Goose that laid the Golden Egg.

[reynard]

On 13/12/2018 at 17:08, Foxxed said:

I disagree that it's a smoke screen. The club's strategy seems prudent and clever. There are many things to dislike about Puel: constantly changing formation, trying to instill a style of football that will take time, lack of chumminess with fans and other things that can fill threads. But he does do one thing very well, something derided by some fans: promote youth into the first team. This is essential to what I believe what was Vichai's strategy and is Top's strategy.

 

You're right it's very hard to compete with the top six. And you're right we can turn into a shop widow (if we sell). But we can do something else that top six clubs will struggle to do: develop an excellent academy and then put the youth into the first team.

 

Chelsea and Man City have some of the best youth talent. They're currently playing in the Championship. And they know there's little chance of breaking through to their clubs. Their own clubs have so much money and so much pressure they're more likely to buy preexisting top talent than give their youth a chance: they have too much at stake.

 

But we can afford to spend half a season painfully watching Chilwell. We can not only develop great talent but then also put them in the first team. We then become a beacon for all the youth talent in the country. Man City and Chelsea may have the glamour to attract players but the youth players know with us they're more like to make it.

 

But this only works with a manager who has a good reputation with youth players and can keep us in the Premier League. I hope Puel succeeds here. But find me another manager who is as good with youth development and can keep us in the Premier League and I will support him instead.

 

Next season we will have an academy youth product as our left back. And our left back sub will be an academy product. And a few nights ago Luke Thomas, an under 18 left back international, scored for us. In three years if he fulfills his potential and becomes nearly as good as Chilwell, every young talented left back in the country will aim to make it in to our youth team - but all that requires a manager will one very important quality, persisting and improving the youth when everyone wants them binned. Find me another Prem-level manager who's as good in that regard and I will support him instead.

Excellent and well thought out post. However, I'm not sure the football world and especially the premier league works that way any more. We seem to be heading for a closed shop of the top 5/6 clubs who just turn up and buy the best players from clubs such as ours. I suspect under your model that the best scenario would be to attract young talent maybe get a couple of seasons out of them and then they will simply be hoovered up by the bigger clubs. Then we have to press the repeat button over and over again.

This is fine but is heavily dependent upon;

1 Having the coaching and development staff in place to do this and I would question whether we do at the moment

2 The number of youth players progressing to the first team and player successfully on a regular basis  would require a significant percentage increase from where we are now.

3 The quality of players coming through to be always consistent enough to ensure survival in the premier league.

 

I suspect the truth is that for clubs of our status the chance of developing squads for the long term is now so miniscule that it is virtually impossible. Unfortunately the development and wishes of players is far too tied in with the wishes of agents. Agents do not make money unless their get big wage increases for their players or make sure they are sold.

 

I'd like to hope you are right but sadly I'm not convinced.

 

[Babylon]

50 minutes ago, reynard said:

Excellent and well thought out post. However, I'm not sure the football world and especially the premier league works that way any more. We seem to be heading for a closed shop of the top 5/6 clubs who just turn up and buy the best players from clubs such as ours. I suspect under your model that the best scenario would be to attract young talent maybe get a couple of seasons out of them and then they will simply be hoovered up by the bigger clubs. Then we have to press the repeat button over and over again.

This is fine but is heavily dependent upon;

1 Having the coaching and development staff in place to do this and I would question whether we do at the moment

2 The number of youth players progressing to the first team and player successfully on a regular basis  would require a significant percentage increase from where we are now.

3 The quality of players coming through to be always consistent enough to ensure survival in the premier league.

 

I suspect the truth is that for clubs of our status the chance of developing squads for the long term is now so miniscule that it is virtually impossible. Unfortunately the development and wishes of players is far too tied in with the wishes of agents. Agents do not make money unless their get big wage increases for their players or make sure they are sold.

 

I'd like to hope you are right but sadly I'm not convinced.

 

So what is the alternative? If we aren't going to spend huge sums of money, it's really by far and away the best model to try and bring through from the youth team and also buy bright young talent.

 

There is always the balance to be struck of promoting youth, whilst also staying competitive and having some experience.

 

We will always lose our best players, no matter what our model is. So I'm not sure why it's even a discussion point sometimes, it will happen.

[Wymsey]

[woddyuk]

The points you raise are good. Yes we have young hungry talent. Yes we play some really good football around the middle third of the pitch at times. But all that potential excitement is killed off when we (eventually / pedestrian like) get anywhere near the 18yard box. A slow patient build up is not the done thing anymore. Liverpool and ManCity (even Arsenal) are playing a style similar to us in 2016. We were called long ball Lucky Leicester. They are being plauded by the media  as inventors of total high energy,pressing counter attacking fast paced football.

I simply don't think we are good enough to control a game with possession long term. Good teams do it better than we do and make us look like dicks. Even "lesser" teams know eventually we shoot ourselves in the foot and wait for us to make the mistake. 

 

But as for Puel? 

You could also say O'Neil was only successful because Little laid the foundation for him. Or Pearson because of Sven and Sousas previous hard work. 

The great Alex Fergusson had a change in style that took time to flourish and was apparently one game away from being sacked until he got it right and led, Utd to sustained success. However I don't think Puel is going to be our Sir Alex.  

 

We can argue about stability. We need to keep Puel becuase  Look at Sunderland, Villa, Stoke, Southampton etc.

 

Though  we could say Chelsea aren't stable at the top either, changing managers on a regular basis, but seem to win a trophy every couple of years. 

 

Man City used to have more managers than we've had Brexit Ministers. Pep is actually quiet long lived there. 

 

Though who is available any better than Puel ? 

Ffs don't say Pearson. That ship has sailed. 

 

I'm more concerned Utd don't come back for Harry with £££££££, 

Or Chilwell now rumoured to be on City's radar. Maddison will get talked about next. Can we keep the young hungry talent, Puel or not? 

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, woddyuk said:

The points you raise are good. Yes we have young hungry talent. Yes we play some really good football around the middle third of the pitch at times. But all that potential excitement is killed off when we (eventually / pedestrian like) get anywhere near the 18yard box. A slow patient build up is not the done thing anymore. Liverpool and ManCity (even Arsenal) are playing a style similar to us in 2016. We were called long ball Lucky Leicester. They are being plauded by the media  as inventors of total high energy,pressing counter attacking fast paced football.

I simply don't think we are good enough to control a game with possession long term. Good teams do it better than we do and make us look like dicks. Even "lesser" teams know eventually we shoot ourselves in the foot and wait for us to make the mistake. 

 

But as for Puel? 

You could also say O'Neil was only successful because Little laid the foundation for him. Or Pearson because of Sven and Sousas previous hard work. 

The great Alex Fergusson had a change in style that took time to flourish and was apparently one game away from being sacked until he got it right and led, Utd to sustained success. However I don't think Puel is going to be our Sir Alex.  

 

We can argue about stability. We need to keep Puel becuase  Look at Sunderland, Villa, Stoke, Southampton etc.

 

Though  we could say Chelsea aren't stable at the top either, changing managers on a regular basis, but seem to win a trophy every couple of years. 

 

Man City used to have more managers than we've had Brexit Ministers. Pep is actually quiet long lived there. 

 

Though who is available any better than Puel ? 

Ffs don't say Pearson. That ship has sailed. 

 

I'm more concerned Utd don't come back for Harry with £££££££, 

Or Chilwell now rumoured to be on City's radar. Maddison will get talked about next. Can we keep the young hungry talent, Puel or not? 

Everything else to one side...what?!

[Foxxed]

2 hours ago, reynard said:

Excellent and well thought out post. However, I'm not sure the football world and especially the premier league works that way any more. We seem to be heading for a closed shop of the top 5/6 clubs who just turn up and buy the best players from clubs such as ours. I suspect under your model that the best scenario would be to attract young talent maybe get a couple of seasons out of them and then they will simply be hoovered up by the bigger clubs. Then we have to press the repeat button over and over again.

This is fine but is heavily dependent upon;

1 Having the coaching and development staff in place to do this and I would question whether we do at the moment

2 The number of youth players progressing to the first team and player successfully on a regular basis  would require a significant percentage increase from where we are now.

3 The quality of players coming through to be always consistent enough to ensure survival in the premier league.

 

I suspect the truth is that for clubs of our status the chance of developing squads for the long term is now so miniscule that it is virtually impossible. Unfortunately the development and wishes of players is far too tied in with the wishes of agents. Agents do not make money unless their get big wage increases for their players or make sure they are sold.

 

I'd like to hope you are right but sadly I'm not convinced.

 

Very good points. It will not be easy. And it will take years. But already it's possible that our academy will have four academy players in the first team next season: Barnes and Chilwell starting and Hamza and Elder on the bench. That's already fairly impressive and I believe we are only starting our journey. Monitoring u18 players like Will Russ and Luke Thomas over the next three years will be very telling. If they are in the position to replace our best players who are attracted by the big lights then we'll be on track. And I believe our strategy is already paying off, and our performances will improve, and those bright lights may not be as bright as before.

Edited 15 December 2018 by Foxxed

[reynard]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

So what is the alternative? If we aren't going to spend huge sums of money, it's really by far and away the best model to try and bring through from the youth team and also buy bright young talent.

 

There is always the balance to be struck of promoting youth, whilst also staying competitive and having some experience.

 

We will always lose our best players, no matter what our model is. So I'm not sure why it's even a discussion point sometimes, it will happen.

For clubs like us there is probably no real alternative to what you say. I'm not really saying we shouldn't do it just that to sustain it will be very difficult and eventually the conveyer belt of young talent will run out. Southampton are the shining example of this.

I fear to bring this up on here but the full implications of Brexit are yet to be seen. It may well result in more British youngsters getting more opportunities but we will have to wait and see.

 

Personally the discussion is wider than just our club it is about to maintain the permier league as a true competition. Our victory gave hope to many but that hope is fast receding into the rear view mirror.

[reynard]

15 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Very good points. It will not be easy. And it will take years. But already it's possible that our academy will have four academy players in the first team next season: Barnes and Chilwell starting and Hamza and Elder on the bench. That's already fairly impressive and I believe we are only starting our journey. Monitoring u18 players like Will Russ and Luke Thomas over the next three years will be very telling. If they are in the position to replace our best players who are attracted by the big lights then we'll be on track. And I believe our strategy is already paying off, and our performances will improve, and those bright lights may not be as bright as before.

I hope you are right. I'm not sure Chilwell will be here next season, perhaps not even by February, and Maguire is likely to go at some point in the near future as well. My genuine question though still remains, do we have the structure currently in place to have a chance of making this happen? Others have commented about our youth team coaches and know far more than I do, so I don't feel able to express an informed opinion on whether we do or not. The new training facilities will certainly help, I would have thought, attract good young talent.

[Tom12345]

It is sad that we won the league but that special family bonding so created is slowly being watered down by Puel as he keeps changing and chopping and freezing out players from our title winning era.  It was a once in a lifetime opportunity to capitalise but yet we are losing it.

Edited 15 December 2018 by Tom12345

[Foxxed]

Just now, reynard said:

I hope you are right. I'm not sure Chilwell will be here next season, perhaps not even by February, and Maguire is likely to go at some point in the near future as well. My genuine question though still remains, do we have the structure currently in place to have a chance of making this happen? Others have commented about our youth team coaches and know far more than I do, so I don't feel able to express an informed opinion on whether we do or not. The new training facilities will certainly help, I would have thought, attract good young talent.

I think they're be there next season for two reasons. If you look on instagram maddison, chilwell and gray are obviously very close and I believe they want to stay together rather than risk a lonely bench place at United. I think Maguire may go but in that case, if the Celtic fans are correct that we have a young Van Dyke on our hands, then I could accept him going and being replaced with another young player.

 

And more concretely I do not think we will sell an academy player unless we have a very good youth replacement lined up since Top, Rudkin and Puel know it's essential to keep them to become the kind of club we desire.

 

There are two posters who berate Beaglehole and the coaching structure out of frustration. And like you I don't know enough to say how accurate they are with their criticisms, and they do seem to be more ITK. But if Hamza, Barnes and Chilwell can all go through the system and make it into our first team and two of them into the England team I don't think it can be as terrible as is sometimes implied.

[The Doctor]

11 minutes ago, Tom12345 said:

It is sad that we won the league but that special family bonding so created is slowly being watered down by Puel as he keeps changing and chopping and freezing out players from our title winning era.  It was a once in a lifetime opportunity to capitalise but yet we are losing it.

Nonsense. That opportunity was lost the season afterwards when the big sides bounced back, long before Puel arrived.

 

As for the title winning side being frozen out, there were 14 regular players: Schmeichel, Morgan, Vardy & Albrighton all still regularly play. Fuchs and Okazaki are still regular match day squad members. Kante, Schlupp and Drinkwater were already gone, Mahrez we were never going to manage to keep, we already had him a year longer than anyone planned. So that's 4 he's moved on or cut out: Huth (34, spent the entirety of his last season injured), Ulloa (32, was already not playing much when Puel arrived), Simpson (31, replaced by Ricardo) and King (30, hasn't been more than backup since 2013). You whine about him replacing the older members of the title winning team, whose best days are behind them, and whine about him wasting our chance to push forward - pick one, because at the moment you're flinging contradictory shit just to see what sticks.

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, reynard said:

For clubs like us there is probably no real alternative to what you say. I'm not really saying we shouldn't do it just that to sustain it will be very difficult and eventually the conveyer belt of young talent will run out. Southampton are the shining example of this.

I fear to bring this up on here but the full implications of Brexit are yet to be seen. It may well result in more British youngsters getting more opportunities but we will have to wait and see.

 

Personally the discussion is wider than just our club it is about to maintain the permier league as a true competition. Our victory gave hope to many but that hope is fast receding into the rear view mirror.

Absolutely, no guarantees. We'll still need to spend good money elsewhere to stay ahead. I'm glad we are doing a lot off the pitch as well that will take us out of the same bracket as saints, making it a little easier.

[Matt]

4 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

It is sad that we won the league but that special family bonding so created is slowly being watered down by Puel as he keeps changing and chopping and freezing out players from our title winning era.  It was a once in a lifetime opportunity to capitalise but yet we are losing it.

Can't agree with that i'm afraid.

 

The once in a lifetime opportunity to capitalise was instantly thrown away by many members of culpable staff.

 

As for 'freezing out players from our title winning era" - Well it was gonna happen one way or another, IF we'd have made the most of our opportunities it'd arguably have happened sooner rather than later/now, it is happening now as they're getting older or in greatest of respect to them becoming surplus to requirements.

 

Whilst i'll blame Puel for alot he cannot be blamed for that, the issues were there and the opportunities had long gone before he came.

 

What I do feel is being watered down by Puel is our atmosphere, fight and desire as fans, whether you like or not the lack of communication, rapport, interaction, ultimately added with his style of boring football is killing/has killed our once improved atmosphere, which as has been discussed many times until it ends up going full circle, pushes the players on to be better, fight for it and fire them up.

 

I can't speak for everyone but a few people I know are finding it a chore and lacking enthusiasm to go to games some have even stopped going and I make no exaggeration in that.

 

I know people then say "don't you remember where we've come from", "what about when we were languishing in the championship" yada, yada, yada, i'm all for being humble, looking back on our history but we've moved on since then, we're a different club, we've got bigger and better opportunities that haven't been taken.

 

Edited 15 December 2018 by Matt