

 

Oh, wait, well, maybe we don’t have free will, then, after all... 

[Vacamion]

1 hour ago, Carl the Llama said:

A bit from column a and a bit from column b.

 

For the most part we have little control over reality but we're not rudderless ships either.  For better or worse we can use our decision making faculties to effect course corrections here and there, but I would say that overall luck and fate play a greater role in determining our life journeys than our own actions however much you might want to believe otherwise.

 

Are these “blind luck” and the fate of pure chance, or are you suggesting these are directed by some controlling force or power?

 

I can totally believe in “shit happens” being a massive influence on people’s lives, but I struggle accept there’s a plan or predestined outcome.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

 

The will to eat energy-laden food or to have sex, because your genes compel you to, might very well be genetically programmed, but the decision to act on those impulses or not is dependent upon one’s own free will.

 

Without willpower, modern society would just be full of obese sex maniacs.

 

Oh, wait, well, maybe we don’t have free will, then, after all... 

 

I don't believe it is.

 

Our level of will power or self control is governed by the gentics of our fathers and our father's fathers etc... just like the strength of a bag handle is governed by how it was made. More relatedly we choose the actions that we make because of past actions by us or others. 

 

To all extents free will is free when seen within the limit of everything that went before it.

 

I'm choosing to write this through "free will" but that free will has been created by my actions and thoughts in the past as well as by actions and thoughts of others in the past. For example, had you not written your reply I would not have written this reply, it wasn't a free choice to reply on my part it was a reaction to a precedent action. Cause and effect.

 

You made me.

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

Depends how drunk I am

 

Was Free Willy deterministic?

[Carl the Llama]

2 hours ago, Vacamion said:

 

Are these “blind luck” and the fate of pure chance, or are you suggesting these are directed by some controlling force or power?

 

I can totally believe in “shit happens” being a massive influence on people’s lives, but I struggle accept there’s a plan or predestined outcome.

Controlling force, I'm not sure but I wouldn't rule it out altogether.  But for me there's no doubt that large portions of our daily lives are dictated by predetermined responses to external stimuli.  Nor do I doubt that we each possess the capacity to manipulate those responses with enough focus and drive (but again you could argue that in itself is deterministic, dependent on whether your genetic code produces those qualities).

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, FIF said:

 

I don't believe it is.

 

Our level of will power or self control is governed by the gentics of our fathers and our father's fathers etc... just like the strength of a bag handle is governed by how it was made. More relatedly we choose the actions that we make because of past actions by us or others. 

 

To all extents free will is free when seen within the limit of everything that went before it.

 

I'm choosing to write this through "free will" but that free will has been created by my actions and thoughts in the past as well as by actions and thoughts of others in the past. For example, had you not written your reply I would not have written this reply, it wasn't a free choice to reply on my part it was a reaction to a precedent action. Cause and effect.

 

You made me.

 

 

I'm pretty close to this and voted determinism. But I'd extend the determining factors to personal experiences and circumstances, as well as genetics and the thoughts/actions of self and others.

I'd also see the delusion of free will as important and necessary. If we ever fully experienced the knowledge of our lack of free will, we'd probably go completely insane (itself a determined outcome, of course).

 

If I'd not got to know certain friends, had not got particular jobs or had particular experiences, I'd be a slightly different person today.

 

If my ex-wife had visited a mutual friend in Salford on a different weekend in 1995, I'd almost certainly have never met her. Among other things, I'd have probably never moved to the Midlands, become an LCFC fan and posted on Foxes Talk. 

The deterministic chain can be extended: two years earlier, if a mate of mine hadn't stitched me up and booked a stall without telling me, I'd have probably never met that mutual friend, never mind my ex-wife.

 

If my great-uncle had not opted to continue with a bar job in New York in 1910, neither my father nor me nor hundreds of other people would ever have existed. The family was offered some land back in Ireland and my great-uncle had first refusal.

He was recently married with a young baby and was working as a barman in NY. He chose to stay put, my grandfather (his brother) returned to Ireland instead, married my grandmother and we all came into existence....

By all accounts, my great-uncle was an outgoing, gregarious bloke (and a bit of a lady's man, apparently). So his genes and experience may have determined his decision. If he'd been an introverted, homesick chap, maybe he'd have still been a bachelor and would have jumped at the opportunity to return to the homeland?

 

Even more extreme: if someone had chanced to nudge the elbow of Gavrilo Princip as he went to shoot Archduke Franz Ferdinand in 1914, would that not have determined a different outcome for the whole of 20th century history and the nature of the world we live in today? 

 

[ajthefox]

3 hours ago, FIF said:

 

I don't believe it is.

 

Our level of will power or self control is governed by the gentics of our fathers and our father's fathers etc... just like the strength of a bag handle is governed by how it was made. More relatedly we choose the actions that we make because of past actions by us or others. 

 

To all extents free will is free when seen within the limit of everything that went before it.

 

I'm choosing to write this through "free will" but that free will has been created by my actions and thoughts in the past as well as by actions and thoughts of others in the past. For example, had you not written your reply I would not have written this reply, it wasn't a free choice to reply on my part it was a reaction to a precedent action. Cause and effect.

 

You made me.

You didn't have to reply.

[Benguin]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

 

This 'n' this. (Unless you believe a deity to be indistinguishable from what we'd call nature at which point drawing attention to such a being is irrelevant anyway.)

 

The more people realise this and work to make the world we're in now better for themselves and for other people, the better world we'll have.

Why? If there is no god what does it matter?

[Benguin]

God is eternal so knows the past, present and future but that doesn’t mean there is not free will.

[Buce]

3 minutes ago, Benguin said:

God is eternal so knows the past, present and future but that doesn’t mean there is not free will.

 

Says who?

[Benguin]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Says who?

Me

[Buce]

Just now, Benguin said:

Me

 

Are you going to back up your assertion with any evidence?

[Benguin]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Are you going to back up your assertion with any evidence?

If god exists he is by definition eternal hence all knowing, all powerful, all loving.

 

are you asking for proof that god exists?