US Presidential Election 2024

[Sampson]

6 hours ago, foxile5 said:

I am not advocating for Trump. I do not support his brand of politics. I'm not a trump man. 

 

With that caveat writ large. 

 

The American working class have been told if you disagree with immigration you're a racist and if you don't subscribe to an extreme view of gender politics you're a bigot.

 

The left have eaten their own tail with certain political stances that have alienated their core vote. The moderate has been left with a choice that has forced them right. A subsection of a massive society has been prioritised (and I am not saying I disagree) that has left the undecided the deciding factor.

This just strikes me  as standard “enlightened centrist” rhetoric personally. Trump isn’t offering nuanced arguments on immigration saying we aren’t building the infrastructure or integrating so need to reduce numbers while still accounting for population ageing and demographic change. He’s literally saying “America for Americans”, saying immigrants eat pets and saying he’s going to bring about mass deportation.
 

Call me a delusional lefty all you like, but I can’t see how whipping up hate against immigrants by saying the eat people’s pets is something “moderates” should be wooed by and how that is somehow the left’s fault that they are if they are pushing back against that kind of thing. The idea that Trump is the moderate vote and the Democrats are somehow less moderate and more divorced from reality than Trump like that I think is a strange argument about where you want a “moderate” position to lie. The left absolutely should be pushing back against that kind of rhetoric if you want the moderate and centre ground to stay at a reasonable place.

Edited 7 November 2024 by Sampson

[spacemunky]

Talked to one of my best friends today, who lives in Boston. Him and his family were absolutely gutted by the results of the election.

 

I told him we'd take all of the New England states as part of Canada.

 

On that note, we could very well end up with our own Trump in the next election.

 

Baffling times.

[Koke]

7 hours ago, foxile5 said:

It really isn't too much to ask that immigration and discussion therein isn't considered right wing. 

 

A big failure of the the American left is to not consider that.

 

That's because the way the right talk about immigration/immigrants is disgusting. If they talked about it without dehumanising immigrants and viewing them as scum, the left wouldn't have the reaction you're referring to.

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, Foxdiamond said:

Leaving Trump aside for a moment I think it has been easy to ignore increased defence spending in the past

I have to ask again though - where is the threat that merits such increased spending on killing - sorry, "defence" - especially when public services in the UK are already running on empty and there's a global threat out there that already needs addressing.

 

 

7 hours ago, Jattdogg said:

Miss the way Obama carries himself and talks. Can't say he was all that and a bag of chips as a president policy wise but the man can nail a speech and make you feel like you can do anything lol.

That a better world for everyone was at least possible, yes. You don't see that with Trump, not for everyone, not even close. At all.

 

7 hours ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Not sure the over glorification on a war criminal quite makes the point you’re looking for.

If we're going by that metric, then every president back to Lyndon Johnson is likewise a war criminal, so I'm not sure of the point being driven at here.

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, foxile5 said:

'Yeah but he's an idiot' 

 

That has never played in an American market. Why would you ever lean on that as a gambit? 

 

Why not -

 

Tough on illegal immigration

Harder on unpaid tax 

More support for the worker 

 

All nicely vague and evidencible. Get the swing votes on side and seize power. Left wing politics done right.

 

7 hours ago, foxile5 said:

I am not advocating for Trump. I do not support his brand of politics. I'm not a trump man. 

 

With that caveat writ large. 

 

The American working class have been told if you disagree with immigration you're a racist and if you don't subscribe to an extreme view of gender politics you're a bigot.

 

The left have eaten their own tail with certain political stances that have alienated their core vote. The moderate has been left with a choice that has forced them right. A subsection of a massive society has been prioritised (and I am not saying I disagree) that has left the undecided the deciding factor.

 

1 hour ago, Sampson said:

This just strikes me  as standard “enlightened centrist” rhetoric personally. Trump isn’t offering nuanced arguments on immigration saying we aren’t building the infrastructure or integrating so need to reduce numbers while still accounting for population ageing and demographic change. He’s literally saying “America for Americans”, saying immigrants eat pets and saying he’s going to bring about mass deportation.
 

Call me a delusional lefty all you like, but I can’t see how whipping up hate against immigrants by saying the eat people’s pets is something “moderates” should be wooed by and how that is somehow the left’s fault that they are if they are pushing back against that kind of thing. The idea that Trump is the moderate vote and the Democrats are somehow less moderate and more divorced from reality than Trump like that I think is a strange argument about where you want a “moderate” position to lie. The left absolutely should be pushing back against that kind of rhetoric if you want the moderate and centre ground to stay at a reasonable place.

 

26 minutes ago, Koke said:

 

That's because the way the right talk about immigration/immigrants is disgusting. If they talked about it without dehumanising immigrants and viewing them as scum, the left wouldn't have the reaction you're referring to.

Pretty much both of this, really.

 

Sometimes racism is racism and bigotry is bigotry, and it should no longer be casually accepted. Of course that's going to lead to pushback. Quite frankly, in parts of the US women have been treated as chattel of husbands and fathers, anyone nonwhite as subhuman, and LGBT people as abominations for too long. The only thing that differentiates some of the fundie right over there from the Taliban is what the women are allowed to wear - and yet we're told to understand the sentiment these people have.

 

The only thing I'll add is a sentence I've read before: "Your concerns may be legitimate, but are you sure neofascists are your answer?"

 

Edit: of course people voted for the man for other reasons than those above (money), but that still plays into their hands, and history doesn't give a free pass to them, either.

Edited 7 November 2024 by leicsmac

[HighPeakFox]

As someone who most would refer to as left=leaning, I am sick to the teeth of every awful thing that the right do, or every lurch further right, or every egregious voting choice or every apology made for people like Donald existing, every justification for voting for someone clearly wanting to dismantle a democracy, being blamed on the left. 'It's not my fault I voted for a demagogue, I was forced into it by a terrible leftie'.

 

I blame the conman, not the conned, but don't try to make excuses when you've been hooked.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

As someone who most would refer to as left=leaning, I am sick to the teeth of every awful thing that the right do, or every lurch further right, or every egregious voting choice or every apology made for people like Donald existing, every justification for voting for someone clearly wanting to dismantle a democracy, being blamed on the left. 'It's not my fault I voted for a demagogue, I was forced into it by a terrible leftie'.

 

I blame the conman, not the conned, but don't try to make excuses when you've been hooked.

And be ready to be held accountable for every drop of blood spilled when the consequences of electing such leaders comes about. Which it will.

[leicsmac]

On the topic of consequences...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ygplyg09ro

 

Donald Trump's return to the White House will have a hugely negative effect on climate change action in the short-term but the longer term impact is less certain, experts say.

With world leaders meeting next week for the latest UN climate talks, COP29, external, the Trump victory will be seen as a huge roadblock to progress in both cutting emissions and raising cash for developing countries.

The US president-elect is a known climate sceptic who has called efforts to boost green energy a "scam".

 

This will have some consequences. How surprising.

 

[Jon the Hat]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

On the topic of consequences...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ygplyg09ro

 

Donald Trump's return to the White House will have a hugely negative effect on climate change action in the short-term but the longer term impact is less certain, experts say.

With world leaders meeting next week for the latest UN climate talks, COP29, external, the Trump victory will be seen as a huge roadblock to progress in both cutting emissions and raising cash for developing countries.

The US president-elect is a known climate sceptic who has called efforts to boost green energy a "scam".

 

This will have some consequences. How surprising.

 

Lets remember that you cannot take Trump at his word.  He doesn't do most of what he says.  

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

Lets remember that you cannot take Trump at his word.  He doesn't do most of what he says.  

An argument I've heard before that has merit, though on this particular matter he did do a lot of what he said last time round.

 

I guess we'll find out, though it would have been nice to not have to take that gamble when the stakes are so high. But here we are, I guess.

[Pliskin]

This could be the most damaging 4 years the world has seen post WW2…. I get a feeling Trump on this occasion has come back with an agenda, like a Bond villain returning but this time he will want to cram as much into four years as possible….. or even worse completely destroy American politics and democracy by becoming the dictator he’s dreamed of being. 
 

 

It’s okay having comical stabs at the guy, but he’s a genuinely dangerous man, now an angry dangerous man, who as a modern day politician stated Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was ‘genius’ and Putin can ‘do what the hell he wants’……. This is the talk of an unhinged, desperate, delusional maniac who’s yet again been granted an opportunity to drive the biggest train in the world…..

[ramboacdc]

Reading some of the BBC news articles this morning, they said Linda McMahon of WWE fame was on his campaign staff. They also said, and I don't know if I took this in a different way to how it was meant to come across, that there was a guy on his staff who "had some experience hiring a lot of people quickly" as all his previous staff died on 9/11. Surely there was a different way of wording that...

[Otis]

Day 2.

The meltdown continues. 

[HighPeakFox]

2 minutes ago, Otis said:

Day 2.

The meltdown continues. 

If you've nothing to say but this, perhaps you might choose to spend your energies elsewhere. 

[Otis]

Just now, HighPeakFox said:

If you've nothing to say but this, perhaps you might choose to spend your energies elsewhere. 

You OK hun?

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

If you've nothing to say but this, perhaps you might choose to spend your energies elsewhere. 

Come on Peaky, obvious bait is obvious.

[Sir Steve Howard]

15 hours ago, foxile5 said:

STEM isn't a reliable or valid measure. You're presuming that they're the only valuable subjects for assessing worth and a proxy for intelligence - isn't Musk both a Trump supporter and poster boy for STEM advancement? 

 

Also - it precludes critical thinking subjects who are much more likely to have an analytical approach to something as distinctly un-empirical like politics - English, Psychology, Sociology. 

 

You're assuming that Science, Technology, Engineering, and Maths are somehow the critical thinking subjects rather than the subjects who are most subsidised because of the capitalist social structure they best serve. 

 

Further to this - separating by STEM would remove a lot of PhD students.

Yes.

 

The suggestion that grads in English, Psychology, Sociology(!!!) would have a more analytical approach to politics than those who did STEM subjects is dubious at best.

[Foxdiamond]

As far as defence is concerned Churchill was probably right when he said speak softly but carry a big stick. Assuming there is a collective need for Nato then we can't expect the US to do the heavy lifting without spending from the other countries. 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

Yes.

 

The suggestion that grads in English, Psychology, Sociology(!!!) would have a more analytical approach to politics than those who did STEM subjects is dubious at best.

I would say at this point that the incoming administration has a record of actually listening to STEM sources regarding policy that is sketchy at best and laughable at worst anyway.

 

5 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

As far as defence is concerned Churchill was probably right when he said speak softly but carry a big stick. Assuming there is a collective need for Nato then we can't expect the US to do the heavy lifting without spending from the other countries. 

The nations of the world spent $2.44 trillion last year on developing and maintaining ways to kill and maim each other.

 

There's rather a lot of money to go round, clearly.

[Guest Lako42]

55 minutes ago, Otis said:

Day 2.

The meltdown continues. 

[Foxdiamond]

Just now, leicsmac said:

I would say at this point that the incoming administration has a record of actually listening to STEM sources regarding policy that is sketchy at best and laughable at worst anyway.

 

The nations of the world spent $2.44 trillion last year on developing and maintaining ways to kill and maim each other.

 

There's rather a lot of money to go round, clearly.

So would you completely scrap the armed forces of the UK?

[Babylon]

14 hours ago, whoareyaaa said:

Does America not control what happens around the world though ? 

 

Would Putin have gone to war if Trump was President ? 

No and probably. 

 

America doesn't control the shut down of factories and plants around the world during covid, the slump in demand, and then the rampant demand after. That's what started the inflation ramp up before Ukraine even happened. 

 

I'd imagine Putin is gleeful at the prospect of Trump pulling out all support and just steam rolling Ukraine. Trump won't stop him, unless Putin wants to make it look like he has. 

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Lets remember that you cannot take Trump at his word.  He doesn't do most of what he says.  

Last time he had lots of people around him attempting to quell the most bat shit stuff... this time those people aren't there, so we'll see. 

[davieG]

[Koke]

1 hour ago, Otis said:

Day 2.

The meltdown continues. 

 

I'm not seeing a meltdown. Just people expressing their opinions and dislike for Trump.