Foxes To Step Up to Next Level

[HighPeakFox]

3 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

The problem is selling your *key* players. Players will come here with the *stepping stone* psyche that isnt healthy for our club.

Chilwell really isn't one of our key players. And it is only him, it's not like Ndidi, Maddison and Cags are being sold.

[UHDrive]

He isnt a key player? Seriously? And no it isn't him alone, there's maguire, mahrez, kante etc year on year since the PL win. It isnt healthy.

[Hales]

I don't agree he is not a key player. He was nailed on in that position and one of the first names on the team sheet each week.  Also a member of the leadership group so clearly thought of highly by teammates and management.

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, UHDrive said:

He isnt a key player? Seriously? And no it isn't him alone, there's maguire, mahrez, kante etc year on year since the PL win. It isnt healthy.

Mate, that is one per year.  Kante we could do nothing about, Drinkwater was NOT a key player by the time he left, and we got enormous money for the other 2. If we had sold 3 or 4 in one summer it would be entirely different. 

[Qwerty]

I think clubs have to tread a fine line.  You don’t want to be a “selling club”, but equally you don’t want to be a club that players know they can’t escape from, because then they might choose not to come here in the first place!  The whole Mahrez fiasco - hanging on to him when he was desperate to go - wasn’t a good for our image at all.  I think the firm but fair approach is better. Yes we’ll sell if you want to go, but only for a good price, and only one of you at a time!

[UHDrive]

1 hour ago, HighPeakFox said:

Mate, that is one per year.  Kante we could do nothing about, Drinkwater was NOT a key player by the time he left, and we got enormous money for the other 2. If we had sold 3 or 4 in one summer it would be entirely different. 

Ask yourself this. How many clubs above us have our transfer policy of selling assets year on year rather than focusing on keeping the core of their teams?

[jeffschlupp]

13 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

Ask yourself this. How many clubs above us have our transfer policy of selling assets year on year rather than focusing on keeping the core of their teams?

If you're only selling one asset per year, you do keep the core of the team. The core of the team in 2016 when Kante left (Morgan, Huth, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Albrighton, Okazaki, Vardy) is now almost completely different to the core now. And you can clearly see an improvement in the quality of the squad despite selling one key player every summer during those last 4 years.

 

The club does not make enough commercial revenue, nor does it compete regularly enough in European football to spend £100m+ net every summer, that's just the reality of the business. Everyone goes on about Everton and West Ham but the former has just made a £110m loss and the latter is in debt. LCFC learned the lesson of debt once when we went into admin and nearly lost everything. The club is self-sufficient so even if KPI were to go bust tomorrow we would stay afloat.

 

Look at Dortmund:

2013 lost Gotze

2014 lost Lewandowski

2016 lost Mkhitaryan, Hummels and Gundogan

2017 lost Dembele

2018 January lost Aubameyang

2019 January lost Pulisic

2019 lost Diallo

 

They've kept others like Reus (same as us with Vardy) but most key players there have gone down the years.

 

Clubs in the mould of Dortmund, Sevilla, Leverkusen and Lyon work on this model. Anyone thinking we can be any better or bigger than that bunch without serious genius (Clough/Ferguson level) or being bankrolled by the Saudis is unfortunately misguided.

 

We have learned lessons from players we've let go - after being stung once by Kante and nearly twice by Vardy, we don't do release clauses. We are one of the best at protecting assets with long term contracts - the club foresaw Chilwell's rise 18 months ago and gave him six years.

 

Selling players is part of the game for us. When you look back I think we've done a better job than I'd have thought - to have only lost Maguire and Chilwell since Mahrez, given the quality through our squad (Ndidi, Ricardo, Vardy, Soyuncu, Maddison, Tielemans) is quite brilliant. And nobody in their right mind would swap Ndidi for Kante, Söyüncü for Maguire or Tielemans for Drinkwater at this moment in time. It's only Mahrez whose loss has been felt, but again would you give Maddison up for him?

Edited 23 August 2020 by jeffschlupp

[Steve Earle]

FWIW I’m entirely comfortable with the strategy of selling one player for big money per annum, and using that to fund 2, 3 or 4 signings to improve the squad overall.

 

We made a complete rick of the summer ‘16 window but arguably have had the better of each of the subsequent summers.

 

I’m mildly worried about signing a Lewis or similar, but if we sell Chilwell & Slimani and shift a few more of the deadwood, and sign Telles or Tagliafico plus the much-needed RW, CB & CM, who could seriously argue that’d be a poor window? Or that of a ‘selling club’?

[HighPeakFox]

34 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

Ask yourself this. How many clubs above us have our transfer policy of selling assets year on year rather than focusing on keeping the core of their teams?

I believe the question has been answered and I have no need to add to it.

[deanolegend1989]

25 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

If you're only selling one asset per year, you do keep the core of the team. The core of the team in 2016 when Kante left (Morgan, Huth, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Albrighton, Okazaki, Vardy) is now almost completely different to the core now. And you can clearly see an improvement in the quality of the squad despite selling one key player every summer during those last 4 years.

 

The club does not make enough commercial revenue, nor does it compete regularly enough in European football to spend £100m+ net every summer, that's just the reality of the business. Everyone goes on about Everton and West Ham but the former has just made a £110m loss and the latter is in debt. LCFC learned the lesson of debt once when we went into admin and nearly lost everything. The club is self-sufficient so even if KPI were to go bust tomorrow we would stay afloat.

 

Look at Dortmund:

2013 lost Gotze

2014 lost Lewandowski

2016 lost Mkhitaryan, Hummels and Gundogan

2017 lost Dembele

2018 January lost Aubameyang

2019 January lost Pulisic

2019 lost Diallo

 

They've kept others like Reus (same as us with Vardy) but most key players there have gone down the years.

 

Clubs in the mould of Dortmund, Sevilla, Leverkusen and Lyon work on this model. Anyone thinking we can be any better or bigger than that bunch without serious genius (Clough/Ferguson level) or being bankrolled by the Saudis is unfortunately misguided.

 

We have learned lessons from players we've let go - after being stung once by Kante and nearly twice by Vardy, we don't do release clauses. We are one of the best at protecting assets with long term contracts - the club foresaw Chilwell's rise 18 months ago and gave him six years.

 

Selling players is part of the game for us. When you look back I think we've done a better job than I'd have thought - to have only lost Maguire and Chilwell since Mahrez, given the quality through our squad (Ndidi, Ricardo, Vardy, Soyuncu, Maddison, Tielemans) is quite brilliant. And nobody in their right mind would swap Ndidi for Kante, Söyüncü for Maguire or Tielemans for Drinkwater at this moment in time. It's only Mahrez whose loss has been felt, but again would you give Maddison up for him?

Nobody in their right mind would swap them?

Course I’d give them all up bar Tielemens for Drinkwater as he’s finished.

Kante over Ndidi all day and twice on Xmas!

Mahrez is about 50 levels above Maddison , so that’s a silly comparison.

Id even argue Leicester fans biast towards Soyuncu over Maguire , dont think many people would agree, although I’d pick Soyuncu but it’s close and hardly a ‘must not be in their right mind’ opinion if they picked Maguire.

 

Although I agree it’s not a big deal selling a few, we need more ambition to keep top level players. We can’t keep plucking gems from nowhere, only takes a few bad transfer windows to potentially relegation battles!

[jeffschlupp]

1 minute ago, deanolegend1989 said:

Nobody in their right mind would swap them?

Course I’d give them all up bar Tielemens for Drinkwater as he’s finished.

Kante over Ndidi all day and twice on Xmas!

Mahrez is about 50 levels above Maddison , so that’s a silly comparison.

Id even argue Leicester fans biast towards Soyuncu over Maguire , dont think many people would agree, although I’d pick Soyuncu but it’s close and hardly a ‘must not be in their right mind’ opinion if they picked Maguire.

 

Although I agree it’s not a big deal selling a few, we need more ambition to keep top level players. We can’t keep plucking gems from nowhere, only takes a few bad transfer windows to potentially relegation battles!

Kante over Ndidi really? Kante struggles massively in a 4-3-3 and is hugely injury prone these days. Ndidi would be worth significantly more for resale now too.

 

Anyone who would have Maguire over Söyüncü doesn't understand football, the difference is massive. Maguire would still be sat on our bench if he hadn't been picked over Cahill at the World Cup, he has been promoted far beyond his ability.

 

Again, Mahrez is nearing 30 and Maddison can easily reach his levels when he turns it on, and will get better. Mahrez was also a pain in the arse off the field.

[UHDrive]

2 hours ago, jeffschlupp said:

If you're only selling one asset per year, you do keep the core of the team. The core of the team in 2016 when Kante left (Morgan, Huth, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Albrighton, Okazaki, Vardy) is now almost completely different to the core now. And you can clearly see an improvement in the quality of the squad despite selling one key player every summer during those last 4 years.

 

The club does not make enough commercial revenue, nor does it compete regularly enough in European football to spend £100m+ net every summer, that's just the reality of the business. Everyone goes on about Everton and West Ham but the former has just made a £110m loss and the latter is in debt. LCFC learned the lesson of debt once when we went into admin and nearly lost everything. The club is self-sufficient so even if KPI were to go bust tomorrow we would stay afloat.

 

Look at Dortmund:

2013 lost Gotze

2014 lost Lewandowski

2016 lost Mkhitaryan, Hummels and Gundogan

2017 lost Dembele

2018 January lost Aubameyang

2019 January lost Pulisic

2019 lost Diallo

 

They've kept others like Reus (same as us with Vardy) but most key players there have gone down the years.

 

Clubs in the mould of Dortmund, Sevilla, Leverkusen and Lyon work on this model. Anyone thinking we can be any better or bigger than that bunch without serious genius (Clough/Ferguson level) or being bankrolled by the Saudis is unfortunately misguided.

 

We have learned lessons from players we've let go - after being stung once by Kante and nearly twice by Vardy, we don't do release clauses. We are one of the best at protecting assets with long term contracts - the club foresaw Chilwell's rise 18 months ago and gave him six years.

 

Selling players is part of the game for us. When you look back I think we've done a better job than I'd have thought - to have only lost Maguire and Chilwell since Mahrez, given the quality through our squad (Ndidi, Ricardo, Vardy, Soyuncu, Maddison, Tielemans) is quite brilliant. And nobody in their right mind would swap Ndidi for Kante, Söyüncü for Maguire or Tielemans for Drinkwater at this moment in time. It's only Mahrez whose loss has been felt, but again would you give Maddison up for him?

I disagree. Top 6 clubs don't have that philosophy of which your comment is also at odds with the clubs ambitions.

[HighPeakFox]

25 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

I disagree. Top 6 clubs don't have that philosophy of which your comment is also at odds with the clubs ambitions.

And the rest of what he said?

[UHDrive]

18 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

And the rest of what he said?

Are you a tag team or something? I wasn't aware I needed to Cc you in.

[TJB-fox]

18 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

Since the title winning season, the club had sold one key first team player almost every season: Kante, Drinkwater, Mahrez, Maguire and (now looking likely) Chilwell.

 

Nonetheless, if not for the slip-up of the decade (on par if not worst than the Liverpool/Gerrard slip), we should be in the champions league this coming season.  

 

Leaving aside why we slipped up (well discussed on other threads: some saw this coming despite criticism since January), and what a major opportunity loss that is, the club needs to consolidate and decide what sort of club it wishes to be.

 

We have a new training facility completing very soon. Despite Chilwell likely leaving - which to some may not be a major loss (including me though personally I would like to keep him but as a squad player and to provide options) - we still have a decent young squad. We need to stop selling a key first team player every season especially if he is an academy product or a Leicester legend like Kasper.

 

It is not just about ambition, but it is also about not being a feeding club to the top 4/6. Top 4/6 clubs need to stop picking apart up and coming challengers. More importantly, it is about maintaining the culture that has been built here - some fans assume we can for example sell Kasper and get a “like for like” but the “like for like” will need time to absorb and getting into the culture here. Too many changes of the old guard means the culture disappears before it is too late.

 

Culture is also built by reputation. So we cannot be branded a selling club. This will rub off on the players and start off a “cultural” crack. There was a reason, rightly so in my view, we stopped Mahrez leaving for a few season despite him wanting to leave. In hindsight, luckily we did that because that helped set the tone not just for what we are as a club (football and business wise) but for the players that we are trying build something special here.

 

Look at Man Utd, they changed their squad so much that they destroyed their winning culture since Ferguson left. Luckily, they still had a massive reputation that was built, and Ole is able to slowly now in my view rebuild that because of that pull - how often do you hear ex Man Utd players like Keane talking on TV about “this is Man United” and equating that to a culture of: it is not good enough if any player does not try 200% to win every game because Man Utd is bigger than all of them and means something significant.

 

That is the culture we need to maintain no matter who is here. This is the “Fearless Foxes” - rather than explaining what this should be, I would just say think “Vardy”, and think “Kasper”. Never give up, always running, thinking always we can win until the last minute. (In this regard, I am not fussed that Chilwell is leaving.)

 

Let’s not build a reputation as a selling club.

 

 

Keep Chilwell as a squad player 

 

[HighPeakFox]

19 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

Are you a tag team or something? I wasn't aware I needed to Cc you in.

hahaha, you are in no way defensive.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

7 hours ago, UHDrive said:

The problem is selling your *key* players. Players will come here with the *stepping stone* psyche that isnt healthy for our club.

Again I don't agree with that, players won't care about that as long as the club is progressing each season and competing in Europe. I don't think for example selling Harry Maguire last season will be any factor whatsoever in players wanting to sign. The big thing for most players is champions league football.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

2 hours ago, UHDrive said:

I disagree. Top 6 clubs don't have that philosophy of which your comment is also at odds with the clubs ambitions.

Taht's because traditional top 6 clubs have stadiums typically twice the size of the King Power, play in European football every season and thus generate about £100m extra per year over a season. How do you expect Leicester to try and combat that financial handicap and compete with these sides?

[Hales]

15 minutes ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

Again I don't agree with that, players won't care about that as long as the club is progressing each season and competing in Europe. I don't think for example selling Harry Maguire last season will be any factor whatsoever in players wanting to sign. The big thing for most players is champions league football.

I agree. I wonder if we would have kept Chilly for another season if we had got champions league. I think missing out strengthened his thoughts on leaving. It is what players strive for.

[deanolegend1989]

10 hours ago, jeffschlupp said:

Kante over Ndidi really? Kante struggles massively in a 4-3-3 and is hugely injury prone these days. Ndidi would be worth significantly more for resale now too.

 

Anyone who would have Maguire over Söyüncü doesn't understand football, the difference is massive. Maguire would still be sat on our bench if he hadn't been picked over Cahill at the World Cup, he has been promoted far beyond his ability.

 

Again, Mahrez is nearing 30 and Maddison can easily reach his levels when he turns it on, and will get better. Mahrez was also a pain in the arse off the field.

Yes Kante is absolutely world class still. hes picked up a few injuries, doesn't fit in as well with Lampards style but Id have him over Ndidi in a heartbeat. He'd be a perfect fit for Man Utd at the minute IMO. He would fit perfectly behind Pogba and Fernandes, exactly what they need.

 

Id pick Soyuncu, I think Maguire is overrated. However its clear he is a good CB and its not that crazy to think hes better than Soyuncu, Cags still have a lot to prove, this is a big season for him to prove it wasn't just a flash in the pan.

 

Maddison could play till hes 100 and not get to the levels Riyad got to. Much as I dislike Mahrez(Lets say I don't hold him in high regards compared to Vardy, Kante and Izzet) for what he did and the way he engineered his move away from us, no doubt he was probably the most talented player we will ever see at the King Power in the next century and beyond! Maddison is just a decent player IMO, nothing more nothing less. 

[UHDrive]

11 hours ago, Muzzy_Larsson said:

Taht's because traditional top 6 clubs have stadiums typically twice the size of the King Power, play in European football every season and thus generate about £100m extra per year over a season. How do you expect Leicester to try and combat that financial handicap and compete with these sides?

Every club I.e. Everton must take a gamble in the transfer marker for European football. Its not a secret from Top down to the fans that regular European football is what is sought and openly stated. And why create one of the best training grounds in europe and stadium expansion for mid table mediocrity? Your philosophy will only retain a mid table club ambition. Disappointing from some fans to be honest. 

[Muzzy_Larsson]

27 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

Every club I.e. Everton must take a gamble in the transfer marker for European football. Its not a secret from Top down to the fans that regular European football is what is sought and openly stated. And why create one of the best training grounds in europe and stadium expansion for mid table mediocrity? Your philosophy will only retain a mid table club ambition. Disappointing from some fans to be honest. 

You aren't a club who finished mid table though so that argument is nonsense. Plenty of clubs follow a similar model in selling a big player every summer and replacing them smartly and do very well, get to latter stages of European competition (often winning it in the case of sides like Sevilla), regularly qualifying and reaching the latter stages of CL (Porto, Ajax, among others). If you think your going to be holding onto all of your top players and go out and spend the same amount of money as top 6 sides and compete with them on the park then your simply living in a fantasy land, the reality is your a smaller club at the moment than these sides, with far less income so you have to find a way of boxing clever and competing with them by alternative means and the best way to do that is to outperform them in the transfer market.

[Babylon]

19 hours ago, UHDrive said:

He isnt a key player? Seriously? And no it isn't him alone, there's maguire, mahrez, kante etc year on year since the PL win. It isnt healthy.

We finished 5th.... 

[Babylon]

44 minutes ago, UHDrive said:

Every club I.e. Everton must take a gamble in the transfer marker for European football. Its not a secret from Top down to the fans that regular European football is what is sought and openly stated. And why create one of the best training grounds in europe and stadium expansion for mid table mediocrity? Your philosophy will only retain a mid table club ambition. Disappointing from some fans to be honest. 

Because, for the one billionth time it's about the long game. When we have an expanded ground and a better training facility, it takes us up a level. Meaning we can pay more and can attract better players, meaning we have a better chance of competing at the top end of the table, meaning players wasn't to stick around a bit longer. They will still want to go if a big club comes in, so get used to it. But we go from just being another Norwich, Palace, Watford type club, and start being thought of more in the bracket of Everton, Villa, Newcastle. Who if they had all been managed correctly would and should occupy the top half of the table and compete for European places. 

 

We are talking sustainable long term growth, it has it's risks and it means smart trading in the market to get there. But that's what we're doing and it's currently working. 

 

We spend good money on wages, on fees, invest in the ground and training ground. The money needs to come from somewhere, so it means being self sufficient. The club might not admit it, but our purchases are bought with one eye on selling them down the road. It's the only was of getting growth naturally without investment from the owners. Do you see many other clubs of our level managing to spend what we do?

 

You need to stop looking at this team and worrying about it being dismantled, the end game is decades away. Yes there is a balancing act, but currently you are in no position to moan about it when we're doing so well on the pitch, we're buying good players after we've sold others and growing off the pitch. 

Edited 24 August 2020 by Babylon

[Muzzy_Larsson]

21 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Because, for the one billionth time it's about the long game. When we have an expanded ground and a better training facility, it takes us up a level. Meaning we can pay more and can attract better players, meaning we have a better chance of competing at the top end of the table, meaning players wasn't to stick around a bit longer. They will still want to go if a big club comes in, so get used to it. But we go from just being another Norwich, Palace, Watford type club, and start being thought of more in the bracket of Everton, Villa, Newcastle. Who if they had all been managed correctly would and should occupy the top half of the table and compete for European places. 

 

We are talking sustainable long term growth, it has it's risks and it means smart trading in the market to get there. But that's what we're doing and it's currently working. 

 

We spend good money on wages, on fees, invest in the ground and training ground. The money needs to come from somewhere, so it means being self sufficient. The club might not admit it, but our purchases are bought with one eye on selling them down the road. It's the only was of getting growth naturally without investment from the owners. Do you see many other clubs of our level managing to spend what we do?

 

You need to stop looking at this team and worrying about it being dismantled, the end game is decades away. Yes there is a balancing act, but currently you are in no position to moan about it when we're doing so well on the pitch, we're buying good players after we've sold others and growing off the pitch. 

This is it and there is no shame in admitting it and it's a clever thing to do. It's the exact same thing with Celtic on a lesser scale. I could get all misty eyed and say players are attracted to us as we sell out 60k every week, regularly play in Europe and win silverware but the reality is nowadays it's not, the main thing that allows us to attract players is the fact we can offer the route to the riches of the EPL if they do well and can point to many examples of this.

 

It's like me sitting here saying, damn it, if we had held onto all our players we'd have guys like Van Dijk, Dembele, Wanyama, etc, etc all in our starting eleven just now and we'd be a great side. It's an absolute fallacy as if it weren't for selling someone like Wanyama, we'd never have got Van Dijk and had we not sold him we wouldn't have been able to go out and get Dembele and pay him what we had to to get him to Scotland and so forth. It's the same for Leicester, you pay guys like Maguire and Chilwell what the Man Utd's and Chelsea's of this world will then how on earth do you expect to have the money to add and improve to the squad overall.