Stadium expansion

[davieG]

1 minute ago, foxinsocks said:

The value will be lower in the championship.   Maybe throw in a chance to meet the manager at full time 

Or maybe have a ballot to see who throws the manager out at full time.

[davieG]

An example of an agreed 106 contribution which we seemingly have not yet agreed for our submission although improvements to the Raw Dykes which we've already agreed should be part of it. I'd like to think they're waiting on the Ivanhoe line and it would be to fund a Station or part of it.

 

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/new-117-home-estate-set-7714047

 

A bid to build 117 new homes on the site of a former bus depot has been submitted to Leicester City Council. The old Abbey Park Road Bus and Tram Depot was left devastated by a fire in 1999, kick-starting moves to find a new depot elsewhere in the city.

The proposal has been approved by the city’s planning officers, who say it fits in with the aims and aspiration for the area, which the council has earmarked for regeneration. The main access to the site would be via an extension of the existing Wolsley Island Way road.

 

The applicant has also agreed to make a section 106 contribution of around £202,000 with the council which will be used for improvements to Abbey Park. A Section 106 agreement is a legally-binding contract that ties developers in to making financial contributions to ensure local services and infrastructure can cope with a higher population as a result of new developments.

 

 

 

[Stadt]

There's over 1,000,000 in Leicestershire, our catchment area extends south and east of the county too. Kettering, Corby, Northampton, Oakham and Stamford etc 

 

We've averaged just shy of 32,000 every year since we came up.

 

Season	Competition	Matches	sold out	Spectators	Average
22/23	Premier League	5	0	158,370	31,674
21/22	Premier League	19	0	606,869	31,940
20/21	Premier League	19	0	8,000	421
19/20	Premier League	19	0	480,920	25,312
18/19	Premier League	19	0	605,161	31,851
17/18	Premier League	19	0	600,083	31,583
16/17	Premier League	19	5	605,968	31,893
15/16	Premier League	19	1	608,393	32,021
14/15	Premier League	19	2	602,165	31,693

 

 

Sunderland were averaging around 42k in the PL and it's a smaller and less affluent place than Leicestershire

Wolves average 31k

Derby are averaging 27k this season whilst in league 1

 

We have the population to sustain 40k+ quite easily, the only thing that will stop that is ticket pricing. Given our horrendous match day pricing, we probably won't.

Edited 18 October 2022 by Stadt

[Terraloon]

11 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Expanding to an extra 8 thousand? Hardly big time is it? The whole expansion is more about the periphery ie hotel accommodation living accommodation, sports arena, and imagery of the stadium than it is about extra seating. I would have thought that evident to most people.

Therein is the point and of course to a degree the folly of the whole project.

 

History tells us that football clubs building and owning hotels really doesn’t turnout that well. 
 

Ken Bates believed that building around Stamford  Bridge adding hotels, night clubs restaurants sports clubs etc would generate significant cash flow , it didn’t and hasn’t even when you threw in the expensive flats that were build in an affluent area the return on the massive investment never materialised.

To deliver the sort of return being mentioned ( circa £20-£25 million pa ) is just pie in the sky. Having the facilities is one thing but selling them is another. I haven’t seen what the estimated build costs were when the project was put together but the more relevant number will e what they will cost when and if the build actually happens.  
 

If you look just at the price of Steel the price has risen 200% since 2020 and with energy prices rising steeply and of of course the Ukrainian war then it’s safe to assume by the time the first steel is delivered a minimum of double digit rise will have come about.

 

Spurs couldn’t get a fixed price for their stadium and that was at a time of low inflation and as we know their build  costs rose from £500 million to a quoted £1 billion and yes they borrowed vast sums over a long period at decent rates but the fact remains that they are still paying between £20-30 million interest pa and that’s before you even talk about the capital.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stadt]

22 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

Therein is the point and of course to a degree the folly of the whole project.

 

History tells us that football clubs building and owning hotels really doesn’t turnout that well. 
 

Ken Bates believed that building around Stamford  Bridge adding hotels, night clubs restaurants sports clubs etc would generate significant cash flow , it didn’t and hasn’t even when you threw in the expensive flats that were build in an affluent area the return on the massive investment never materialised.

To deliver the sort of return being mentioned ( circa £20-£25 million pa ) is just pie in the sky. Having the facilities is one thing but selling them is another. I haven’t seen what the estimated build costs were when the project was put together but the more relevant number will e what they will cost when and if the build actually happens.  
 

If you look just at the price of Steel the price has risen 200% since 2020 and with energy prices rising steeply and of of course the Ukrainian war then it’s safe to assume by the time the first steel is delivered a minimum of double digit rise will have come about.

 

Spurs couldn’t get a fixed price for their stadium and that was at a time of low inflation and as we know their build  costs rose from £500 million to a quoted £1 billion and yes they borrowed vast sums over a long period at decent rates but the fact remains that they are still paying between £20-30 million interest pa and that’s before you even talk about the capital.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm guessing the club will be paying for the stadium development and offices but King Power will be funding the arena, hotel and residential block etc. 

[sacreblueits442]

59 minutes ago, foxinsocks said:

The value will be lower in the championship.   Maybe throw in a chance to meet the manager at full time 

...I  really do not think Rodgers would like that too much!!!

  He already darts for the tunnel at the end of games, why would you want to inflict more pain on the man?

[jerry]

2 minutes ago, Stadt said:

I'm guessing the club will be paying for the stadium development and offices but King Power will be funding the arena, hotel and residential block etc. 

With the current financial situation and the club going into a period of uncertainty i'm surprised that this hasn't been mothballed / or even scrapped . If the Club are reticent about sacking Rodgers due to financial concerns does any of this still make sense ?

[davieG]

6 minutes ago, Stadt said:

I'm guessing the club will be paying for the stadium development and offices but King Power will be funding the arena, hotel and residential block etc. 

King Power own the stadium so I would assume they'll fund it all and LCFC will pay a fee to use them and pocket the revenues which again I assume they do something similar with the stadium as it is.

[davieG]

2 minutes ago, jerry said:

With the current financial situation and the club going into a period of uncertainty i'm surprised that this hasn't been mothballed / or even scrapped . If the Club are reticent about sacking Rodgers due to financial concerns does any of this still make sense ?

Aren't the financial concerns to do with FFP not the finance of KP, I'm sure they still have ambitions to extend their portfolio outside of Thailand.

[Stadt]

Just now, jerry said:

With the current financial situation and the club going into a period of uncertainty i'm surprised that this hasn't been mothballed / or even scrapped . If the Club are reticent about sacking Rodgers due to financial concerns does any of this still make sense ?

The benefit to KP and the club will be massive over 10, 20, 30 years etc. The financial situation is rocky atm but cancelling everything only to resume in 3 years would seem like a huge waste of time - the sooner it's built, the sooner we benefit. Our wage bill is the main concern at the moment and come the 1st of July it'll be cut down by a third.

[Spudulike]

12 hours ago, PAPA LAZAROU said:

Expanding to an extra 8 thousand? Hardly big time is it? The whole expansion is more about the periphery ie hotel accommodation living accommodation, sports arena, and imagery of the stadium than it is about extra seating. I would have thought that evident to most people.

Of course it is. I don't think anyone doubts that. Perhaps I misinterpreted your post as I thought you were making the case for no extra seats. 

[MarriedaLeicesterGirl]

1 hour ago, Stadt said:

 

We have the population to sustain 40k+ quite easily, the only thing that will stop that is ticket pricing. Given our horrendous match day pricing, we probably won't.

Actually, if we stay in the Premier League, the pricing won't be an issue: General sales will. Currently, tickets only go to members (or friends of season ticket holders). I have had three people in the last week tell me they couldn't buy tickets to the Leeds game without a membership.

 

As I have said on this thread many times: The club doesn't even try to sell tickets, due to us meeting capacity. If they don't automatically sell out at 40,000, they would just have to advertise availability, which they don't currently.

[Stadt]

Just now, MarriedaLeicesterGirl said:

Actually, if we stay in the Premier League, the pricing won't be an issue: General sales will. Currently, tickets only go to members (or friends of season ticket holders). I have had three people in the last week tell me they couldn't buy tickets to the Leeds game without a membership.

 

As I have said on this thread many times: The club doesn't even try to sell tickets, due to us meeting capacity. If they don't automatically sell out at 40,000, they would just have to advertise availability, which they don't currently.

The membership policy is insane. Shifting an additional 5000 memberships (seems unlikely) but putting off 20,000 (?) individual supporters from buying tickets because they can't buy one is insane. It's a not a surprise of our finances are a mess when we actively prevent fans from buying tickets.

[WarehamFox]

21 hours ago, An Sionnach said:

Bilbao is a city with almost the same population as Leicester with a very comparable football team yet has a 52,000 capacity stadium like this:- 

Not sure why, but that reminds me of a mix of Lee Circle and the old ABC cinema that was on Belgrave Gate. 🫣

[An Sionnach]

27 minutes ago, WarehamFox said:

Not sure why, but that reminds me of a mix of Lee Circle and the old ABC cinema that was on Belgrave Gate. 🫣

The architecture of the building is a matter of subjective taste but the ambition of the club is there to see. If you build , they will come as they say. . An isolated city like Bilbao has nothing like the hinterland of Leicester. This city has spent too long hiding its light under a bushel ,I sometimes think it revels in being invisible. After the PL win , when for a time we were world famous we should have capitalised massively.

Edited 18 October 2022 by An Sionnach

[Spudulike]

1 hour ago, An Sionnach said:

The architecture of the building is a matter of subjective taste but the ambition of the club is there to see. If you build , they will come as they say. . An isolated city like Bilbao has nothing like the hinterland of Leicester. This city has spent too long hiding its light under a bushel ,I sometimes think it revels in being invisible. After the PL win , when for a time we were world famous we should have capitalised massively.

We are the Lost City.... 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23976671

 

[Stadt]

Metropolis of Dissent it the coolest moniker the city's ever been given.

 

 

 

 

[PAPA LAZAROU]

6 hours ago, Spudulike said:

Of course it is. I don't think anyone doubts that. Perhaps I misinterpreted your post as I thought you were making the case for no extra seats. 

Well no not really. Of course, the extra seating should sell no problem. And in time maybe if we continue to be successful they will add more.

[sacreblueits442]

9 hours ago, jerry said:

With the current financial situation and the club going into a period of uncertainty i'm surprised that this hasn't been mothballed / or even scrapped . If the Club are reticent about sacking Rodgers due to financial concerns does any of this still make sense ?

...our problem is revenue against salaries!!!

  Irrespective of how we use the revenue ( tv money) it will still be the yardstick FFP will measure by.  At the end of this season we have 10 contracts set to be expiring,  we will be able to adjust our salary overspends and give us the breathing space that we need.

 A £100m loan levied against final positions and being amortised over say a five year period, with the potential revenue the new buildings would bring in, sounds like a sound judgement. 

Edited 18 October 2022 by sacreblueits442
Spelling error.

[ajthefox]

8 hours ago, Stadt said:

The membership policy is insane. Shifting an additional 5000 memberships (seems unlikely) but putting off 20,000 (?) individual supporters from buying tickets because they can't buy one is insane. It's a not a surprise of our finances are a mess when we actively prevent fans from buying tickets.

You say that but that's what most clubs are doing these days isn't it? If it were that bad for them financially would they still be doing it? 

 

Whilst the stadium is full every week I'd argue it makes financial sense. I think it's shite for the fans but what else is new.

[Stadt]

3 hours ago, ajthefox said:

You say that but that's what most clubs are doing these days isn't it? If it were that bad for them financially would they still be doing it? 

 

Whilst the stadium is full every week I'd argue it makes financial sense. I think it's shite for the fans but what else is new.

For the big 6 I’d imagine it makes sense because they have large ST waiting lists, international members, tourists and non-local fans. The structure of our support is different to that.

 

I’ve heard of multiple occasions where people didn’t even know they could get a ticket, or when they’ve looked - no general sale option has put them off.

 

In the short term, we might shift more memberships but putting off a larger number of casual fans seems to be very short sighted.

[UHDrive]

13 hours ago, davieG said:

An example of an agreed 106 contribution which we seemingly have not yet agreed for our submission although improvements to the Raw Dykes which we've already agreed should be part of it. I'd like to think they're waiting on the Ivanhoe line and it would be to fund a Station or part of it.

 

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/new-117-home-estate-set-7714047

 

A bid to build 117 new homes on the site of a former bus depot has been submitted to Leicester City Council. The old Abbey Park Road Bus and Tram Depot was left devastated by a fire in 1999, kick-starting moves to find a new depot elsewhere in the city.

The proposal has been approved by the city’s planning officers, who say it fits in with the aims and aspiration for the area, which the council has earmarked for regeneration. The main access to the site would be via an extension of the existing Wolsley Island Way road.

 

The applicant has also agreed to make a section 106 contribution of around £202,000 with the council which will be used for improvements to Abbey Park. A Section 106 agreement is a legally-binding contract that ties developers in to making financial contributions to ensure local services and infrastructure can cope with a higher population as a result of new developments.

 

 

 

I haven't been to the KP since September. Has there been any engineering/highways works started?

 

Highways are out of S106 contracts and are contributory sums paid under S278 agreements and in association with S104/S38 agreements and so on. 

 

Planning departments are hugely in dissaray right now because the planning officer has effective approved the development subject to the S106 (normal) yet has technically held back approval under pending on the planning website. 

 

Very unhelpful from the LA

[davieG]

9 hours ago, UHDrive said:

I haven't been to the KP since September. Has there been any engineering/highways works started?

 

Highways are out of S106 contracts and are contributory sums paid under S278 agreements and in association with S104/S38 agreements and so on. 

 

Planning departments are hugely in dissaray right now because the planning officer has effective approved the development subject to the S106 (normal) yet has technically held back approval under pending on the planning website. 

 

Very unhelpful from the LA

Nothing noticeable, I guess some serious surveying could be going on in the week.

[MarriedaLeicesterGirl]

14 hours ago, Stadt said:

For the big 6 I’d imagine it makes sense because they have large ST waiting lists, international members, tourists and non-local fans. The structure of our support is different to that.

 

I’ve heard of multiple occasions where people didn’t even know they could get a ticket, or when they’ve looked - no general sale option has put them off.

 

In the short term, we might shift more memberships but putting off a larger number of casual fans seems to be very short sighted.

Part of it, and this is pure conjecture on my part, is some of the crap that went on during European nights last season. A lot of general ticket sales, and a lot of trouble (drug use in the toilets, a bit of bad fan behavior, etc.) With ticket sales being what they are, there is no real need to put them on general sale.

 

But with an expansion, you need the general sale infrastructure in place, even if you are selling 99 percent of your tickets to members of some sort. We already see some of the low turnouts for cup games, it will look even more barren in a larger stadium.

[Ashley]

I've said it before on here. I'll say it again. 

 

People aren't going currently because at the majority of games only single seats remain. So mates can't go together. 

 

We need to adopt an approach similar to what West Ham did with the London Stadium to future proof ££ to the club. 

 

You can only get a ST if you buy it for 5 years, payable by DD. 

 

40k is the first expansion anyway... should we need it, we can expand above that..