Israel

[moseeds]

Yes, agreed, Israels policies have 'fueled' the jihadis....but even if palestine and Israel found peace, the jihadis in there various form would not allow it to prosper....there are just some people that do not like anything or anyone that is not of there kind!!!!!

That is conjecture and unfounded.

The USA could end this conflict tomorrow, by having a word with Israel. But it chooses not to.

Instead it continues to arm Israel to the teeth and bankroll it with billions of dollars in aid (which it can't even give to its own citizens - New Orleans and surrounding area are still a wreck, a year on from Hurricane Katrina).

Meanwhile our government continues to act as the US's poodle and scuppers any attempt by the EU to take a role in this. One can only conclude that Blair treats the loss of Lebanese and Palestinian lives (and a few Israeli ones) as a price worth paying.

That makes him a racist lowlife in my book.

The sooner he can be forced out of Downing Street, the better!

Yo Blair’s own ministers are telling him he is wrong. UK and US are the only noteworthy nations that have not condemned the Isreali aggression nor demanded an immediate ceasefire – and instead have rallied behind the Israeli aggression. Which chapter of the Bible was Yo Blair or Dubya reading when they thought of that then?

To all those people still maintaining that somehow the Israelis are justified and why people go out to march on the street read Ultra’s post.

[moseeds]

Thracian

Unlike you I don't have the time or the inclination to write self-righteous, pompous 1000-word diatribes against those I disagree with, whether it's other posters, Rob Kelly, or anybody else.

You have made your position clear on numerous occasions. You see Islam and its adherents as the problem. Any evidence presented to the contrary is simply ignored.

Yet you tell ME I have "hatred in my heart"...

I think Thracian raises some valid points. There is a problem with Muslim youth in this country becoming “extreme”. Why that happens can be answered in part by Ultra’s post above, alienation from society and cultural rifts between parents and siblings amongst other things. However to somehow equate those few with Islam is just plain wrong.

And yes Thracian your posts are so damn long my computer crashed pasting them into Word. I think we should all write in txting styl innit.

[moseeds]

And here we go again. It is all someone else's fault - never about the intransigence of Muslim zealots aims/attitudes/manipulation/intransigence/refusal to see any other side etc, etc.

And what do the collective inadequacies produce - another day of lives being needlessly lost for whatever reasons.

And all, supposedly, in the name of one God or another.

If you are a true believer Ultra rather than a person who's been brought up or coerced into involvement in a religion which, often seems to me to have nothing to do with true faith and certainly nothing to do with freedom of choice or freedoms of any kind, then you should perhaps think about wiping all hatred from your heart and start doing your little bit to set an example and champion the cause of reconciliation.

If of course, you have the freedom so to campaign because my questions about freedom remain unanswered.

Don't even you think that, at this time, God might appreciate someone who tried to save lives instead of stirring up yet more bitterness and disrespect because, if the concept of God is reality rather than illusion, don't you think God might be cheesed off that so many of the people he provided with brains to think with, continue blasting his creations into pieces before the natural end of their three score years and ten.

And when I see the news bulletins, those deaths in either Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan are being caused by people of many nations, many religions or branches of religion. You cannot simply continue pointing the finger of criticism in one direction.

It just isn't true and if people like you continue to believe or pretend it is there will be no peace and God's name will continue to be abused and insulted by what amounts to nothing more than collectively sinful opportunists and hypocrites.

Wise words Thracian. I agree with you, but like you said earlier, not all things in life are plain black and white. We have to use our intellects to figure out the causes of our problems so we can rectify the situation and then attempt to cure them. What Ultra and yourself has identified are the causes of this problem. The situation is simple in essence to rectify. However, it is obvious that nobody on any side is using their intellect to rectify the sitation but they are being led by their hearts instead.

[moseeds]

I do indeed see Islam and its inherents as PART of the problem because if supposed moderates like yourself are so intransigent, so disinclined to see any fault but that of others, what chance is there of talking to the zealots.

I see Zionism as PART of the problem. We can talk about that at length too, but you wish to focus on Islam. Fair enough.

Of course, knowing the nonsense of these views it makes me extremely doubtful about accepting anything else you present as fact.

As far as I can tell what Ultra has said so far is well known and documented.

For your information I opposed the military action in Iraq LOUDLY AND CLEARLY before it even started and several times on this forum because it was illegal (in my view) inhumane, unjustified, misguided and was bound to be an idealogical and propaganda disaster for the West.

I agree with this sentiment, and I apply it also to what Israel is doing in Palestine.

You, on the other hand, never utter one word of criticism about murderous pro-Islam actions which are taken both militarily and idealogically with the sole intention of maintaining and extending the influence of a religion which is so uncertain of itself that its leaders are paranoid about not allowing any notion of free choice among its adherents, like yourself.

The actions which I assume you talk about such as suicide killing etc is obviously wrong and to be condemned. I don’t understand where this idea comes from that Islam is being spread by force. This is an old Crusaders tale that exists to our present time, completely rebuffed by history. Where is Islam being spread by force or violence? The violence we see is in Islamic lands. The terror we see in non-Muslim countries is just that and nothing more.

For what it is worth I wholly regret the virtual breakdown of relations between the West and the Islamic peoples, just as I am disgusted at the declared intention of spreading the word of Islam apparently regardless of consequencies.

Again I do not agree that Islam is being spread regardless of consequences. How can you ask people to join you in your faith if you are killing them??!

Are your people ever free to question the right and wrong of your actions as we are?

Far from hating you, I feel profoundly sorry for you.

Muslims do not need your pity Thracian. Right always will be right and wrong always will be wrong. Like light upon light, the truth always shines clear.

If you ever demonstrated through your words that you really do have a faith in and fear of God which demands only right thinking attitudes in respect of mankind then I would be deeply impressed.

But the impression I get is of a man who's been got at and manipulated by an ideology which - although quite possibly a potential force for good in its pure form - seems actually to have been hi-jacked by self-seeking fanatics who wish to terrorise both their own adherents and others into submission to their will.

I don’t know about anyone else, but nobody is telling me what to write here. I am writing it, like you Thracian, my intellect and my heart has seen what is happening there and I have recognised it as wrong.

Nothing new in that. Various New Age religions, even the Catholics and at times the Christian Church have all adopted the same approach by one means or another. But we're not talking about them. In fact, on this particular subject, I probably agree with you that there is little point in our talking at all.

I don’t understand, are you saying Muslims are being manipulated? I believe individual governments whip up their people, but not all muslims live in Syria or Iran. I described in my previous post how Sunni Islam has no clergy. Therefore there is nobody to control what to think and what not. When you see Muslims and non-Muslims protesting against what Israel is doing using the same arguments that I and others have it is because their intellect has allowed them to realise the reality of the situation.

[moseeds]

Right, thats enough for now, I have a few more meaty ones to get through so apologies once again.

[Thracian]

Yes the English did try and sort it out. Only after a hell of a lot of killing. You talk as if the Ireland situation is relatively new. The Irish were revolting ever since they were conquered, culminating in the creation of Ireland and now with the small matter of N.Ireland left. People hark back to history because they remember it. Sometimes it is hard to forget, it is human nature. It is easier said than done to “forgive and forgetâ€Â.

I repeat my assertion that your argument goes as follows:

Muslims are worse than Israelis, therefore they deserve it (in Palestine and Lebanon). I have not deflected away from the argument. This thread was titled “Israel†and I assumed it was regarding the Israeli campaign in Lebanon. I have tried to stick to that topic but did not believe I was going to have to defend over a billion Muslims. But so be it, it’s interesting so I will continue to do so.

I don’t know how you know that many African men keep women as sex-slaves. I don’t think the number of black Africans involved was as many as the number of White people involved. And, do you seriously believe if there were no Black people to help the White people the slave trade would have stopped?!! Of course not, the White guys would have just done the dirty work themselves if they needed to! So to say the black people should be blamed just as much is a weak argument.

I am sure you won't believe me but the simple reality is that I don't believe "Muslims are worse than Israelis".

I am truly sad that so many Muslims have had to sacrifice their freedom of choice on behalf of their religion but Zionism is no different and that, of course, is so much part of the problem in the Arab/Israeli conflict.

Regarding the sex-slaves it matters not how many people were involved. Men of all colours have long been willing toi do dreadful things for money. I seriously doubt white men would have fetched slaves out of deepest Africa safely on their own - what with disease and the risk of ambush, not to mention the logistics - and now, of course, there are many examples of black people running brothels and involving themselves in the porn industry (just as whites).

What are they involved with if not sex slaves?

[Thracian]

A - In short, no – but there are different opinions regarding this.

B – A muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim. A muslim man can marry a Christian or Jew. Therefore the children must also be brought up as Muslims.

C – Yes and vice-versa. Otherwise most of us lot would be homeless.

D – Yes. If any “Muslim” countries are not allowing it then it is their own idea and not one taken from religion.

Thanks for those answers.

And thanks for your general comments.

You come across as a sincere man, something I respect.

I will ask more about some of the points you made when I have a little more time.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

That is conjecture and unfounded.

It's the truth - the belligerence of jihadists is what started this battle in the first place. Oh, and that's also an answer to another one of your questions as to 'why the hell Israel is bombing Lebanon.'

[Dr The Singh]

I do not know of this “underlying Jihad of conversion†as you put it. Where is it? Yes Muslims are becoming more radical and extreme, and in reality are therefore deviating from their own religion.

The Mughal empire and the Sikh history is intermingled. I was in the British Museum in London on the weekend and interestingly they too admit there were no mass forced conversions as some historians like to believe. Think about it logically – it would not work in their favour. Successive Mughal emperors deviated from Islam and ended up creating their own religions – most famously the emperor Akbar. In relation to the Sikh religion, as you can appreciate, the Sikh people were a threat as a nation to the Mughal empire. If you read about Sikh history, you will see it becomes more revolutionary and militant as time progressed under the Mughal rule, hence stories about Sikh martyrdom etc becoming commonplace, culminating in the creation of the Khalsa.

Fighting for land is never in the name of religion only greed. Only fighting against oppression and hence for God is justified.

Elijah Mohammed is not a Muslim, nor was he ever a Muslim. He proclaimed himself a prophet and made his own Quran. Read about Malcolm X, why he realised the Nation of Islam was wrong and why Islam was right for him. Hizb ut Tahrir (HT) is not liked by the majority of Muslims and rightly so. I am not surprised you have hatred for them. The same goes for al-Mouhajiroun and any of these other dodgy groups the press seem to keep asking questions to with regards to Islam. It is like asking the National Front about the governments immigration policy and then proclaiming that as the nations mood.

Why? Well I can give you the really long explanation or the really short one. The short one is it protects society and will lead the believing communities to paradise. I don’t think FoxesTalk is the correct place to talk theology. With regards to what you dislike about certain aspects about Shariah I will try and answer that later because Thracian has big issues with it too!

Yes, there are many Israelis and many Jews around the world that can’t believe what the state of Israel is doing.

Moseeds, your opinions or replies are as expected, you give a alternative opinion\response to my posts.

You give the opinion that muslims that are doing wrong are deviating from there faith etc but those people(Mughuls\Alijah Mohammed, Ayotalah's\religious groups accross the world) would disagree those people believe that islam is such, i'm sure if you were to have a debate with Osama Bin Laden for eg, he would recite many Surah's from the Quran and passages from the Hadiths to substantiate his methods. Like previous posts i have stated it's about interpretation, the hadiths and quran and mohammeds life is one which is being debated in many different ways...... And as stated before, those minority groups have made a very big impact, a few bad man in power have directed a many good men to do bad deeds...........that's is the truth!!!!!!!!!

You spoke about mass conversions, I did not mention mass conversions. As stated the with regards to Sikhi it is fact that the Moghuls applied motions that were for conversions, eg conversion hindu temples in mosques, persecution of non muslims etc!!

Sharia Law, is not one that evolve's it is stagnant, we live in world alot different to one of the 6th century and obviously our values etc have changed. If your saying we apply parts of it then it it's not really Shaira Law. You say it protects society....I believe it takes society backwards....what's more applicable a law book that is written for the people by the people at the time of the people, or a religious law book that was written before the people, not by the people and by people from a totally different culture.

[Dr The Singh]

Suicide bombing is condemned. Fighting against oppression is justified. You refer to the Sikhs fighting against the Mughals and called them martyrs/saints. What do you think the Palestinians are doing?

You are asking me hypothetical questions which are pointless. I don’t know what would have happened. Israel is in a position at this moment in time to completely obliterate all surrounding nations through nuclear weapons and one of the world’s strongest and most advanced military. But they haven’t.

Sikhs did not kill innocent women and children, infact Sikhs faught more hindu's then anyone else, many comrades were muslims, Sikhs only faught against the Moghul regime and it's allies (many hill raja's)!!!!

Fighting against oppression is comendable, killing a child is not....

Again you imply that I condone Israel and it's actions, which I do not!!!

[Dr The Singh]

That is conjecture and unfounded.

Yo Blair’s own ministers are telling him he is wrong. UK and US are the only noteworthy nations that have not condemned the Isreali aggression nor demanded an immediate ceasefire – and instead have rallied behind the Israeli aggression. Which chapter of the Bible was Yo Blair or Dubya reading when they thought of that then?

To all those people still maintaining that somehow the Israelis are justified and why people go out to march on the street read Ultra’s post.

Moseed, I'm so disapointed in you, alot of what is in this thread is conjucture and unfounded!!!

Again you imply that I agree with Israely actions, yes I agree they should have the right to defend itself, but again I don't like killing of civilians.

,

[Dr The Singh]

Suicide bombing is condemned. Fighting against oppression is justified. You refer to the Sikhs fighting against the Mughals and called them martyrs/saints. What do you think the Palestinians are doing?

You are asking me hypothetical questions which are pointless. I don’t know what would have happened. Israel is in a position at this moment in time to completely obliterate all surrounding nations through nuclear weapons and one of the world’s strongest and most advanced military. But they haven’t.

I agree with palestinians fighting for there land there heriocs is great, I don't agree with killing innocent women and children, BUT common sense should previal, there efforts have had a negative effect........

I don't think so, I think it is a very valid question, one in it's harsh reality shows the thinking and actions from both sides..........the truth is Moseeds, that those nations around Israel are alot more terrifying, and if you were to answer the question, the answer would be very simple....every Jew dead in Israel.......truth is sometiimes painful!!!!!!

[Head Honcho]

Thanks for those answers.

And thanks for your general comments.

You come across as a sincere man, something I respect.

I will ask more about some of the points you made when I have a little more time.

I was going to say the same.

Hat's off to ya Moseed for taking the time and effort to answer most of the questions.

I may not agree with some of your answers and to some extent I now understand you when you say why are we asking you the questions-just because you are muslim!

I think a lot of us ask these questions to try and understand how the(please pardon the expression) "ordinary" muslim in the street thinks.

Cheers

[Daggers]

What, like with Hitler? Stalin? Pol Pot? Chairman Mao? Pinochet? Franco? Mussolini? These guys are responsible for more deaths than all religions put together.

I didn't say deaths, and I would have to go study to disprove your claim. I suspect they are not collectively responsible for more death, and there is an element of religion to some killings related to some of the men you list.

I said the world would be a nicer place without religion and I firmly believe it. I see societies torn and blinkered through the bigotry that religion installs. Religions are not tolerant belief systems, they seek to subvert all other belief systems in order to become the dominant force. The fundamental tenant of religion is that of blind faith, an unquestioning observance to a doctrine.

Without allowing free thought, religion enslaves people and ties them to a set of rules. The rules bring misery and suffering to many: witness low castes allowed to die by the side of the road, death by aids because of a ban on contraception, acts 'in the name of' that only cause suffering to the innocent.

I prefer freedom. I prefer peace.

Yep, you speak sense mate.

You are the very first fool to say that, you must have hit your head as hard as I hit mine today

[moseeds]

Thanks for those answers.

And thanks for your general comments.

You come across as a sincere man, something I respect.

I will ask more about some of the points you made when I have a little more time.

I was going to say the same.

Hat's off to ya Moseed for taking the time and effort to answer most of the questions.

I may not agree with some of your answers and to some extent I now understand you when you say why are we asking you the questions-just because you are muslim!

I think a lot of us ask these questions to try and understand how the(please pardon the expression) "ordinary" muslim in the street thinks.

Cheers

Thanks guys. I apologise for the stupidly long wait in getting back. I understand that this is probably the first time you’ve had an opportunity to ask the questions that have been floating around in your heads, so I don’t mind answering the questions or giving points of view. I don’t expect you to agree with a Muslim’s beliefs nor with religion itself, but I’ve given you the point of view from this side of the fence anyway. I think there is a lot of ignorance amongst our society from all different backgrounds. I don’t know what multi-culturalism is but if it means disseminating ignorance between people and sections of society then I’m all for it.

Actually talking about societies - I read that when they were filming the new Planet of the Apes, the actors wearing the same suits (e.g monkeys, apes, etc) congregated together regardless of their “human” ethnicity. I think this says a lot about human nature.

Regarding Thracian’s racist experiences, I am sorry to hear that. On another thread the yob culture of Britain is being discussed (hooliganism) and sadly it permeates through every community. However, from my own personal experience, where I live I had my windows smashed in last week for being an Asian, and a few streets down there are National Front flags. Now I don’t know how bad the racist graffiti that Thracian saw was, but I can pretty much guarantee its an isolated case whereas what I just described is not. It’s all about perspective – which also applies to the reason why thousands jump onto the street when Iraq is bombed and nobody bothers when a few people are killed by Hizbullah and Hamas.

[moseeds]

I don't remember any declaration of War on all Lebanese. More an attitiude of "if you won't or cannot end this problem we have, then we shall have to do it ourselves" which is by no means the same thing as you well know if it wasn't more convenient to twist the truth to suit your own superglued attitudes.

You may cherish the day when Israel is defeated but that might result in a manumental tragedy for mankind and even afterwards you would find here are no real victories in war, only the enduring despair and incomprehension that remains for families long after the soldiers and other antagonists have gone.

I think knocking out power supplies, roads, harbours, hospitals is a declaration of war in not so many words. I do not want the destruction of Israel, nor have I stated that anywhere on this thread. That is an assumption you have made because I have condemned Israli action. By your logic most of the world’s leaders also want Israel destroyed because they too condemn this Israeli aggression.

I have not twisted any truth; if I have I would like to know where.

I am glad you recognise that there are no real victories in war, especially against guerrilla fighters as history has shown. So why is Israel hell bent on entering Lebanon again? Political show most likely? I wouldn’t be surprised if this time Israel begins the development of settlements towards the river in central Lebanon. Just a thought there.

I have just watched Schindler's List once again and been reminded of the many millions of Jews massacred in the most terrifying circumstances by the Nazi's to leave just 4000 Jews surviving in Poland when the film was made.

I imagine that, underneath, you are a decent man but the German attitude reminded me of yours. All that blind, uncompromising hatred and never a moment's thought that you might be wrong.

I don’t have hatred for Jews. Please do not accuse me of that. I have hatred of Israeli policy, American policy and UK policy. My attitude is shared not just by me, but millions of others, both Muslim and non-Muslim, Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc etc.

I truly thought the World Cup had helped me forgive. But seeing it all again makes it so hard because the legacy still taints that entire nation.

I remember my late father - one of the kindest men I will ever be privileged to know - and wonder could he ever, ever have been persuaded to have been a party to the baseless, calculated and systematic slaughter of innocents - including helpless women and children - whether out of fear or duty or ideaology. I really cannot imagine it.

In a previous thread I said it was hard to forgive and to forget. An article in todays Guardian describes how the Israeli action will only create hatred and anger towards them for generations to come not only amongst Palestinians, but a fresh wave of Lebanese who now support Hizbullah rather than despising them.

And yet less than 60 years later, those people, those Jews who so desperately needed shelter, are still the focus of hatred, still a nation which the Muslim leader of Iran would love to see wiped off the face of the Earth.

And you do your bit continuing to fan the fires of hatred in your own single minded and relentlessly one-sided way.

Like some of those Germans you may not play a big part. But you do your bit. You forever justify a conflict, never search for a solution.

If you are going to go back into history Thracian, then from another point of view we can say that the Europeans were the ones who hated the Jews. It is they who fanned the fires of hatred. And the solution they reached was to displace a nation to assuage their own guilt. If you call that justice then we can never agree.

It is not I who fans the fires of hatred. It is the aggression of Israel that has fanned the flames of hate against it. Sometimes I feel, if the Palestinians were a black people, no one here would dare say anything like they have done. Unfortunately for them and the Lebanese, they happen to be Arabs,

[TrickyTrev]

Yes, agreed, Israels policies have 'fueled' the jihadis....but even if palestine and Israel found peace, the jihadis in there various form would not allow it to prosper....there are just some people that do not like anything or anyone that is not of there kind!!!!!

That is conjecture and unfounded.

Actually Hizbollah are very clear that they will not stop until Israel is destroyed. They are essentially an anti-semitic group. Would popular support for such groups dissapear if Israel were to retreat to its 1967 borders? It's possible and maybe even probable.

You give the opinion that muslims that are doing wrong are deviating from there faith etc but those people(Mughuls\Alijah Mohammed, Ayotalah's\religious groups accross the world) would disagree those people believe that islam is such, i'm sure if you were to have a debate with Osama Bin Laden for eg, he would recite many Surah's from the Quran and passages from the Hadiths to substantiate his methods

From what research I have done into extremist Islam he would have to primarily quote from the Hadith's rather than the Qour'an to justify his actions theologically. That is where he differentiates form a "moderate" Muslim.

Sharia Law, is not one that evolve's it is stagnant, we live in world alot different to one of the 6th century and obviously our values etc have changed. If your saying we apply parts of it then it it's not really Shaira Law. You say it protects society....I believe it takes society backwards....what's more applicable a law book that is written for the people by the people at the time of the people, or a religious law book that was written before the people, not by the people and by people from a totally different culture.

I agree with this 100%. It is why whilst I will have every sympathy for the arab situation in the Israeli conflict, my ultimate long term position will always be that only when rationality rather than superstition becomes the dominant idealogy the world's people will be free. That goes for all interpretations of all the great religions.

[TrickyTrev]

It is not I who fans the fires of hatred. It is the aggression of Israel that has fanned the flames of hate against it. Sometimes I feel, if the Palestinians were a black people, no one here would dare say anything like they have done. Unfortunately for them and the Lebanese, they happen to be Arabs,

Would Isrsael be allowed by the international community to occupy lands that belong to white people? Would Israel ever have been set up in North America? Answer to both questions, no.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Would Isrsael be allowed by the international community to occupy lands that belong to white people? Would Israel ever have been set up in North America? Answer to both questions, no.

I don't think it was an issue of race at the time, but rather appropriateness considering Israelis once occupied their territory.

[moseeds]

It's all about their support of 'Palestine over Israel,' which is clearly the approach of some posters in this thread who first and foremost hold their sympathies to Islamic jihad before really taking an impartial look at the situation, and this kind of approach will obviously not help in understanding the situation.

I’m sure people made the same comment regarding black people and south Africa, or further back African nations and their colonialists. Magaret Thatcher called Nelson Mandela a terrorist. In the same way that people still supported the struggle, people will support the Palestinians because their fight is just.

[TrickyTrev]

I don't think it was an issue of race at the time, but rather appropriateness considering Israelis once occupied their territory.

Appropiate for the Jewish population? Yes. Appropiate for the West? Yes. Appropiate for the Palestinians?Evidently not.

I am cautious of criticising the UN however, the shadow of centuries of European anti-semiticism hanging over them was bound to lead to such a decision. It's just so sad how centuries of history of persecution always seem to lead to the next war in some way or another.

[TrickyTrev]

I’m sure people made the same comment regarding black people and south Africa, or further back African nations and their colonialists. Magaret Thatcher called Nelson Mandela a terrorist. In the same way that people still supported the struggle, people will support the Palestinians because their fight is just.

Their fight for the right for a state and Israel to return to the 1967 borders is just. Hamas stating that they will not recognise Israel's existance is not.

[moseeds]

There is one fact about Hezbollah that you fail to address and that it gets the support it does because of Israel and not in spite of Israel. If Israel wants to secure its borders then it needs to re-invent itself and not continue along this path to madness that it is currently on.

Well said Steven. This is the crux of the matter. Israel has played the victim for decades whilst in reality it has been the aggressor. The only way forward is whole-hearted diplomacy. And it must be whole-hearted and not a half-arsed attempt to grab headlines and look like the good guy.

[moseeds]

I wondered how long it would be before somebody played the "anti-semitism" card. It's frequently used as an argument in certain US and UK media to silence criticism of Israel.

Well it's not working here.

Israel does NOT speak for every single Jew in the the world. Many Jews are as horrified as anyone else at the carnage being wrought in Lebanon and Gaza, and if anything are all the more outraged by the suggestion it may have been done their name.

The Holocaust does indeed cast a long shadow. But to invoke it as some kind of defence or excuse for the events of recent weeks is completely unjustified. After all, how can the children who have died at the hands of Israeli artillery be held responsible?

Israel is a member of the United Nations. Is it too much to expect it to abide by the same standards as most other members?

Thanks for highlighting that Ultra. For some reason condemning Israeli actions is taken as condemning Jews. In the same vain is condemning UK actions condemning Christians? Or condemning Indian actions condemning Hindus?

Like you say the Holocaust rightly casts a long shadow on European guilt. Therefore the White man cannot bring himself to speak out against Israel because of their own collective guilt. If you don’t believe this is true then why do Israeli politicians always bring this up when defending their actions?! If you think I am exaggerating only yesterday Benjamin Netanyahu was doing the same thing on BBC!

I'm glad you mentioned those children - dead because of Hezbollah's irrepressible hatred, zealous idealogy and miscalculated stupidity - and how many more before that, not to mention those made homeless?.

I wouldn't expect you to mention Hezbollah's murderous missiles while you're at it, all secretly and calculatingly compiled in stockpiles underground for just such an inevitable occasion, and one they were bound to provoke once they were happy they could make enough impression and once they'd weighed up propaganda aspects.

And as the body count grows, still not a word of criticism of Hezbollah by you, not a word about finding answers just the same pointing malodourous finger of blame.

You can say the same thing about why Israel bombed the civilians. Yes Hizbullah’s ideology is stupid.

From today’s (02/08/06) Guardian:

ISRAEL READY FOR MASSIVE INVASION.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1835302,00.html

Also from today’s Guardian

Israeli Casualties

Military killed – 33

Civilians killed – 18

Lebanese Casualties

Military killed – 21

Hizbullah killed – 58

Civilians killed – 515 + > 3000 wounded

This is not to mention the power stations hit, roads, harbours, water supplies, hospitals, schools etc etc.

You used the words “Hizbullahs Muderous Missiles”. As the stats show, I believe you meant to say Israel’s MUDEROUS MISSILES. I read the other day that Hizbullah's missiles are so rubbish they ended up killing palestinians instead because of their "crudeness". However that does not justify what they are doing, but nor does it justify the response. The finger of blame is squarely on Israel. I urge you to read today’s (02/08/06’s) Guardian G2 section to understand what is happening in Lebanon while we discuss who is fanning the flames of hatred.

[moseeds]

It's the truth - the belligerence of jihadists is what started this battle in the first place. Oh, and that's also an answer to another one of your questions as to 'why the hell Israel is bombing Lebanon.'

That's a very simplistic view of the events.