Free will or Determinism?

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Remember though, Hell has all the best musicians.

Fair point, well made 

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Remember though, Hell has all the best musicians.

 

Not all of them yet....

 

[Benguin]

2 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

Yes, but I thought God wanted Man to repent, confess and refrain from further sinning - not just to carry on sniffing in the knicker drawer as before?

 

Anyway, I'm disappointed to hear that it was God who began the Benguin. I always thought it was Julio Iglesias?

Haha I have had that tag line for 4 years  allthough I want to sniff rach’s knickers , I’m not going too! 

[FoxesDeb]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Remember though, Hell has all the best musicians.

Wait, what? Jersey Budd is dead? 

[Buce]

10 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

See you in heaven Deb. We'll have a great party 

 

No booze, no drugs, and no Buce.

 

What kind of party do you call that?

[CollinsLCFC]

20 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Where did I say that I think we are somehow special? All I said was that for me, I have to believe in something else. I like to think that God exists, and I try to live my life in such a way that I think he would approve. It doesn't mean I think the human race is special, after all, we are all God's creation.... 

Personally, I just think that's our money dale obligation. To do things right.

 

God's rules and approvals in the ten commandments vary from, thou shall not steal, thou shall not kill etc, just are things we should abide by in society to live a good life. With or without a God

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, CollinsLCFC said:

Personally, I just think that's our money dale obligation. To do things right.

 

God's rules and approvals in the ten commandments vary from, thou shall not steal, thou shall not kill etc, just are things we should abide by in society to live a good life. With or without a God

 

Yeah, but there was something about not coveting your neighbour's ass, as well.

 

Bit homophobic if you ask me.

[Benguin]

36 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yeah, but there was something about not coveting your neighbour's ass, as well.

 

Bit homophobic if you ask me.

Christianity teaches only that it’s a sin to have sex outside of marriage whether it is heterosexual or homosexual. As it has only become a recent thing that homosexuals can get married, people apply false doctrines. Homosexual Christians who have married will be accepted into heaven. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

57 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Wait, what? Jersey Budd is dead? 

[Guest Col city fan]

I believe that we can make our own choices, and determine our own lives to an extent. But ultimately, God and the Devil determine our paths. 

[Mike Oxlong]

7 hours ago, Benguin said:

Christianity teaches only that it’s a sin to have sex outside of marriage whether it is heterosexual or homosexual. As it has only become a recent thing that homosexuals can get married, people apply false doctrines. Homosexual Christians who have married will be accepted into heaven. 

 

Is the key element from the perspective of your belief that this will happen  because they are Christians ? 

 

i.e they have sinned if they have committed sodomy but because they are Christians they can have their sins forgiven. 

 

Would a Christian Myra Hindley and a Christian Adolf Hitler also get into heaven if at the end of their lives they recognised Jesus as their Lord and saviour ? 

 

 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Benguin said:

Fair enough, I believe god exists for three reasons. 1. because I find god to be the best explanation for why something came from nothing. 2. Because I know god to exist in my heart. 3. Because truth and meaning can’t be known without god only illusory truths and meanings and I find this worldview unfathomable.

 

please note I was a devout atheist until about a year ago and have only in the past few months accepted Jesus as the truth. Therefore I know what it’s like to be an atheist, the questions atheists have about blatant errors in logic and evidence etc.

 

 

 

1. But that isn't an explanation is it? It's just believing something because you need to.

2. I'm sure you're aware how crazy that sounds. The heart is just an organ. Belief is simply inside your mind and not backed by facts (or truth), it's based on desire and hope. There is a reason that poor people and old people "believe" in god more than young and wealthy people.

3. I'm not sure that I understand what you are talking about here. Truth is such an individualistic personal opinion - everyone's truth differs to everyone else's.

 

Do you believe in a non-interventionist god? Where do you think the afterlife takes place?  what does the afterlife consist in?

 

Quote

I have to believe there is something else, otherwise what is the point? Why do we live our lives to just die and there be nothing else? The complex world we live in didn't just happen by accident, something or someone made it. Imo. 

Why does there need to be a point? Is there a point for a beatle? Are cows put on earth just to feed man? We live our lives because we exist, we exist because of a series of cause and effect actions that basically produced us from slime. No-one is claiming that life/the world isn't complex just that it doesn't need a God to create it. Nature is fantastic. I'm interested in your answers to the above questions about the afterlife too?

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I'm struggling to understand at what level we're talking about Free Will vs Determinism

 

I agree we have no control whatsoever over the 40,000 random thoughts that appear in our head every day. I do think however that we can choose what we consciously decide to focus on which is driven mainly by our environment/situation at the time. So we do have free will to act in the moment and make conscious choices based on our values/beliefs and human needs - yes.

 

Where I do believe in determinism is regarding the bigger things in life (for want of a better word). I believe our/my life is pretty much decided at a macro level beforehand, e.g. I was always going to get ill, get married, have two kids and do the job I do. 

 

Where religion fits into all this I've no idea. My family are Christians and I attend church but I've come to believe that 'we are all god'. I don't pray to a god/person/deity any more but more to myself and my inner wisdom to guide me. In saying that, I do believe in some sort of 'creator' and can't get my head around all the beauty on the earth including animal, plants etc. just randomly appearing out of nowhere - someone/something must have created them.

 

I also agree in heaven/hell or some sort of afterlife and that if we do/are good in this life we'll be rewarded in the next - or visa versa.

 

So basically I'm all confused and fvcked up about everything 

 

Do I win the award for most contradictory post of the year?

 

We are just a chemical mix, we "choose" dependant on our chemical slurry and other outside factors and experience. It would be possible to predict your every move and thought if there were a program that could entertain all of the factors going into it - which of course there isn't and never will be - We are the sum of what went before us and the cause of what will happen in the future. 

 

The Christian bit I'll ignore but I like your idea that we are all god. To some extent I can entertain this idea - we are all god and none of us are god. As with most "believers" you are choosing to believe there is a God because you are not capable of understanding everything and think that some being must be able to understand everything. Your limits are telling you that their must be a God. It was the same with less advanced man believing "europeans" were gods at one time. It's quite possible that some animals believe that we or other animals are gods because of the same idea.

 

This heaven/Hell and afterlife is really interesting. Heaven must be nearly empty and hell incredibly full and getting fuller everyday if it depends on being good/bad thoughout our lives. Where are they in comparison to our lives? What do you do all the time in each of them? What's the reward? I hear that muslims get loads of virgins - what a strange concept. Why is their no contact with our world? I've spent hours in churches and graveyards and never yet seen any sign of a ghost or a spirit and I've looked.

 

Isn't it more likely that the promise of an afterlife was a tool used by the church to control the people and redirect finances and other benefits to the church and it's ministers?

 

Is belief in religion any different to all the other beliefs? It seems that the need for a God is no different to the need for a drink or a fag and dependant on human chemical weakness.

[Benguin]

3 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said:

 

Is the key element from the perspective of your belief that this will happen  because they are Christians ? 

 

i.e they have sinned if they have committed sodomy but because they are Christians they can have their sins forgiven. 

 

Would a Christian Myra Hindley and a Christian Adolf Hitler also get into heaven if at the end of their lives they recognised Jesus as their Lord and saviour ? 

 

 

Repentance is more than just forgiveness, god would know they were insincere.

[Carl the Llama]

13 hours ago, Benguin said:

Yet still I found him

So where was the cheeky beggar hiding?

[Mike Oxlong]

37 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Repentance is more than just forgiveness, god would know they were insincere.

 

But what if they truly weren’t insincere and were repenting ? 

 

 

Edited 4 August 2018 by Mike Oxlong

[Benguin]

10 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

 

But what if they truly weren’t insincere and were repenting ? 

 

 

 

I don’t think it is possible to commit a crime like that and truly repent. Murder, maybe but killing millions over a long period of time shows there is and will never be remorse.

 

nonetheless yes, repentance is enough. 

[Mike Oxlong]

26 minutes ago, Benguin said:

I don’t think it is possible to commit a crime like that and truly repent. Murder, maybe but killing millions over a long period of time shows there is and will never be remorse.

 

nonetheless yes, repentance is enough. 

Ok, there’s bits around this that I struggle with but I respect your beliefs

[Trav Le Bleu]

I don't know why we're discussing this. It's not like it's going to change anything.

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I don't know why we're discussing this. It's not like it's going to change anything.

So....determinism then? 

[ozleicester]

Pity its drifted down the "god" track.

 

Determinism isnt about the future being "planned" or predetermined and certainly not about "something" knowing what is going to happen.... it is about looking at what HAS happened and acknowledging that.. that was the only thing that couldve happened.

 

or maybe not

Edited 4 August 2018 by ozleicester

[whoareyaaa]

Every positive action has a negative reaction and vice versa, so keep your shit in the middle.

Edited 4 August 2018 by whoareyaaa

[CarbonVirtine]

Can you repeat the question please?

 

and maybe someone might like to unpack it a little as well, clarify some definitions, since it seems (to me) that one man's determinism is another's free will. That is, yes, I can think I am exercising free will but others say that some of that 'choice' is actually predetermined. If so, can we even say that 'free will' exists? Or is it only ever 'free will' over a predetermined range of options. And if so, who/what is doing the determining? 

 

I think I exercise free will in most things but I recognise that my (full) choices are restricted (by a number of factors) 

 

  

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, CarbonVirtine said:

Can you repeat the question please?

 

and maybe someone might like to unpack it a little as well, clarify some definitions, since it seems (to me) that one man's determinism is another's free will. That is, yes, I can think I am exercising free will but others say that some of that 'choice' is actually predetermined. If so, can we even say that 'free will' exists? Or is it only ever 'free will' over a predetermined range of options. And if so, who/what is doing the determining? 

 

I think I exercise free will in most things but I recognise that my (full) choices are restricted (by a number of factors) 

 

  

lol, i would honestly LOVE to explain/unpack...but i cant. and as far as i can tell, no-one has yet actually defined what constitutes free will. So i guess you can only answer what you "think" it all is

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

lol, i would honestly LOVE to explain/unpack...but i cant. and as far as i can tell, no-one has yet actually defined what constitutes free will. So i guess you can only answer what you "think" it all is

5

That's all any human can do. And all any human will ever be able to do.

[CarbonVirtine]

2 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

 So i guess you can only answer what you "think" it all is

Indeed. Is there even an answer? Or is it all just words? We tell stories with words and nobody expects those stories to be true. We lie with words, we create fictional worlds with them - how can we ever be sure that we are speaking of anything (in matters philosophical) that actually exists?

 

Didn't Wittgenstein said something like 'there are no philosophical questions, just semantic ones'

 

Besides, England have just beaten India in what seems like a cracking game. That (within it's accepted/determined contexts) is real enough for me.