Free will or Determinism?

[Izzy]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Does there really have to be something afterwards that relies on what we do in this life? Is the reward we gain in this life and the work we do to guarantee the future (if you are into that kind of thing) not enough?

 

I guess that isn't enough for some folks, and honestly, I think that's one of the main reasons why religion exists.

I think you're probably right there.

 

I've no idea why I or others believe in an afterlife - I just do.

 

I know many think we just die 'and that's it' but I for one find the idea of an afterlife comforting and therefore I'm not scared of dying because I believe my soul will go onto something else (maybe even better than this life!) 

 

Who knows though? We'll never have proof either way..

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think you're probably right there.

 

I've no idea why I or others believe in an afterlife - I just do.

 

I know many think we just die 'and that's it' but I for one find the idea of an afterlife comforting and therefore I'm not scared of dying because I believe my soul will go onto something else (maybe even better than this life!) 

 

Who knows though? We'll never have proof either way..

1

 

You will if you're right, and you'll never know if you're wrong.

[Izzy]

23 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

It's the standard response to someone who uses the 'someone must have made it' argument, and the standard response to that is, 'Nobody made God, God is eternal'.

 

Which is all well and good if that's what they believe, but if they can accept that God is eternal and didn't require a creator, why can't they accept that the universe might be eternal and didn't require a creator? It defies logic.

 

Because we'll never know, I'm happy to accept that the universe might be eternal, but choose to believe that there was a creator instead.

 

I think it's O.K. to accept both are possible and then make a choice depending on whatever you happen to believe.

 

If people are firmly in either camp and not prepared to entertain that the other option might be a possibility, then that's their prerogative I guess..

[Benguin]

1 hour ago, CollinsLCFC said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I have respect for all beliefs, but I find religion and atheism fascinating.

 

You mention that God is the best explanation for the something from nothing arguement, but then this just falls back on the old arguement of, who created the creator?

 

Also, what makes the God you believe in, the right God? There are a vast amount of religions with different Gods. If there truly was one God, wouldn't there be more evidence oppose to multiple faiths and beliefs?

I have two things to say on this:

 

1. The circular argument can be used against theism or atheism. You could say what caused the thing that isn’t god that caused the Big Bang. 

 

2. God, by definition, doesn’t need a creator. The universe is expanding, we know this due to some remarkable scientific studies. That means the universe had an absolute beginning hence the Big Bang. We know that the Big Bang creates space and time, so whatever caused it is something devoid of space and time. The atheist belief is that we don’t know what that is, my belief is that it’s god. Given that the cause is devoid of time, it follows that the cause is eternal hence uncaused.

 

my belief in the Christian god is a culmination of historical facts surrounding Jesus, faith and experience.

 

 

[Benguin]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

You will if you're right, and you'll never know if you're wrong.

You can know now, listen and you’ll hear Jesus knocking at the door.

[Captain...]

Really it doesn’t matter and isn’t really worth worrying about too much. What does need considering is that if you do something you have to deal with the consequences it doesn’t matter if it was free will or determinism or primal urges or religious dogma that made you do it, you just need to accept what you have done and live with the consequences.

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I have two things to say on this:

 

1. The circular argument can be used against theism or atheism. You could say what caused the thing that isn’t god that caused the Big Bang. 

 

2. God, by definition, doesn’t need a creator. The universe is expanding, we know this due to some remarkable scientific studies. That means the universe had an absolute beginning hence the Big Bang. We know that the Big Bang creates space and time, so whatever caused it is something devoid of space and time. The atheist belief is that we don’t know what that is, my belief is that it’s god. Given that the cause is devoid of time, it follows that the cause is eternal hence uncaused.

 

my belief in the Christian god is a culmination of historical facts surrounding Jesus, faith and experience.

 

2

 

If you are using 'God' as a synonym for intelligent design, then I agree that it is no more or less likely than non-intelligent design, since we cannot ever know what preceded the 'Big Bang', but I'm not going to get into a discussion about the Christian idea of God because the only way that discussion can go involves trashing your beliefs (which are really just a matter of faith) and that is disrespectful and unlikely to end well.

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Really it doesn’t matter and isn’t really worth worrying about too much. What does need considering is that if you do something you have to deal with the consequences it doesn’t matter if it was free will or determinism or primal urges or religious dogma that made you do it, you just need to accept what you have done and live with the consequences.

 

If you have sufficient power or wealth, you don't necessarily have to accept what you've done and live with the consequences - unless you feel yourself to be under a moral imperative to do so, which many people don't. 

 

I quite agree that it's not worth worrying about, though. All part of the great cosmic joke of life.

(Not a deadly serious contribution, in case that's unclear!)

[Benguin]

Just now, Buce said:

 

If you are using 'God' as a synonym for intelligent design, then I agree that it is no more or less likely than non-intelligent design, since we cannot ever know what preceded the 'Big Bang', but I'm not going to get into a discussion about the Christian idea of God because the only way that discussion can go involves trashing your beliefs (which are really just a matter of faith) and that is disrespectful and unlikely to end well.

I’ve trashed Christians beliefs for years, I was part of a secular society at uni basically trolling the Christian union. There is nothing you could say to me about my faith that I haven’t said to a Christian in my atheist days and furthermore challenging faith is healthy. What I wouldn’t do is put god on trial, which is why I’m passive in this debate. All it took for me to find God was engagement in the topic so that is all I would ever seek to do rather than evangelism.

[Izzy]

Just now, Benguin said:

I’ve trashed Christians beliefs for years, I was part of a secular society at uni basically trolling the Christian union. There is nothing you could say to me about my faith that I haven’t said to a Christian in my atheist days and furthermore challenging faith is healthy. What I wouldn’t do is put god on trial, which is why I’m passive in this debate. All it took for me to find God was engagement in the topic so that is all I would ever seek to do rather than evangelism.

I think it's pretty cool you can find God and still be browsing Rachael's knicker draw tbh 

[SpacedX]

20 minutes ago, Benguin said:

my belief in the Christian god is a culmination of historical facts surrounding Jesus, faith and experience.

With all due respect, your enjoyment of conspiracy theories is similarly predicated upon emotion, anecdote and belief.

[Benguin]

6 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

If you are using 'God' as a synonym for intelligent design, then I agree that it is no more or less likely than non-intelligent design, since we cannot ever know what preceded the 'Big Bang', but I'm not going to get into a discussion about the Christian idea of God because the only way that discussion can go involves trashing your beliefs (which are really just a matter of faith) and that is disrespectful and unlikely to end well.

In fact I think there is a thread in here from a couple of years ago where that is what I do to a Christian. 

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think it's pretty cool you can find God and still be browsing Rachael's knicker draw tbh 

Man is a sinner, god knows this  

[Benguin]

1 minute ago, Line-X said:

With all due respect, your enjoyment of conspiracy theories is similarly predicated upon emotion, anecdote and belief.

Ahh the difference is when we had this discussion I explicitly said two or three times that I enjoyed as I would a fictional movie and found no truth in such things.

[SpacedX]

Just now, Benguin said:

Ahh the difference is when we had this discussion I explicitly said two or three times that I enjoyed as I would a fictional movie and found no truth in such things.

Fair enough. I think our discussion also touched upon the potential danger of such beliefs. 

[Buce]

7 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I’ve trashed Christians beliefs for years, I was part of a secular society at uni basically trolling the Christian union. There is nothing you could say to me about my faith that I haven’t said to a Christian in my atheist days and furthermore challenging faith is healthy. What I wouldn’t do is put god on trial, which is why I’m passive in this debate. All it took for me to find God was engagement in the topic so that is all I would ever seek to do rather than evangelism.

 

5 minutes ago, Benguin said:

In fact I think there is a thread in here from a couple of years ago where that is what I do to a Christian. 

 

Then you are already familiar with the arguments.

[Benguin]

Just now, Buce said:

 

 

Then you are already familiar with the arguments.

Yet still I found him

[Benguin]

3 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Fair enough. I think our discussion also touched upon the potential danger of such beliefs. 

Of course. I would agree there are dangers but I can’t deny something I feel so sure is true and even if I could my life has drastically improved with God, so why should I doubt.

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

Why does there need to be a point?

 

Just asking that question implies that we are somehow special when in reality we are just one organism among millions.

 

 

Where did I say that I think we are somehow special? All I said was that for me, I have to believe in something else. I like to think that God exists, and I try to live my life in such a way that I think he would approve. It doesn't mean I think the human race is special, after all, we are all God's creation.... 

[FoxesDeb]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Does there really have to be something afterwards that relies on what we do in this life? Is the reward we gain in this life and the work we do to guarantee the future (if you are into that kind of thing) not enough?

 

I guess that isn't enough for some folks, and honestly, I think that's one of the main reasons why religion exists.

Yes I think there has to be something else, and like you say it's probably the reason I believe in God. I really struggle with the idea that this life on earth is all there is. 

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Said the Daily Mail reader

Mail on Sunday.

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Yes I think there has to be something else, and like you say it's probably the reason I believe in God. I really struggle with the idea that this life on earth is all there is. 

See you in heaven Deb. We'll have a great party 

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Where did I say that I think we are somehow special? All I said was that for me, I have to believe in something else. I like to think that God exists, and I try to live my life in such a way that I think he would approve. It doesn't mean I think the human race is special, after all, we are all God's creation.... 

 

Fair enough.

 

There's certainly nothing wrong with living your life in a good way, whether it be to please your God or just because it's the right thing to do.

[Alf Bentley]

35 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I think it's pretty cool you can find God and still be browsing Rachael's knicker draw tbh 

 

33 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Man is a sinner, god knows this  

 

Yes, but I thought God wanted Man to repent, confess and refrain from further sinning - not just to carry on sniffing in the knicker drawer as before?

 

Anyway, I'm disappointed to hear that it was God who began the Benguin. I always thought it was Julio Iglesias?

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

See you in heaven Deb. We'll have a great party 

Remember though, Hell has all the best musicians.