Ukraine

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, Dunge said:

With Xi, it strikes me that whoever tries to back him into a corner first loses. He doesn’t want to be “alone” against the West. But neither does he want an expansionist Russia that’s finished looking west and is now considering other compass points. I do imagine he genuinely wants the war done one way or another, but is making copious notes about how the West is responding to each event.

This is right - it's far too complex to be reduced to a simple good/bad dichotomy.

[MPH]

I will add that China seems to be slowly positioning itself as the worlds chief negotiator and appears to trying to wrestle ‘ world authority’ away from the U.S, and seems  to be gaining some success in that area too. They have recently brokered a deal to restore ties between Iran and Saudi Arabia and that’s huge. It’s huge even if it’s just because it’s the opposite of what the U.S wanted. It serves Washington well to have ‘ Arch enemies’ pitted  against each other simply because to takes up the time, energy and resources away from a regional foe ( Iran). To bring trust back into that area doesn’t serve Washington’s purpose. Don’t be surprised to see China try and exert more influence on Russia to bring an end to the war purely for the reason of having more influence on a global scale. It will do China no harm at all to be seen as brokering a peace deal - something that the U.S seems unable/ unwilling to do..

Edited 14 March 2023 by MPH

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, Lionator said:

There’s multiple reasons why China will not arm Russia. Firstly, China and Ukraine actually have a very good relationship, and the CCP being the CCP will see this as an opportunity to basically rebuild Ukraine, and with Ukraine essentially a failed state they’ll get the cheapest option to do it which will be China. Second, China is not going to destroy 50-60 years of economic growth through trade, to sell weapons to Russia. Russia will be nothing more than a client state to China at the end of the war. It’s simply not feasible. Xi wants this done, and on his terms. He is pretty much the only man who can offer Putin a way out in terms of offering him strategic stability.

 

As a b-side, the growing confrontational rhetoric with China frustrates me. Of course they’re a strategic foe to the west, but unlike Russia, their population are not indoctrinated to hate us. There’s opportunity out there for collaboration and there still always should be imo despite the actions of the CCP. 

And given they're now something of an economic behemoth who can bring considerable "soft power" to bear, collaboration with them on some matters that concern the entire world may be a matter of necessity.

 

I think that most of the powers that be in London and Washington understand that, though.

[fox_up_north]

It's such a shame that the CCP feel the need to be so controlling of their people and commit some awful things/ human rights violations against minority groups.

 

They have it all to be a respected and amazing contributor to the world. I do think that if we put our heads together with them, we could solve (or at least go some way to solving) some global problems. 

 

I just hope they don't "help" end the war then put Ukraine into so much debt rebuilding that it can't be repaid. It should be Russia that owes them, not Ukraine owing China. 

[Mike Oxlong]

Looks like Ukraine will be even more in the shit if the Republicans win the next US election 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, fox_up_north said:

It's such a shame that the CCP feel the need to be so controlling of their people and commit some awful things/ human rights violations against minority groups.

 

They have it all to be a respected and amazing contributor to the world. I do think that if we put our heads together with them, we could solve (or at least go some way to solving) some global problems. 

 

I just hope they don't "help" end the war then put Ukraine into so much debt rebuilding that it can't be repaid. It should be Russia that owes them, not Ukraine owing China. 

I think the western powers that be have to be pragmatic and consider both that the system in China is morally reprehensible in a lot of ways, and that system is all all likelihood here to stay and we're not going to talk or browbeat them away from it, we simply don't have the power (and even if we did, that would be an ethical debate in of itself), and to look to both challenge and collaborate where needed, depending on the task - because the world will need their help with some issues.

 

56 minutes ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Looks like Ukraine will be even more in the shit if the Republicans win the next US election 

And that is near the top of a very, very long list of reasons why they must not win.

[marbles]

9 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Looks like Ukraine will be even more in the shit if the Republicans win the next US election 

starting the propaganda early I see 

[SpacedX]

9 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Looks like Ukraine will be even more in the shit if the Republicans win the next US election 

The entire world and the future of humanity will be even more in the shit if the Republicans win the next US election. 

[Mike Oxlong]

6 minutes ago, marbles said:

starting the propaganda early I see 

Donald, is that you ?  

[marbles]

I really don’t wanna go back and forth in a thread about a war.

Edited 15 March 2023 by marbles

[Mike Oxlong]

That’s fine 

 

This is the sort of thing I was basing my post on 

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/02/ron-desantis-goes-full-trump-on-ukraine.html

 

Tbh, I wasn’t aware of it being contentious 

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, Mike Oxlong said:

That’s fine 

 

This is the sort of thing I was basing my post on 

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/02/ron-desantis-goes-full-trump-on-ukraine.html

 

Tbh, I wasn’t aware of it being contentious 

... apparently there are folks who do actually think such a government would be a good thing in terms of international relations and (more important to me) scientific policy which concerns the future of our species.

 

Takes all sorts, I guess.

[fox_favourite]

To me, it does feel that Ukraine war has sparked the world into a place of distrust and anger. I don’t think the American government are helping at all. They seem to be upsetting a lot of countries. Then again, there are some far too aggressive language and actions coming from other nations.
 

It’s so frustrating that the people who suffer the most are just ordinary people who just want to live their lives and have no desire for all this. Shame we all can’t just put the leaders in a room with a massive board of the earth and let them fight it out with toy solders and toy rockets. As most of this is the will of a select few, but those few are in power. It’s all pointless if you ask me with too many people suffering everywhere 

Edited 17 March 2023 by fox_favourite

[TJQuik]

I don't want to get into a protracted discussion about this but I find the lack of opposition to escalation that could end life on earth extremely disturbing.

[Dunge]

16 minutes ago, TJQuik said:

I don't want to get into a protracted discussion about this but I find the lack of opposition to escalation that could end life on earth extremely disturbing.

What exactly are you arguing for here? Obviously nobody wants nukes flying but what’s your exact point?

 

ie. What would you do?

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, Dunge said:

What exactly are you arguing for here? Obviously nobody wants nukes flying but what’s your exact point?

 

ie. What would you do?

Can't speak for the poster themselves, but...

 

Yeah, no one outside of the truly insane wants nukes flying about, but the problem with nuclear holocaust is the "sorry-guv-didn't-mean-it-to-go-this-far-and-it-was-supposed-to-be-all-talk" type is pretty much the same as the "deliberate" type. So with that in mind, perhaps less ignorant rhetoric and advocacy for situations where such nuclear exchange is more likely to happen (such as threatening the existence of the Russian state, as much as they may deserve it), while in terms of action doing enough to keep Ukraine going?

 

Cooler heads all round, in short.

[fox_favourite]

The guy from the American military who did a press conference about the drone collision actively said at one point something like - “we are not looking for a war with Russia”. The problem is, Putin is starting to act out of control, North Korea are getting louder and threatening nukes. I with Mac. There needs to be a period of deescalation (how to do it, not sure but that’s what governments are there for) would help, while keeping Ukraine going. 
 

I also think I need to sleep! 3am posting might be slightly worrying

Edited 17 March 2023 by fox_favourite

[MPH]

International criminal Court issues an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin.

 

Probably won’t effect him in the short term but could be severely restrictive when he finally relinquishes power. But really, probably an added incentive for him to cling to power for as long as possible.

[Trav Le Bleu]

19 minutes ago, MPH said:

International criminal Court issues an arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin.

 

Probably won’t effect him in the short term but could be severely restrictive when he finally relinquishes power. But really, probably an added incentive for him to cling to power for as long as possible.

This is what I thought.

 

The only hope is someone might sell him out.

[TJQuik]

Did you know the United States passed a law which allows them to invade the hague if any american personnel are detained by the ICC?

[SpacedX]

43 minutes ago, TJQuik said:

Did you know the United States passed a law which allows them to invade the hague if any american personnel are detained by the ICC?

 I'd forgotten about this. The American Service Members Protection Act was passed in the time between the Afghan and Iraqi wars. Pentagon officials wanted to avoid war crimes arrests by an untested world court – a body they feared might make anti-American political statements, rather than stick to its legal obligations. The Dutch pretty much regard it as a joke, but nonetheless, I fully expected to see it rescinded during Obama's term. 

 

Here is what is says - Section. 2008. of the Act authorises the President of the U.S. "to use all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any person described in subsection (b) who is being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".

 

In 2021, Biden lifted the Trump-era sanctions against the heads of the ICC's 'Jurisdiction, Complementarity and Cooperation Division'. Meanwhile, the ASMPA is largely regarded in terms of unilaterally binding international law as an anachronistic cowboy act of congress, that would be impossible to invoke, containing more legal loopholes than a block of Edam. 

[TJQuik]

10 minutes ago, Line-X said:

 I'd forgotten about this. The American Service Members Protection Act was passed in the time between the Afghan and Iraqi wars. Pentagon officials wanted to avoid war crimes arrests by an untested world court – a body they feared might make anti-American political statements, rather than stick to its legal obligations. The Dutch pretty much regard it as a joke, but nonetheless, I fully expected to see it rescinded during Obama's term. 

 

Here is what is says - Section. 2008. of the Act authorises the President of the U.S. "to use all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any person described in subsection (b) who is being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".

 

In 2021, Biden lifted the Trump-era sanctions against the heads of the ICC's 'Jurisdiction, Complementarity and Cooperation Division'. Meanwhile, the ASMPA is largely regarded in terms of unilaterally binding international law as an anachronistic cowboy act of congress, that would be impossible to invoke, containing more legal loopholes than a block of Edam. 

Prosecuting them for their countless war crimes is a political statement?

[SpacedX]

6 minutes ago, TJQuik said:

Prosecuting them for their countless war crimes is a political statement?

Of course not. I was simply summarising the flawed rationale behind it as opposed to advocating it or taking a stance. Nothing to do with me, ask those that voted for it in Congress. 

Edited 17 March 2023 by Line-X

[TJQuik]

1 hour ago, Line-X said:

Of course not. I was simply summarising the flawed rationale behind it as opposed to advocating it or taking a stance. Nothing to do with me, ask those that voted for it in Congress. 

Apologies, I was making a comment about their explanation but I can see how it looked like I was having a go at you.

[MPH]

I mean, I’m sure we knew it already, but here is proof of Putin’s body doubles he’s using… as if he’d really go to Mariupol himself