Israel

[Deathside]

This is all a fúckin sick joke

[Monk]

The Lebanese government have done little to deter Hezbollah from using it's land to launch rocket attacks and therefore must take some of the blame!

I agree but my point is before this happened Lebanon has not been the most politically stable of governments, ever, really - so yes if it was say, for example Turkey who had failed to eliminate an internal force like this OK they have been out of order in not sorting it out - but the Lebanese goverment is not what you'd call a political powerhouse is it? So by blaming them we really get no closer to a solution.

[TrickyTrev]

When Hezbollah stop using highly populated areas as launch pads for their rockets, then and only then will the civillian casualty numbers decrease.

The Lebonese authorities must take some blame due to their lack of action in preventing Hezbollah from using these areas.

To be fair to the Lebonese authorities they have just come through one civil war and I doubt there is much hunger for another, thus why they have let Hizbollah control South Lebenon (where they have 80% support from the electorate).

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

I agree but my point is before this happened Lebanon has not been the most politically stable of governments, ever, really - so yes if it was say, for example Turkey who had failed to eliminate an internal force like this OK they have been out of order in not sorting it out - but the Lebanese goverment is not what you'd call a political powerhouse is it? So by blaming them we really get no closer to a solution.

True. From a strategic point of view it is a necessity as you pointed out. I've also pointed out that IMO Hezbollah have no moral claim to do what they've been doing.

Any country may 'need' to take military action but that doesn't necessarily justify it (e.g. Iraq, Israeli operations in the West Bank), but in the case of Israel and Hezbollah, the Israeli action is both justifiable and necessary.

[Daggers]

This is all a fúckin sick joke

The situation in Lebanon or just the quality of argument in the thread DS? I think a good case could be argued for both

[Ultra]

True. From a strategic point of view it is a necessity as you pointed out. I've also pointed out that IMO Hezbollah have no moral claim to do what they've been doing.

Any country may 'need' to take military action but that doesn't necessarily justify it (e.g. Iraq, Israeli operations in the West Bank), but in the case of Israel and Hezbollah, the Israeli action is both justifiable and necessary.

Why has Israel put the whole of Lebanon under a complete air and sea blockade, if, as it claims, it only wants to deal with Hezbollah?

[Monk]

Why has Israel put the whole of Lebanon under a complete air and sea blockade, if, as it claims, it only wants to deal with Hezbollah?

To cut off their supplies of weapons from other nations (Iran & Syria) and organisations? Just a wild stab in the dark....

[macbeth]

To cut off their supplies of weapons from other nations (Iran & Syria) and organisations? Just a wild stab in the dark....

wild stabs in the dark could only add to the problem i'm afraid and bush/ blair will get the blame for anyone getting hurt

[Monk]

wild stabs in the dark could only add to the problem i'm afraid and bush/ blair will get the blame for anyone getting hurt

Surely if they didnt blockade the borders then weapon supplies would keep coming in for Hezbolla?

I realise this has humanitarian implications and I am not in favour of it but I dont believe that the blokade is a malicious attempt against civilians.

Definition of a blockade from Wikipedia:

A blockade is any effort to prevent supplies, troops, information or aid from reaching an opposing force. Blockades are the cornerstone to nearly all military campaigns and the tool of choice for economic warfare on an opposing nation.

[Ultra]

Surely if they didnt blockade the borders then weapon supplies would keep coming in for Hezbolla?

I realise this has humanitarian implications and I am not in favour of it but I dont believe that the blokade is a malicious attempt against civilians.

Definition of a blockade from Wikipedia:

A blockade is any effort to prevent supplies, troops, information or aid from reaching an opposing force. Blockades are the cornerstone to nearly all military campaigns and the tool of choice for economic warfare on an opposing nation.

Which is why, whatever it may wish us to believe, Israel has declared war on ALL Lebanese people, not just those sections who back Hezbollah.

It has carried out similar activities before, in an attempt to intimidate Lebanon.

It failed before, and there's no reason to assume it won't fail again.

[Thracian]

When Hezbollah stop using highly populated areas as launch pads for their rockets, then and only then will the civillian casualty numbers decrease.

The Lebonese authorities must take some blame due to their lack of action in preventing Hezbollah from using these areas.

They won't do that. And lose all that propaganda. Tried and tested tactics. Similar in Iraq.

[Thracian]

Why has Israel put the whole of Lebanon under a complete air and sea blockade, if, as it claims, it only wants to deal with Hezbollah?

Because the admittedly weak Lebanese Government have done sod all to stop Hezbollah from getting a rolling conveyor belt of weapons for years, which they are now raining on Israel.

It is like our Goverment giving carte blanche for the National Front to rain missiles on your place from, say, Preston and doing damn all about it. You'd soon get pissed off.

[Dr The Singh]

Because the admittedly weak Lebanese Government have done sod all to stop Hezbollah from getting a rolling conveyor belt of weapons for years, which they are now raining on Israel.

It is like our Goverment giving carte blanche for the National Front to rain missiles on your place from, say, Preston and doing damn all about it. You'd soon get pissed off.

Yes your right Thracian but there is also a wider issue, the issue is of moderates of Lebanon and the Arab world turning a blind eye to the extreme. It's a fact that the middle east funds such extremist groups, it's a fact that the middle east religious groups and political groups (some may say they are too entwined to be seperate) that support such groups. There's different ways of supporting such groups, the easiest by least engagement, ie giving money, funds, land and the most difficult is actual participation.

Lebanon, whether weak or not, if Israel had occupied south of it's country (just say previous to Hizbollah), they would be in uproar, to the international community etc BUT why no uproar for HIzbollah taking control, not even a whimper, for me that implies support for there cause, that they are ok with the role in which Hezbollah are there or they think sod it we'll just turn a blind eye!!!!! Which I think is disgraceful, like Thracian said about the NF forming a regime in this country, the good people would not allow that to happen!!

[Thracian]

Which is why, whatever it may wish us to believe, Israel has declared war on ALL Lebanese people, not just those sections who back Hezbollah.

It has carried out similar activities before, in an attempt to intimidate Lebanon.

It failed before, and there's no reason to assume it won't fail again.

I don't remember any declaration of War on all Lebanese. More an attitiude of "if you won't or cannot end this problem we have, then we shall have to do it ourselves" which is by no means the same thing as you well know if it wasn't more convenient to twist the truth to suit your own superglued attitudes.

You may cherish the day when Israel is defeated but that might result in a manumental tragedy for mankind and even afterwards you would find here are no real victories in war, only the enduring despair and incomprehension that remains for families long after the soldiers and other antagonists have gone.

I have just watched Schindler's List once again and been reminded of the many millions of Jews massacred in the most terrifying circumstances by the Nazi's to leave just 4000 Jews surviving in Poland when the film was made.

I imagine that, underneath, you are a decent man but the German attitude reminded me of yours. All that blind, uncompromising hatred and never a moment's thought that you might be wrong.

And I considered how many people were involved in Germany - who played a part in that almost indescribable obscenity because it was thousands.

And most of them had families who have since taken their name into a new era but who still have to look back in the knowledge that their fathers, grandfathers, and sometimes their mothers or grandmothers were a part of that monstrous blot on the whole history of the human race because they accepted, even encouraged the presence of a misguided and murderous fanatic in their midst.

I truly thought the World Cup had helped me forgive. But seeing it all again makes it so hard because the legacy still taints that entire nation.

I remember my late father - one of the kindest men I will ever be privileged to know - and wonder could he ever, ever have been persuaded to have been a party to the baseless, calculated and systematic slaughter of innocents - including helpless women and children - whether out of fear or duty or ideaology. I really cannot imagine it.

And yet less than 60 years later, those people, those Jews who so desperately needed shelter, are still the focus of hatred, still a nation which the Muslim leader of Iran would love to see wiped off the face of the Earth.

And you do your bit continuing to fan the fires of hatred in your own single minded and relentlessly one-sided way.

Like some of those Germans you may not play a big part. But you do your bit. You forever justify a conflict, never search for a solution.

[Ultra]

I wondered how long it would be before somebody played the "anti-semitism" card. It's frequently used as an argument in certain US and UK media to silence criticism of Israel.

Well it's not working here.

Israel does NOT speak for every single Jew in the the world. Many Jews are as horrified as anyone else at the carnage being wrought in Lebanon and Gaza, and if anything are all the more outraged by the suggestion it may have been done their name.

The Holocaust does indeed cast a long shadow. But to invoke it as some kind of defence or excuse for the events of recent weeks is completely unjustified. After all, how can the children who have died at the hands of Israeli artillery be held responsible?

Israel is a member of the United Nations. Is it too much to expect it to abide by the same standards as most other members?

[Head Honcho]

I wondered how long it would be before somebody played the "anti-semitism" card. It's frequently used as an argument in certain US and UK media to silence criticism of Israel.

Well it's not working here.

Israel does NOT speak for every single Jew in the the world. Many Jews are as horrified as anyone else at the carnage being wrought in Lebanon and Gaza, and if anything are all the more outraged by the suggestion it may have been done their name.

The Holocaust does indeed cast a long shadow. But to invoke it as some kind of defence or excuse for the events of recent weeks is completely unjustified. After all, how can the children who have died at the hands of Israeli artillery be held responsible?

Israel is a member of the United Nations. Is it too much to expect it to abide by the same standards as most other members?

Don't you think that Israel has a right to protect it's citizens from Hezbollah attacks and if not why?

Forget the scale of the attacks or the number of civillian casualties, do they have a right to protect it's citizens from Hezbollah rockets?

[Steven]

Don't you think that Israel has a right to protect it's citizens from Hezbollah attacks and if not why?

Forget the scale of the attacks or the number of civillian casualties, do they have a right to protect it's citizens from Hezbollah rockets?

Fine but Israel has been doing this type of current action since the late 60's and has it worked? No it has made the situation worse and to do the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is a form of madness. <_<

[Thracian]

I'm glad you mentioned those children - dead because of Hezbollah's irrepressible hatred, zealous idealogy and miscalculated stupidity - and how many more before that, not to mention those made homeless?.

I wouldn't expect you to mention Hezbollah's murderous missiles while you're at it, all secretly and calculatingly compiled in stockpiles underground for just such an inevitable occasion, and one they were bound to provoke once they were happy they could make enough impression and once they'd weighed up propaganda aspects.

And as the body count grows, still not a word of criticism of Hezbollah by you, not a word about finding answers just the same pointing malodourous finger of blame.

[Head Honcho]

Fine but Israel has been doing this type of current action since the late 60's and has it worked? No it has made the situation worse and to do the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is a form of madness. <_<

........but still the question hasn't been answered.

Do they have a right to protect it's citizens and if not why not?

It's simple really when Hezbollah cease their attacks then Israel will not target the Hezbollah launch pads situated amongst the Lebanese population.

I know Israel have done it in the past but it is usually, not always might I add, with provocation!

[Steven]

I'm glad you mentioned those children - dead because of Hezbollah's irrepressible hatred, zealous idealogy and miscalculated stupidity - and how many more before that, not to mention those made homeless?.

I wouldn't expect you to mention Hezbollah's murderous missiles while you're at it, all secretly and calculatingly compiled in stockpiles underground for just such an inevitable occasion, and one they were bound to provoke once they were happy make enough impression and once they'd weighed up propaganda aspects.

And as the body count grows, still not a word of criticism of Hezbollah by you, not a word about finding answers just the same pointing malodourous finger of blame.

There is one fact about Hezbollah that you fail to address and that it gets the support it does because of Israel and not in spite of Israel. If Israel wants to secure its borders then it needs to re-invent itself and not continue along this path to madness that it is currently on.

[Steven]

........but still the question hasn't been answered.

Do they have a right to protect it's citizens and if not why not?

It's simple really when Hezbollah cease their attacks then Israel will not target the Hezbollah launch pads situated amongst the Lebanese population.

I know Israel have done it in the past but it is usually, not always might I add, with provocation!

You miss the point. Does the current Israeli action really protect it's citizens. I think not.

[Thracian]

Don't you think that Israel has a right to protect it's citizens from Hezbollah attacks and if not why?

Forget the scale of the attacks or the number of civillian casualties, do they have a right to protect it's citizens from Hezbollah rockets?

You're pissing in the wind if you expect Ultra to accept that.

[Head Honcho]

You miss the point. Does the current Israeli action really protect it's citizens. I think not.

Maybe not!

But it can't just do nothing.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

To cut off their supplies of weapons from other nations (Iran & Syria) and organisations? Just a wild stab in the dark....

I was about to say the same thing, then stopped when I realised the question was so daft it must be a rhetorical in nature.

Which is why, whatever it may wish us to believe, Israel has declared war on ALL Lebanese people, not just those sections who back Hezbollah.

This is really getting to fantasy land stuff now. Yes, that must be the answer! The Israeli government have a grudge against Mr and Mrs taxpayer Lebanon, and to voice their grude they have decided to bomb Hezbollah targets and strategic locations that will backtrack Hezbollah and its supporters!

Way to go Israel! Woo!

:pinch:

[Dr The Singh]

There is one fact about Hezbollah that you fail to address and that it gets the support it does because of Israel and not in spite of Israel. If Israel wants to secure its borders then it needs to re-invent itself and not continue along this path to madness that it is currently on.

Not quite, Hizbollah gets the funding and support becuase Israel exists, only the destruction of Israel will stop the support, that is a fact!!!!

The middle east and some radical elements may go away if peace could be found, but funded groups such as Hizbollah etc will exist along as Israel does....the middle east claim Israeli land to be part of Palestine, Israel does not exists....fact in there eyes!!!!