The Nuclear Age: Eighty Years On

[leicsmac]

Around twelve hours short of eighty years ago, on the morning of the 6th of August 1945 on the Japanese Home Islands, a single American plane (with a few others in support roles) undertook a mission that would change the world forever. 

 

Around 70000 people in the city of Hiroshima died in practically an instant that day. Perhaps as many again died by the end of the year as a direct result of the first use of a nuclear weapon in warfare. 

 

A second such weapon was dropped on the city of Nagasaki (not the original target) three days later. It killed roughly 40000 people immediately, and perhaps the same again by years end. 

 

Japan surrendered about a week later.

 

Four years afterwards, the USSR joined the US in the nuclear club, and since then a handful of nations, including the UK, have done likewise - some deniable, some not. 

 

Up until the end of the Cold War, the threat of nuclear annihilation was a fact of life. The invasion of Ukraine by Russia more recently has brought back some of those old fears, and some of the survivors of the only times a nuclear weapon has been dropped in anger have taken what will likely be their last chance on an anniversary to speak their piece.

 

So... eighty years after the world changed irrevocably, have such weapons served their purpose? Was the original attack justified? What role, if any, should such weapons have going forward into the future? Is it possible to separate the process of generating material for fission/fusion power and generating it for weaponry? What other questions arise?

 

There are so many questions that a lot of people have talked about and written about ever since the first weapons were used, and there seems to be an interest in it here that spanned a couple of threads, so I decided to start this one for all related discussion, given the significance of both the event and that tomorrow (in the UK) it will be exactly eighty years since the first one was used. 

Edited 5 August 2025 by leicsmac

[Muzzy_no7]

Was the original attack(s) justified? Yes. They brought an end to the war and saved likely millions more lives. 
 

But because of them the world should do everything it its power to avoid their use, ever again. 
 

Power being the key word..

Edited 5 August 2025 by Muzzy_no7

[Foxdiamond]

I would only add that an uncle of mine serving with the British army in the far east at the time was very relieved the war with Japan ended as it did as the prospect of allied casualties were horrific. Came too late for his brother who died in a Japanese prison camp 2 months before after 3 years of brutal and inhumane conditions.

[leicsmac]

A related observation I've seen that might be relevant to this matter, as well:

 

Winners never commit war crimes. Even when they do.

[Dunge]

As awful as nukes are, any debate always comes down to one thing for me:

 

You can’t uninvent something.

 

The possibility of a despot developing nukes in an otherwise nuke-free world and using them to blackmail the planet has to be covered off. That’s why what we have right now has to be the best worst option.

 

Granted they should not be waved around like toys or with threats, idle or otherwise.

[Sol thewall Bamba]

No wars between major powers since their invention. Hard to argue that they've taken more lives than they've saved. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

12 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

No wars between major powers since their invention. Hard to argue that they've taken more lives than they've saved. 

Many, many proxy wars. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Somalia...

[Trav Le Bleu]

 

"The greatest achievement..."

[Sol thewall Bamba]

14 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Many, many proxy wars. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Somalia...

Add those deaths up and you'd still get nowhere near the deaths of a major war between two world powers, like I said.

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Many, many proxy wars. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Somalia...

 

5 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Add those deaths up and you'd still get nowhere near the deaths of a major war between two world powers, like I said.

Such weapons have evidently done very well to stop the major powers from messing with each other. However, they have done rather less to stop those major powers from messing with the smaller players. 

[Sol thewall Bamba]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Such weapons have evidently done very well to stop the major powers from messing with each other. However, they have done rather less to stop those major powers from messing with the smaller players. 

Didn't say they had tbh. 

 

https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8832311/war-casualties-600-years 

 

The nuclear bomb has resulted in the lowest military and civilian deaths per capita in 600 years. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Sol thewall Bamba said:

Didn't say they had tbh. 

 

https://www.vox.com/2015/6/23/8832311/war-casualties-600-years 

 

The nuclear bomb has resulted in the lowest military and civilian deaths per capita in 600 years. 

Yep. 

 

Such weapons clearly appear to be helping with the big picture, hopefully a solution can be found to the smaller picture (which is a bit of a corollary of the big one) too. 

[Torquay Gunner]

I am hardly a big fan of the US,  but just imagine if Germany or Japan had got there first. Doesn’t really bear thinking about. 

Edited 5 August 2025 by Torquay Gunner

[leicsmac]

An additional argument that has been made was that the Soviets were keen on taking as much Japanese-held territory as they could (including all of Korea) before the surrender, so it was in the US interest at the time to force the surrender as quickly as possible before they took much more. 

[Heathrow fox]

10 hours ago, leicsmac said:

An additional argument that has been made was that the Soviets were keen on taking as much Japanese-held territory as they could (including all of Korea) before the surrender, so it was in the US interest at the time to force the surrender as quickly as possible before they took much more. 

Worth mentioning that the fire bombing campaign of Japans major cities by the USAF in the spring of 1945.Including the One hundred thousand civilians killed in two raids over Tokyo over two nights.Thats thirty thousand more lives taken than the entire  German blitz campaign in just over twenty four hours.

 

Some argue that the Soviet invasion of Manchuria was the final nail in the coffin.Japan then had no mediator going forward.They were well and truly on their own from that point.

 

You would imagine that the Japanese high command were expecting some sort of surprise attack.They may well have known about the existence of a new WMD.That said I think it would have taken a while for the events to sink in.The vast majority of the Japanese population would be oblivious Unless witnessed,how could you comprehend such a thing.

 

 

[blabyboy]

There's is a documentary on bbc4 on iPlayer called Atomic People, that was aired at the weekend. Very poignant, very graphic at times, but an interesting look at the impact of the bombs and the legacy from the people that were in those cities at the time of the drops. Some of the footage I hadn't seen before, really makes you think about you and yours if it happened here.

[Heathrow fox]

The Japanese film Black Rain is quite a harrowing watch.It’s about the short and long term effects of the first Atomic bomb on a family living in Hiroshima.

[MC Prussian]

If you haven't done so, read "Hiroshima" by John Hersey.

Tells the tale of several individuals just before the bomb drops and how they deal with the aftermath.

[leicsmac]

Appreciate the recommendations, everyone.

[leicsmac]

12 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

Worth mentioning that the fire bombing campaign of Japans major cities by the USAF in the spring of 1945.Including the One hundred thousand civilians killed in two raids over Tokyo over two nights.Thats thirty thousand more lives taken than the entire  German blitz campaign in just over twenty four hours.

 

Some argue that the Soviet invasion of Manchuria was the final nail in the coffin.Japan then had no mediator going forward.They were well and truly on their own from that point.

 

You would imagine that the Japanese high command were expecting some sort of surprise attack.They may well have known about the existence of a new WMD.That said I think it would have taken a while for the events to sink in.The vast majority of the Japanese population would be oblivious Unless witnessed,how could you comprehend such a thing.

 

 

Apparently the Japanese knew about the potential for such a weapon, but thought it near impossible to actually create. 

 

It was only a couple of days after the one was dropped on Hiroshima that they truly knew what it was, and that was partly because of Trumans announcement. 

 

The Soviets launching their own attack certainly helped tilt the balance as well. 

 

WRT the firebombing campaign, the only thing I'll add there is that General LeMay, the architect of it, is on record as saying that if the US had lost the war, he fully expected to be convicted as a war criminal. The US leadership knew what they were doing, but as per above, winners never commit war crimes. 

[Detroit Blues]

7 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

If you haven't done so, read "Hiroshima" by John Hersey.

Tells the tale of several individuals just before the bomb drops and how they deal with the aftermath.

Second on the recommendation. I read it this earlier this year, and it was a very good compilation of accounts from the survivors. Some of the tales of survival are really beyond belief.  

 

 

[Lionator]

On 05/08/2025 at 11:04, Torquay Gunner said:

I am hardly a big fan of the US,  but just imagine if Germany or Japan had got there first. Doesn’t really bear thinking about. 

Japan could’ve been controlled but Hitler was a complete maniac who would’ve happily turned Europe into radioactive wasteland. Fortunately now even the most despotic leaders see them as a defensive measure, there’s a reason why North Korea is hardly discussed anymore. 

[Torquay Gunner]

56 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Japan could’ve been controlled but Hitler was a complete maniac who would’ve happily turned Europe into radioactive wasteland. Fortunately now even the most despotic leaders see them as a defensive measure, there’s a reason why North Korea is hardly discussed anymore. 

Not sure how you think Japan could have been controlled. They were the most militaristic nation of their age with a god complex. If they had the bomb they would have demanded the total surrender of everyone around them. 

[Sampson]

Yeah Imperial Japan’s forays into China were utterly brutal and dehumanising of the Chinese people and they killed millions. We overlook it often in the West concentrating on Germany but Imperial Japan were brutal. The bomb was also considered by some as just the next iterative step at the time. The Allies ratcheted up the attacks on Japan after the war had turned in 1944 and 45. Tokyo was completely carpet bombed only a few months before killing 100,000 people to try and get Japan to surrender in “Operation Meetinghouse” which supposedly killed more than Nagasaki or Hiroshima and they carried on. 
 

Not convinced Japan could’ve been contained if they got the bomb first. 

[Foxdiamond]

2 hours ago, Sampson said:

Yeah Imperial Japan’s forays into China were utterly brutal and dehumanising of the Chinese people and they killed millions. We overlook it often in the West concentrating on Germany but Imperial Japan were brutal. The bomb was also considered by some as just the next iterative step at the time. The Allies ratcheted up the attacks on Japan after the war had turned in 1944 and 45. Tokyo was completely carpet bombed only a few months before killing 100,000 people to try and get Japan to surrender in “Operation Meetinghouse” which supposedly killed more than Nagasaki or Hiroshima and they carried on. 
 

Not convinced Japan could’ve been contained if they got the bomb first. 

I had a neighbour who as a young man was a Chindit fighting behind Japanese lines. He said they were terrified of becoming a prisoner. The Japanese army was brutal to its own men let alone enemy soldiers that fell into their hands.  No chance of Geneva or Haig conventions being recognised or Red Cross parcels.