Offside

[FireFox]

A few opinions I have:

 

First, I generally like that (a) VAR overlooks matches. The on-field ref and two assistants cannot always see everything clearly (remember when Evans was fouled trying to clear the ball off the line). It's also often just impossible to see two positions at the same time, which is needed to determine offside. Obviously though, there are problems with VARs' implementation /the instructions to refs.

 

Second, assistants are being told to keep the flag down when it's close, but a lot of times I feel like they are not? But also, if they do, and the ball goes out for a corner, and the team scores from that corner, wtf? Imo, the assistant should raise the flag, maybe halfway? and the ref can decide how to let play go on. All players should play to the whistle anyway. 

 

Third and my main suggestion, the technology isn't perfect. We cannot know which video frame best shows when the ball leaves the foot of the passer. But there should be an advantage to the attacker, so take all the potential frames (probably only 2 - the best guess, and the frame after, or the frame before if its more about the defenders stepping up), and if the attacker is onside for any of those, then the attacker is onside. Simple, except it might take twice as long to do.

 

Fourth, maybe the rule needs rewording too. If a player's head is offside, and they score with their foot, should that matter? If you cannot 'lean in' to gain an advantage, then why can your arm and hands 'lean in'? And I just hate how you can be offside if the pass is made from within 18-yards.

[Guest Eamonn]

On 29/12/2019 at 19:53, nnfox said:

VAR isn't the problem. The offside rule is the problem.  They brought the rule in a few years ago that said a player is in an offside position if a part of the attacker's body that is capable of scoring a goal (i.e. not the hand) is ahead of the defender.  It gave assistant referees opportunity to have an acceptable degree of human error.  Calling offsides, especially in tight, high speed scenarios is exceptionally difficult.

 

That rule might have been ok in the past but for football played in the VAR age and the scrutiny it brings it makes a joke of it.  The problem is that the laws of the game are universal and VAR is only used in a tiny proportion of leagues worldwide.

 

That said, the offside rule is overly complicated. It needs simplifying or even completely rewriting. 

 

Take the measure from the feet.  Have it so it's only offside if there is clear daylight between attack and defender. Draw another line on the pitch 30 yards from goal and make it so you can't be offside there.  Scrap it altogether. Do something!

 

VAR isn't the problem.  The rule is.

I agree.

 

It must be possible to put sensors in players boots,  to determine offside immediately.  If those sensors sent their signal to the linesman's flag you could get an instant decision.  Then there'd be no need for VAR in offside decisions

 

 

[Tom12345]

2 hours ago, Eamonn said:

I agree.

 

It must be possible to put sensors in players boots,  to determine offside immediately.  If those sensors sent their signal to the linesman's flag you could get an instant decision.  Then there'd be no need for VAR in offside decisions

 

 

I like the idea.

[Tom12345]

On 30/12/2019 at 03:53, nnfox said:

VAR isn't the problem. The offside rule is the problem.  They brought the rule in a few years ago that said a player is in an offside position if a part of the attacker's body that is capable of scoring a goal (i.e. not the hand) is ahead of the defender.  It gave assistant referees opportunity to have an acceptable degree of human error.  Calling offsides, especially in tight, high speed scenarios is exceptionally difficult.

 

That rule might have been ok in the past but for football played in the VAR age and the scrutiny it brings it makes a joke of it.  The problem is that the laws of the game are universal and VAR is only used in a tiny proportion of leagues worldwide.

 

That said, the offside rule is overly complicated. It needs simplifying or even completely rewriting. 

 

Take the measure from the feet.  Have it so it's only offside if there is clear daylight between attack and defender. Draw another line on the pitch 30 yards from goal and make it so you can't be offside there.  Scrap it altogether. Do something!

 

VAR isn't the problem.  The rule is.

I also agree. Let the game be played in the right spirit and in the case of the offsite rule it should be more about not allowing attackers hanging about in the opposition goal waiting for the long ball. I think measuring simply from the feet or the center of the body is a good start but where it is marginal advantage should be given to the attacker.

[davieG]

9 hours ago, FireFox said:

A few opinions I have:

 

First, I generally like that (a) VAR overlooks matches. The on-field ref and two assistants cannot always see everything clearly (remember when Evans was fouled trying to clear the ball off the line). It's also often just impossible to see two positions at the same time, which is needed to determine offside. Obviously though, there are problems with VARs' implementation /the instructions to refs.

 

Second, assistants are being told to keep the flag down when it's close, but a lot of times I feel like they are not? But also, if they do, and the ball goes out for a corner, and the team scores from that corner, wtf? Imo, the assistant should raise the flag, maybe halfway? and the ref can decide how to let play go on. All players should play to the whistle anyway. 

 

Third and my main suggestion, the technology isn't perfect. We cannot know which video frame best shows when the ball leaves the foot of the passer. But there should be an advantage to the attacker, so take all the potential frames (probably only 2 - the best guess, and the frame after, or the frame before if its more about the defenders stepping up), and if the attacker is onside for any of those, then the attacker is onside. Simple, except it might take twice as long to do.

 

Fourth, maybe the rule needs rewording too. If a player's head is offside, and they score with their foot, should that matter? If you cannot 'lean in' to gain an advantage, then why can your arm and hands 'lean in'? And I just hate how you can be offside if the pass is made from within 18-yards.

Fourth, it's not always the goal scorer that is deemed to be offside it could be the assister or assister+1 / +2 etc.in the build up.

[Wolfox]

Sorry if already posted

 

quite liked the suggestion from Souness

 

as long as any goal scoring part of the striker remains onside - means more goals

 

doesn't resolve the checking, just means that the vast majority of these marginal decisions favour the attacking side  

[BKLFox]

See it's been confirmed that the Premiership has been over using the use of VAR for offsides, like all things VAR it is meant for clear and obvious mistakes not 15 different camera angles to see if a players armpit is offside.

I expect there will be some changes in 2020 on how the Prem use in the future, thankfully. 

[st albans fox]

57 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

Sorry if already posted

 

quite liked the suggestion from Souness

 

as long as any goal scoring part of the striker remains onside - means more goals

 

doesn't resolve the checking, just means that the vast majority of these marginal decisions favour the attacking side  

I’m really against this (as per the suggestion of daylight) - it could change the ethos of the game ....defenders will be forced to drop deeper and deeper to feel safe and the game will change as a result .... no one can be sure how it will change but it could end up considerably worse for entertainment  .....we must take care that any changes to laws are thought through extensively ....

[Wolfox]

35 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’m really against this (as per the suggestion of daylight) - it could change the ethos of the game ....defenders will be forced to drop deeper and deeper to feel safe and the game will change as a result .... no one can be sure how it will change but it could end up considerably worse for entertainment  .....we must take care that any changes to laws are thought through extensively ....

Fait point…. I suspect you’re right…

Edited 31 December 2019 by Wolfox

[l444ry]

10 hours ago, Eamonn said:

I agree.

 

It must be possible to put sensors in players boots,  to determine offside immediately.  If those sensors sent their signal to the linesman's flag you could get an instant decision.  Then there'd be no need for VAR in offside decisions

 

 

You'd surely need a sensor in the ball as well? And you'd need different sensors for each team otherwise how would you know who touched the ball last? Not sure it would be any better than we have now. Pretty sure the powers above will amend the offside rule slightly and speed the process up.   

[oxford blue]

On 29/12/2019 at 17:56, Phube said:

The one question that matters:

 

Has anyone in the Prem this season scored an offside goal?

 

No. Case closed!

 

Can it be improved by a change in the laws to help aid attackers to score more goals?

 

Yes. By making it the go from the foot, eliminating body lean. But it will always be marginal in some games.

Have goals been disallowed that there goals though? Possibly. The frames per second of VAR is not fast enough for players at full speed to determine when the pass was completed..

 

I do agree that offside should be related to foot position as this is clearer for all and more easily understood. Furthermore it will reduce time taken to make a decision which is important.

 

And - as I have put on another thread - the VAR replays must be shown at grounds, as they are in other sports. It's ludicrous that someone watching at home will be far better informed why a decision has been made.

 

 

[Guest Eamonn]

4 hours ago, l444ry said:

You'd surely need a sensor in the ball as well? And you'd need different sensors for each team otherwise how would you know who touched the ball last? Not sure it would be any better than we have now. Pretty sure the powers above will amend the offside rule slightly and speed the process up.   

I reckon all of that is technically possible.I accept that it is debatable whether it would better. I think it would be, because it would be instantaneous, like goal-liine technology is. It should also be more precise than VAR.

[Phube]

If anyone want to hear a coherent and well thought out discussion against the Anti-VAR fervour should listen to the latest Totally Football Show ‘Head Cannon’ from 29 min to 36 min, by Raphael Hoenikstein(sp?).