How green is LCFC?

[Dahnsouff]

19 hours ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Ever driven an electric car and understood the practicalities? Or have you just read top gear magazine?

 

You do realise there's one senior member of staff with an EV, zero player and zero coaching staff have one. So very much out of kilter with the rest of the market. Additionally if you look at the car leasing firms they use there's zero demand for them. EV's are practical for short journeys but anything over half an hour and they're clunky - no footballer is going to have the patience for that.

 

Plug sockets take over 24 hours to charge 🤣 

So you are suggesting what exactly? We should concede the whole game to climate change? Or maybe you have some generational concept to promote? I do hope it’s not the all too easy option c of pointless naysaying.  

[Vardinio'sCat]

On 03/02/2022 at 10:44, Chocolate Teapot said:

Ever driven an electric car and understood the practicalities? Or have you just read top gear magazine?

 

You do realise there's one senior member of staff with an EV, zero player and zero coaching staff have one. So very much out of kilter with the rest of the market. Additionally if you look at the car leasing firms they use there's zero demand for them. EV's are practical for short journeys but anything over half an hour and they're clunky - no footballer is going to have the patience for that.

 

Plug sockets take over 24 hours to charge 🤣 

 

Anything over half an hour?  You have just shown how little you know, an eight year old Nissan Leaf is not the reference point in 2022.

 

Build the chargers and they will come. It helps to get folks started to have a few chargers for not huge money, subsidised by the Workplace grant scheme, it shouldn't be a big deal on a £100 million pound site. Of course, some of these staff will have driving habits that might not be much fun in what they can afford, you really need a Tesla to if you are a motorway specialist for some reason. And I would argue that high mileage motorway monsters are a good few years from being served well by anything on the used market. It is the leased market end-of-contract vehicles that need to come on strong before that happens, I guess.

 

I follow Bjorn Nyland, who is probably the man, in terms of real world information on EV's, have you even heard the name before?and I did aspire to car journalism, but most of the journalists I met were knobs, so I never got further than work experience and newspaper journalism training.

 

So you know your CCS from your Chademo and your type 2? Your Zap map from ABRP? Do you understand charging curves and their importance? Do you understand battery temperature management, pre-heating etc? Do you understand the impact of wind, rain, elevation and temperature on range? Do you know about the recent load switching tech being used in the latest charger clusters? Have you ever heard of Lucid? Do you understand the effect of wheel size on range, are bigger or smaller better?

 

This plug socket that takes over 24 hours is probably what is known as a 'granny lead' (although of course you knew that), and you can get just under 3kwh out of it which gives roughly 72kw into the battery, which is a lot. Most electric cars are 50 or 60 kwh, only the flash ones are bigger, and a home charge point is not that pricey with the govt chucking in a third of the cost. But the reality is a 7kwh charger is sensible if you have a flash, long range EV. Good point.

 

It's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, so I will stop there. One thing I will say is I don't really care about the opinions of those who prove themselves ill informed, but fire away.

Edited 5 February 2022 by Vardinio'sCat

[Vardinio'sCat]

On 04/02/2022 at 01:29, Bptiger said:

Well it’s confirmed , a lot of British people have been brain washed by Boris and his GREEN wife , ur power bills have gone through the roof and don’t look like coming down soon , more likely they will increase . Maybe if there was equal time for those scientists who don’t totally agree with all this climate crap , u might get a different view , but u just keep ur heads stuck in the sand 

 

Australia is, alongside the US, one of the most skeptical about electric cars, and the geography is more difficult for them, no question about that. I would expect the transition to be slower where the conditions are more demanding, so don't worry, the technology is being proven elsewhere, in China and Europe.

 

PS Has anyone in Oz thought of buying a home battery? works well with solar and then you are running on sunshine at no marginal cost, which makes the oil companies (and you) really, really angry, although I have no idea why.

 

 

Edited 5 February 2022 by Vardinio'sCat

[Vardinio'sCat]

I would like to try and steer things a bit back in terms of general greenness. I'm kind of thinking that a group who derives most of their income from airport concessions is not a comfortable fit with counting the carbons, but I would have expected them to be modern on other aspects. At least the newts got some love!

 

It is possible to be good on some stuff, and less good on others. I'm torn on the clappers, because it allows everyone to make a racket, but I do like the kitchen garden aspect.

[Bptiger]

54 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Australia is, alongside the US, one of the most skeptical about electric cars, and the geography is more difficult for them, no question about that. I would expect the transition to be slower where the conditions are more demanding, so don't worry, the technology is being proven elsewhere, in China and Europe.

 

PS Has anyone in Oz thought of buying a home battery? works well with solar and then you are running on sunshine at no marginal cost, which makes the oil companies (and you) really, really angry, although I have no idea why.

 

 

The price of batteries in Australia is extremely expensive, only the well healed can afford them 

[Vardinio'sCat]

1 hour ago, Bptiger said:

The price of batteries in Australia is extremely expensive, only the well healed can afford them 

 

Tbf, it's mainly for posh folks here in the UK at the mo. I bought a car a year ago, and it has stop/start and cylinder deactivation, but it is still a fossil car. None of the hybrids had enough electric range to be very attractive at my price bracket, and as I don't have off street parking it would have been a big pain to juice up at the pathetic rates achievable by what I could afford. I'm green but I'm also a realist, and they certainly aren't for everyone just yet.

 

In the blessed EU they are throwing subsidies around like it is the end of days (and maybe they have a point), and they are much more competitive. I believe the big subsidies also apply to lease cars in Germany, which explains some of the enthusiasm, because the youth seem to lease more than old gits like me.

 

I'm not saying everybody should change tomorrow, because in this country the numbers don't add up for me personally, or for most drivers. As concerned by the direction of travel as I am, I don't have that extra 10k up front to throw at it. If I lived in France or Germany I would have probably been able to get something I could live with second hand, because the new stuff being subsidised affects used prices. But I'm ready to go when it all comes in range.

 

I think domestic batteries will largely be made of cheaper battery chemistries in future, it's a thing that can work well to get your energy at the cheapest times of day. We are having a massive energy price spike over here, but sadly we have small homes so throwing in 200kg of batteries is not for everyone, but like with good insulation, the least showy tech can be the most efficient. There certainly is virtue signalling in solar and wind etc, and I understand there is nothing worse than a jet-setter flaunting their green fig leaves as if we should be grateful.

 

I think it is has reached a tipping point though, or you could say a period of disruption, but only in the new car market as yet in this country. I appreciate this is not the case in Oz, but every year the costs of manufacture are going down, batteries are getting bigger (in capacity) but not heavier, and charging speeds have improved significantly, pretty much across the board. In China they are starting phase out subsidies on electric cars because they don't really need it in their domestic market., unfortunately that is also happening here in the UK, where they do.

 

I could start banging on about the reliability of the electric motor, but I've over-answered one to many times on this thread. I'm sorry Teapot annoyed me, but it's bad enough being bs'd about footie.  People need to know they work ok for many drivers, and if you can charge at home the future looks rosy. The rest of us will probably be along when the charging hits something like 15 minutes for 2/3 of a tank, which only really the very best, most optimised cars can get close to now, at a price ordinary folk can afford. Road pricing will be a bummer though, can't really see an alternative to that.

 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Tbf, it's mainly for posh folks here in the UK at the mo. I bought a car a year ago, and it has stop/start and cylinder deactivation, but it is still a fossil car. None of the hybrids had enough electric range to be very attractive at my price bracket, and as I don't have off street parking it would have been a big pain to juice up at the pathetic rates achievable by what I could afford. I'm green but I'm also a realist, and they certainly aren't for everyone just yet.

 

In the blessed EU they are throwing subsidies around like it is the end of days (and maybe they have a point), and they are much more competitive. I believe the big subsidies also apply to lease cars in Germany, which explains some of the enthusiasm, because the youth seem to lease more than old gits like me.

 

I'm not saying everybody should change tomorrow, because in this country the numbers don't add up for me personally, or for most drivers. As concerned by the direction of travel as I am, I don't have that extra 10k up front to throw at it. If I lived in France or Germany I would have probably been able to get something I could live with second hand, because the new stuff being subsidised affects used prices. But I'm ready to go when it all comes in range.

 

I think domestic batteries will largely be made of cheaper battery chemistries in future, it's a thing that can work well to get your energy at the cheapest times of day. We are having a massive energy price spike over here, but sadly we have small homes so throwing in 200kg of batteries is not for everyone, but like with good insulation, the least showy tech can be the most efficient. There certainly is virtue signalling in solar and wind etc, and I understand there is nothing worse than a jet-setter flaunting their green fig leaves as if we should be grateful.

 

I think it is has reached a tipping point though, or you could say a period of disruption, but only in the new car market as yet in this country. I appreciate this is not the case in Oz, but every year the costs of manufacture are going down, batteries are getting bigger (in capacity) but not heavier, and charging speeds have improved significantly, pretty much across the board. In China they are starting phase out subsidies on electric cars because they don't really need it in their domestic market., unfortunately that is also happening here in the UK, where they do.

 

I could start banging on about the reliability of the electric motor, but I've over-answered one to many times on this thread. I'm sorry Teapot annoyed me, but it's bad enough being bs'd about footie.  People need to know they work ok for many drivers, and if you can charge at home the future looks rosy. The rest of us will probably be along when the charging hits something like 15 minutes for 2/3 of a tank, which only really the very best, most optimised cars can get close to now, at a price ordinary folk can afford. Road pricing will be a bummer though, can't really see an alternative to that.

 

Yep. Being BS'd about the future of (at least some of) human civilisation is almost as bad as those trying to make excuses for Peter Taylor as Leicester manager.

 

Change is necessary, and happening, and trust the science and roll with it, please. For the sake of future generations.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

5 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

Anything over half an hour?  You have just shown how little you know, an eight year old Nissan Leaf is not the reference point in 2022.

 

Build the chargers and they will come. It helps to get folks started to have a few chargers for not huge money, subsidised by the Workplace grant scheme, it shouldn't be a big deal on a £100 million pound site. Of course, some of these staff will have driving habits that might not be much fun in what they can afford, you really need a Tesla to if you are a motorway specialist for some reason. And I would argue that high mileage motorway monsters are a good few years from being served well by anything on the used market. It is the leased market end-of-contract vehicles that need to come on strong before that happens, I guess.

 

I follow Bjorn Nyland, who is probably the man, in terms of real world information on EV's, have you even heard the name before?and I did aspire to car journalism, but most of the journalists I met were knobs, so I never got further than work experience and newspaper journalism training.

 

So you know your CCS from your Chademo and your type 2? Your Zap map from ABRP? Do you understand charging curves and their importance? Do you understand battery temperature management, pre-heating etc? Do you understand the impact of wind, rain, elevation and temperature on range? Do you know about the recent load switching tech being used in the latest charger clusters? Have you ever heard of Lucid? Do you understand the effect of wheel size on range, are bigger or smaller better?

 

This plug socket that takes over 24 hours is probably what is known as a 'granny lead' (although of course you knew that), and you can get just under 3kwh out of it which gives roughly 72kw into the battery, which is a lot. Most electric cars are 50 or 60 kwh, only the flash ones are bigger, and a home charge point is not that pricey with the govt chucking in a third of the cost. But the reality is a 7kwh charger is sensible if you have a flash, long range EV. Good point.

 

It's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, so I will stop there. One thing I will say is I don't really care about the opinions of those who prove themselves ill informed, but fire away.

Mate I've got one, and know several others who do. We all agree on them.

 

They're a pain in the arse and massively oversold. Also some very good articles on the FT about the overselling of them and how currently they're nowhere near as green as they're made out to be....yet. As soon as they're cold or the weather is adverse there's a problem. And it's not my particular model that this is unique to. 

 

To go back to my original point though before you started walking yourself silly over how much you think you know about cars..... it'll be a while before the players go electric.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

1 hour ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

I'm sorry Teapot annoyed me, but it's bad enough being bs'd about footie.  

 

Because I made a point about the players not wanting electric cars and not being conned about the club going green because they've installed a few charging points so you decided to cast me as a climate change denier? Think you annoyed yourself here.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

On 04/02/2022 at 05:54, Dahnsouff said:

So you are suggesting what exactly? We should concede the whole game to climate change? Or maybe you have some generational concept to promote? I do hope it’s not the all too easy option c of pointless naysaying.  

I'm actually suggesting that if the club wanted to seriously look at its green impact I'd look at the use of single use plastic at the training ground and football ground (why on earth do we produce leicester city branded plastic bottles?) and look at the infrastructure around travel to games (eg - flying players to games, charging infrastructure around king power stadium, train access, public transport access). Installing a few charging points for players that don't want them won't really solve a lot but it appears to have impressed everyone on here.

Edited 5 February 2022 by Chocolate Teapot

[Dahnsouff]

6 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

I'm actually suggesting that if the club wanted to seriously look at its green impact I'd look at the use of single use plastic at the training ground and football ground (why on earth do we produce leicester city branded plastic bottles?) and look at the infrastructure around travel to games (eg - flying players to games, charging infrastructure around king power stadium, train access, public transport access). Installing a few charging points for players that don't want them won't really solve a lot but it appears to have impressed everyone on here.

On this I completely agree, it is infinitely more important than the charging points, which although not ridiculous, are in comparison to the points you propose. 

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

I'm actually suggesting that if the club wanted to seriously look at its green impact I'd look at the use of single use plastic at the training ground and football ground (why on earth do we produce leicester city branded plastic bottles?) and look at the infrastructure around travel to games (eg - flying players to games, charging infrastructure around king power stadium, train access, public transport access). Installing a few charging points for players that don't want them won't really solve a lot but it appears to have impressed everyone on here.

Fair points tbh, though I would interject that apart from the carbon cost to create them, plastic pollution and carbon emissions leading to global average temperature increase are two separate but important issues.

 

But yes, a tech change on a much bigger scale is needed - that is going to have to come from power generation as well as changing transportation methods. The good news is it is possible to make this change in infrastructure without reducing basic quality of life at all, if the will is there. While flying and driving less would help, we don't have to do that, just focus on changing the vehicles we use for it ASAP.

[Spudulike]

I would most likely be driving an EV now if I didn't live 135 miles from Leicester. Don't think it's practical for me until they increase the range. 

[Vardinio'sCat]

5 hours ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Mate I've got one, and know several others who do. We all agree on them.

 

They're a pain in the arse and massively oversold. Also some very good articles on the FT about the overselling of them and how currently they're nowhere near as green as they're made out to be....yet. As soon as they're cold or the weather is adverse there's a problem. And it's not my particular model that this is unique to. 

 

To go back to my original point though before you started walking yourself silly over how much you think you know about cars..... it'll be a while before the players go electric.

 

So you (and your friends) bought without doing the research, believed an unscrupulous salesman, jumped a bit too early, or were perhaps pushed onto them by your work inappropriately? I have sympathy if that is the case, but you don't even have ignorance as an excuse for that half an hour claim, without any qualification whatsoever, which is misleading imho.

 

You keep throwing out BS here continually, they are cleaner than fossils no matter how the electricity is generated, although the difference is not huge if the power is pure coal based. I'm sorry you have had a bad experience, but most folks with home charging and a reasonable range for their individual use case are not struggling. Again, the information on user satisfaction does not tally with your view, but it's all out there for those who wish to look.

 

Ultimately it is the satisfaction of users on cost, reliability and convenience that will win out. I have a friend who chose a Mini Electric over the regular one on lease, which was a bit brave because the Mini has poor range for this day and age (especially in the cold, wet and wind), although the designers made a conscious decision to not go with a big battery because it costs more and affects the trademark Mini go-cart handling. After a few scares getting used to charging out and about and such she learned about using the app for pre-heating before unplugging in the morning, and using the seat heaters more than other forms, and is at a point where she is saving so much money on fuel she will take a bit of inconvenience on the odd occaision.

 

So why have you and your friends got cars that don't do what you think they should, are you suffering with coldgating as well as disappointing range? I appreciate that not every EV has the latest and greatest tech, but FF car users know the fuel economy figures quoted by the manufacturers are difficult or impossible to achieve, and the same applies to electrics.

 

I highly recommend Bjorn Nyland's work, many people wait for his excellent reviews before committing to a car, because the manufacturers report differently. Porsche are known to undersell the range on their cars to avoid confusion, and if I was in charge I would force all manufacturers to do the same.

 

 

One thing I will say is that some will get caught out by the different world that is an electric car, because there are foibles to learn, which we accept on FF cars but barely notice them. For example, getting into a regular car, starting and then flooring it is not sensible, so we don't do it. Getting a car that is marginal for your use case is not a good idea however it is powered, and high speed long-range motorway work is still the preserve of FF cars unless you have Tesla and access to their reliable supercharger network.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vardinio'sCat]

7 hours ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Because I made a point about the players not wanting electric cars and not being conned about the club going green because they've installed a few charging points so you decided to cast me as a climate change denier? Think you annoyed yourself here.

 

I agree a few chargers is not going to make a huge difference, I did say that somewhere. I'm not calling you a CC denier, but you are are making a hash of your credibility with your FUD on EV's.

 

I get you have a problem, but go and look at the surveys of EV users, most don't and to pretend they do because you are butt-hurt is misinformation.

[Vardinio'sCat]

7 hours ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

I'm actually suggesting that if the club wanted to seriously look at its green impact I'd look at the use of single use plastic at the training ground and football ground (why on earth do we produce leicester city branded plastic bottles?) and look at the infrastructure around travel to games (eg - flying players to games, charging infrastructure around king power stadium, train access, public transport access). Installing a few charging points for players that don't want them won't really solve a lot but it appears to have impressed everyone on here.

 

Finally I agree with you on something and I said as much back up the thread. But it costs peanuts to put in a few destination chargers, so it isn't like you can either do these other things or put some in.

Edited 5 February 2022 by Vardinio'sCat

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

10 minutes ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

So you (and your friends) bought without doing the research, believed an unscrupulous salesman, jumped a bit too early, or were perhaps pushed onto them by your work inappropriately? I have sympathy if that is the case, but you don't even have ignorance as an excuse for that half an hour claim, without any qualification whatsoever, which is misleading imho.

 

You keep throwing out BS here continually, they are cleaner than fossils no matter how the electricity is generated, although the difference is not huge if the power is pure coal based. I'm sorry you have had a bad experience, but most folks with home charging and a reasonable range for their individual use case are not struggling. Again, the information on user satisfaction does not tally with your view, but it's all out there for those who wish to look.

 

Ultimately it is the satisfaction of users on cost, reliability and convenience that will win out. I have a friend who chose a Mini Electric over the regular one on lease, which was a bit brave because the Mini has poor range for this day and age (especially in the cold, wet and wind), although the designers made a conscious decision to not go with a big battery because it costs more and affects the trademark Mini go-cart handling. After a few scares getting used to charging out and about and such she learned about using the app for pre-heating before unplugging in the morning, and using the seat heaters more than other forms, and is at a point where she is saving so much money on fuel she will take a bit of inconvenience on the odd occaision.

 

So why have you and your friends got cars that don't do what you think they should, are you suffering with coldgating as well as disappointing range? I appreciate that not every EV has the latest and greatest tech, but FF car users know the fuel economy figures quoted by the manufacturers are difficult or impossible to achieve, and the same applies to electrics.

 

I highly recommend Bjorn Nyland's work, many people wait for his excellent reviews before committing to a car, because the manufacturers report differently. Porsche are known to undersell the range on their cars to avoid confusion, and if I was in charge I would force all manufacturers to do the same.

 

 

One thing I will say is that some will get caught out by the different world that is an electric car, because there are foibles to learn, which we accept on FF cars but barely notice them. For example, getting into a regular car, starting and then flooring it is not sensible, so we don't do it. Getting a car that is marginal for your use case is not a good idea however it is powered, and high speed long-range motorway work is still the preserve of FF cars unless you have Tesla and access to their reliable supercharger network.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus. You  must be fun at parties. Absolutely fine with my choice and you've missed my entire point but I'm pleased if you feel better writing all you know about electric cars.

[Vardinio'sCat]

10 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

Jesus. You  must be fun at parties. Absolutely fine with my choice and you've missed my entire point but I'm pleased if you feel better writing all you know about electric cars.

 

I know loads more mate. I'll let others judge but you haven't fessed up why you have the wrong car, or backed up your claims on range and 'green-ness'. And how can you say you are happy with your choice given your complaints?

 

Turns out I don't just read some s**t off Top Gear, do come again.

Edited 5 February 2022 by Vardinio'sCat

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

7 hours ago, Vardinio'sCat said:

 

I know loads more mate.

We're all here for it.

[Freeman's Wharfer]

I’m not sure why anyone would expect a club owned by a company that makes its money from airport duty free to have sustainability high on the agenda!

[sacreblueits442]

6 minutes ago, Freeman's Wharfer said:

I’m not sure why anyone would expect a club owned by a company that makes its money from airport duty free to have sustainability high on the agenda!

....welll, they have, and so far they are living up to their promise!!!

 

[Grebfromgrebland]

10 hours ago, Spudulike said:

I would most likely be driving an EV now if I didn't live 135 miles from Leicester. Don't think it's practical for me until they increase the range. 

What's the issue?

[Spudulike]

8 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

What's the issue?

270 mile round trip on mostly motorway in the winter. There would have to be a long stop for a recharge at some point which would make the day very long. 

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

1 hour ago, Spudulike said:

270 mile round trip on mostly motorway in the winter. There would have to be a long stop for a recharge at some point which would make the day very long. 

And what you'd find is lots of chargers are out of service when you get to them (or used if they are working as most sites only have 2). I'm sure Bjorn Nyland would tell me its really simple though and dishonest for me to claim that.

[leicsmac]

The infrastructure for EV's will get there in time, just as the tech itself is progressing. 

 

There will come a day, not far away, where they have as much range and efficiency as combustion engine vehicles. It might not be for a couple of decades, but it isn't far off.