Free will or Determinism?

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Benguin said:

If god exists he is by definition eternal hence all knowing, all powerful, all loving.

 

are you asking for proof that god exists? 

 

No, no agenda.

 

I'm just interested in what makes you so sure he does.

[Benguin]

Just now, Buce said:

 

No, no agenda.

 

I'm just interested in what makes you so sure he does.

Fair enough, I believe god exists for three reasons. 1. because I find god to be the best explanation for why something came from nothing. 2. Because I know god to exist in my heart. 3. Because truth and meaning can’t be known without god only illusory truths and meanings and I find this worldview unfathomable.

 

please note I was a devout atheist until about a year ago and have only in the past few months accepted Jesus as the truth. Therefore I know what it’s like to be an atheist, the questions atheists have about blatant errors in logic and evidence etc.

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

23 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Why? If there is no god what does it matter?

Because the more we work in that way the longer we'll survive IMO - and at the end of the day, that is the base objective for any species, humans not excepted IMO.

 

Just now, Benguin said:

Fair enough, I believe god exists for three reasons. 1. because I find god to be the best explanation for why something came from nothing. 2. Because I know god to exist in my heart. 3. Because truth and meaning can’t be known without god only illusory truths and meanings and I find this worldview unfathomable.

 

please note I was a devout atheist until about a year ago and have only in the past few months accepted Jesus as the truth. Therefore I know what it’s like to be an atheist, the questions atheists have about blatant errors in logic and evidence etc.

 

 

2

Fair enough. Personally, I find chance to be an equally plausible explanation as to why the world exists as it is rather than some plan by a divine entity that allows for arguments of essentialism, though some might argue they could be one and the same.

 

I think I've said this before, but how is it possible to know what a deity would intend wrt anything, including truth and meaning? If we did, we'd be deities ourselves, right?

[SouthStandUpperTier]

As the great Irish philosopher Ronan Keating once said, "Life is a rollercoaster, just gotta ride it.".

[Mike Oxlong]

Pretty sure it’s not my fault that I’ve just stuffed my fizzog with a large piece of caramel shortcake 

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Because the more we work in that way the longer we'll survive IMO - and at the end of the day, that is the base objective for any species, humans not excepted IMO.

 

Fair enough. Personally, I find chance to be an equally plausible explanation as to why the world exists as it is rather than some plan by a divine entity that allows for arguments of essentialism, though some might argue they could be one and the same.

 

I think I've said this before, but how is it possible to know what a deity would intend wrt anything, including truth and meaning? If we did, we'd be deities ourselves, right?

See when I was an atheist I was a nihilist because I couldn’t see any logical reason to care about anything but myself and my family, other than for the purposes of avoiding social stigma/punishment. I think the main reason I felt this without belief in God is because i wasn’t able to distinguish what benefit surviving or living in a way to prolong the human race  was. 

 

I don’t know God’s intentions but I think I know truths and meaning and this is illogical without god other than illusory truths and meanings. To know anything you have to know everything and that’s not possible without god. IMO

[Sharpe's Fox]

Hey you guys know what I have faith in? The working class. Let’s go out there and do it for them.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Benguin said:

See when I was an atheist I was a nihilist because I couldn’t see any logical reason to care about anything but myself and my family, other than for the purposes of avoiding social stigma/punishment. I think the main reason I felt this without belief in God is because i wasn’t able to distinguish what benefit surviving or living in a way to prolong the human race  was. 

 

I don’t know God’s intentions but I think I know truths and meaning and this is illogical without god other than illusory truths and meanings. To know anything you have to know everything and that’s not possible without god. IMO

Fair enough, you found your raison d'être.

[Buce]

26 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Fair enough, I believe god exists for three reasons. 1. because I find god to be the best explanation for why something came from nothing. 2. Because I know god to exist in my heart. 3. Because truth and meaning can’t be known without god only illusory truths and meanings and I find this worldview unfathomable.

 

please note I was a devout atheist until about a year ago and have only in the past few months accepted Jesus as the truth. Therefore I know what it’s like to be an atheist, the questions atheists have about blatant errors in logic and evidence etc.

 

 

 

 

Do you mind if I ask what denomination you are?

[Benguin]

4 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Do you mind if I ask what denomination you are?

Currently attending a Methodist church but being honest this is for convenience and due to a lack of knowledge. 

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

Hey you guys know what I have faith in? The working class. Let’s go out there and do it for them.

Amen brother.

[Sampson]

Maybe I'm being an idiot but I just can't see the argument for free will.

 

Determinism seems like the only possible answer to me.

 

Obviously not fate by a God or anything but our brains are made of molecules just like anything else.

 

Quantum mechanics - the most mathematically verified theory of the universe humans have ever come up with has proven without a shadow of a doubt that the spin of molecules is entirely random 

 

How would humans have any control over the nature of the universe or of our own brain patterns? 

 

Every conscious thought we have is just a neurological reaction based random spins of molecules and no thought we have can surely be anything other than a neurological reaction based on our DNA and a lifetime of outside stimuli, be they other people, our environment etc. 

 

If say, you could rewind time 3 seconds and replay and scene or thought, I don't see how it could possibly be anything other than the one you made 3 seconds ago.

 

I don't know, someone can tell me I'm wrong but the idea that any human has the free will to consciously change their thoughts and their thoughts are anything other than just a result of random rolls of the dice at the quantum level and us having free choice to constantly override them just strikes me as being completely illogical based on the quantum mechanics and the proof of random spin which is less likely to be disproven than the Earth being round by this point.

 

As far as i can see, an all-seing God makes no sense to me (a creator may exist but it makes no sense they would create a random universe then decide whether we get into utopia based on our randomly determined actions or not) and free will makes even less sense to me. The only answer that makes sense to me at least is that universe is just random and aimless and that we can have absolutely no control within that and our lives are solely determined by the random spins of quarks.

Edited 3 August 2018 by Sampson

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Maybe I'm being an idiot but I just can't see the argument for free will.

 

Determinism seems like the only possible answer to me.

 

Obviously not fate by a God or anything but our brains are made of molecules just like anything else.

 

Quantum mechanics - the most mathematically verified theory of the universe humans have ever come up with has proven without a shadow of a doubt that the spin of molecules is entirely random 

 

How would humans have any control over the nature of the universe or of our own brain patterns? 

 

Every conscious thought we have is just a neurological reaction based random spins of molecules and no thought we have can surely be anything other than a neurological reaction based on our DNA and a lifetime of outside stimuli, be they other people, our environment etc. 

 

If say, you could rewind time 3 seconds and replay and scene or thought, I don't see how it could possibly be anything other than the one you made 3 seconds ago.

 

I don't know, someone can tell me I'm wrong but the idea that any human has the free will to consciously change their thoughts and their thoughts are anything other than just a result of random rolls of the dice at the quantum level and us having free choice to constantly override them just strikes me as being completely illogical based on the quantum mechanics and the proof of random spin which is less likely to be disproven than the Earth being round by this point.

 

As far as i can see, an all-seing God makes no sense to me (a creator may exist but it makes no sense they would create a random universe then decide whether we get into utopia based on our randomly determined actions or not) and free will makes even less sense to me. The only answer that makes sense to me at least is that universe is just random and aimless and that we can have absolutely no control within that and our lives are solely determined by the random spins of quarks.

 

2

Roughly agreed, but two things:

 

- though quantum mechanics has proven the actions of various items at subatomic level are random there is still an element of uncertainty to that proof, as there is to every proof as a result - so we can't really be sure

 

- as Alf mentioned earlier people believing in free will is, like having to overlook the idea that all human knowledge is subjective, useful in itself for the functioning of a society as without it people would be paralysed by their sense of meaninglessness.

[Izzy]

24 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Maybe I'm being an idiot but I just can't see the argument for free will.

 

Determinism seems like the only possible answer to me.

 

Obviously not fate by a God or anything but our brains are made of molecules just like anything else.

 

Quantum mechanics - the most mathematically verified theory of the universe humans have ever come up with has proven without a shadow of a doubt that the spin of molecules is entirely random 

 

How would humans have any control over the nature of the universe or of our own brain patterns? 

 

Every conscious thought we have is just a neurological reaction based random spins of molecules and no thought we have can surely be anything other than a neurological reaction based on our DNA and a lifetime of outside stimuli, be they other people, our environment etc. 

 

If say, you could rewind time 3 seconds and replay and scene or thought, I don't see how it could possibly be anything other than the one you made 3 seconds ago.

 

I don't know, someone can tell me I'm wrong but the idea that any human has the free will to consciously change their thoughts and their thoughts are anything other than just a result of random rolls of the dice at the quantum level and us having free choice to constantly override them just strikes me as being completely illogical based on the quantum mechanics and the proof of random spin which is less likely to be disproven than the Earth being round by this point.

 

As far as i can see, an all-seing God makes no sense to me (a creator may exist but it makes no sense they would create a random universe then decide whether we get into utopia based on our randomly determined actions or not) and free will makes even less sense to me. The only answer that makes sense to me at least is that universe is just random and aimless and that we can have absolutely no control within that and our lives are solely determined by the random spins of quarks.

 

I'm struggling to understand at what level we're talking about Free Will vs Determinism

 

I agree we have no control whatsoever over the 40,000 random thoughts that appear in our head every day. I do think however that we can choose what we consciously decide to focus on which is driven mainly by our environment/situation at the time. So we do have free will to act in the moment and make conscious choices based on our values/beliefs and human needs - yes.

 

Where I do believe in determinism is regarding the bigger things in life (for want of a better word). I believe our/my life is pretty much decided at a macro level beforehand, e.g. I was always going to get ill, get married, have two kids and do the job I do. 

 

Where religion fits into all this I've no idea. My family are Christians and I attend church but I've come to believe that 'we are all god'. I don't pray to a god/person/deity any more but more to myself and my inner wisdom to guide me. In saying that, I do believe in some sort of 'creator' and can't get my head around all the beauty on the earth including animal, plants etc. just randomly appearing out of nowhere - someone/something must have created them.

 

I also agree in heaven/hell or some sort of afterlife and that if we do/are good in this life we'll be rewarded in the next - or visa versa.

 

So basically I'm all confused and fvcked up about everything 

 

Do I win the award for most contradictory post of the year?

 

[CollinsLCFC]

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

Fair enough, I believe god exists for three reasons. 1. because I find god to be the best explanation for why something came from nothing. 2. Because I know god to exist in my heart. 3. Because truth and meaning can’t be known without god only illusory truths and meanings and I find this worldview unfathomable.

 

please note I was a devout atheist until about a year ago and have only in the past few months accepted Jesus as the truth. Therefore I know what it’s like to be an atheist, the questions atheists have about blatant errors in logic and evidence etc.

 

 

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I have respect for all beliefs, but I find religion and atheism fascinating.

 

You mention that God is the best explanation for the something from nothing arguement, but then this just falls back on the old arguement of, who created the creator?

 

Also, what makes the God you believe in, the right God? There are a vast amount of religions with different Gods. If there truly was one God, wouldn't there be more evidence oppose to multiple faiths and beliefs?

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, CollinsLCFC said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I have respect for all beliefs, but I find religion and atheism fascinating.

 

You mention that God is the best explanation for the something from nothing arguement, but then this just falls back on the old arguement of, who created the creator?

 

Also, what makes the God you believe in, the right God? There are a vast amount of religions with different Gods. If there truly was one God, wouldn't there be more evidence oppose to multiple faiths and beliefs?

I've honestly never thought or considered that.

 

Now my heads really fvcked! 

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

It's a combination of the two.

[FoxesDeb]

I have to believe there is something else, otherwise what is the point? Why do we live our lives to just die and there be nothing else? The complex world we live in didn't just happen by accident, something or someone made it. Imo. 

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I have to believe there is something else, otherwise what is the point? Why do we live our lives to just die and there be nothing else? The complex world we live in didn't just happen by accident, something or someone made it. Imo. 

2

What we make for ourselves.

 

The lives we lead have the value we make from them and give to them. We are our own arbiters, not some cosmic entity.

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Amen brother.

Said the Daily Mail reader

[FoxesDeb]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

What we make for ourselves.

 

The lives we lead have the value we make from them and give to them. We are our own arbiters, not some cosmic entity.

I understand what you're saying about our time on earth, I mean afterwards. What is the point of any of our lives if there is nothing better than this afterwards? I would really struggle not to just end it all if I didn't truly believe there was more to it than this. 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, CollinsLCFC said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I have respect for all beliefs, but I find religion and atheism fascinating.

 

You mention that God is the best explanation for the something from nothing arguement, but then this just falls back on the old arguement of, who created the creator?

 

Also, what makes the God you believe in, the right God? There are a vast amount of religions with different Gods. If there truly was one God, wouldn't there be more evidence oppose to multiple faiths and beliefs?

 

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I've honestly never thought or considered that.

 

Now my heads really fvcked! 

 

It's the standard response to someone who uses the 'someone must have made it' argument, and the standard response to that is, 'Nobody made God, God is eternal'.

 

Which is all well and good if that's what they believe, but if they can accept that God is eternal and didn't require a creator, why can't they accept that the universe might be eternal and didn't require a creator? It defies logic.

Edited 3 August 2018 by Buce

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I understand what you're saying about our time on earth, I mean afterwards. What is the point of any of our lives if there is nothing better than this afterwards? I would really struggle not to just end it all if I didn't truly believe there was more to it than this. 

Does there really have to be something afterwards that relies on what we do in this life? Is the reward we gain in this life and the work we do to guarantee the future (if you are into that kind of thing) not enough?

 

I guess that isn't enough for some folks, and honestly, I think that's one of the main reasons why religion exists.

[Buce]

13 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I understand what you're saying about our time on earth, I mean afterwards. What is the point of any of our lives if there is nothing better than this afterwards? I would really struggle not to just end it all if I didn't truly believe there was more to it than this. 

 

Why does there need to be a point?

 

Just asking that question implies that we are somehow special when in reality we are just one organism among millions.

 

 

[Mike Oxlong]

Don’t we mostly have free will within the parameters of who we are as affected by our genetics and life experiences ? 

 

So so a bit of both really ?