Why did we force out MA?

[l444ry]

Looks like there's a lot of score settling going on here. I don't have an axe to grind, have one or two contacts with the powers that be and have an elephantine memory. So here is why I think it all went wrong after MON left:

1) MON himself: he stirred things up both immediately before and after his departure. He said that Prem P8 was as far as the club could go and he unsettled a number of our better players.

2) PT: biggest scapegoat in LCFC history? His misfortune was that his failure looked catastrophic because it followed one of our most successful era's. However, he still should not have been appointed in my view.

The board had been warned by insiders at the FA about his tendency to alientate colleagues. His successes at lower league clubs were over sold as was his record with the U 21's (his 17 match unbeaten run was made up of qualifiers and friendlies). Critically, he had never handled big budgets before and (with one or two exceptions) predictably spent over the odds on the players that he knew - lower league types with lower than lower league technical ability.

Steve Walsh took the board's rejection of his own managerial bid very personally and spitefully undermined the new man at every turn. Although getting rid of Walsh was PT's only realistic option this action only served to damage the morale of the experienced pro's further. However, despite all of this (and a number of the aforementioned pro's DELIBERATELY under-performing to get lucrative moves away) LCFC were still P5 in the Prem and in the QF of the FA Cup come late March of PT's first season.

It was Mr Essendoah's late show that did it for PT. His strike ignited the fuse leading to the powder keg of tensions carefully nurtured by MON & Walsh. That's when all our Division One second stringers (realising they were all alone on the high wire) looked down and screamed 'Yikes!'

And thats when LCFC started to set different kinds of records such as longest losing streak in the Prem. As pressure mounted for PT's dismissal a delegation of senior pro's led by Muzzy Izzet went to the board to protest that the drop in form was not PT's fault.

If ever there was an admission of guilt...

3) DB: if he had been in charge from the very start of the 2001 season things MIGHT have turned out differently. Certainly we would not have lost 0-5 to Bolton on day one. That's when we became goal fodder for the rest of the Prem.

4) MA: club historians will probably look back in 50 years time and state that his achievement in getting the club promoted in his first season after the Taylor debacle whilst in administration was probably our finest hour (the fact that this success was so quickly forgotten prompted one Midlands Premiership manager to comment in an after dinner speech that LCFC fans, 'deserved a special award for being the biggest shits in the history of football').

Contrary to what people think now, MA's acquisitions for the Prem campaign were highly thought of at the time. In order to throw away seemingly decisive leads you must first of all score lots of goals. Poor teams struggle in that department. Losing big leads is prinicipally down to psychology. Complacency turned 3-0 into 3-4 at Wolves, blind panic 3-1 to 3-3 in added time at Boro.

MA initially tendered his resignation over La Manga as a result of barbed comments about the wisdom of the trip and his supposed role in it by former pro's (Steve Walsh again) before the full facts of the scam and the extraordinary corruption of the Spanish criminal justic system became apparent.

One of the facts behind his eventual resignation is still largely unrecognised - he was expected to leave anyway. Posters here with slightly longer memories than the average fan may recall that at that time there were manoeuvrings behind the scenes at the FA to ease Sven out of the England job after the revelations of his affair with 'Fire Alarm.'

In the game of musical chairs following Sven's demise it was expected that the present incumbent would take his job. MA was pencilled in as his replacement at Boro. To compensate, LCFC brought in Martin Keown to learn the managerial ropes. In the end Sven stayed, so did McClaren, so did MA. And ominously, so did MK.

More ominously still, the very players that MA had stood beside during the La Manga crisis showed their appreciation of his support by invoking the 'get out' clauses in their contracts that allowed them not to stay. MA, somewhat naively, saw this as a kick in the teeth.

It was this 'treachery' combined with MK's constant carping (Steve Walsh MK II) and a lacklustre start to the 2004/5 season (as well as the over reactions of some fans to it - their inflated expectations stoked no doubt by the bookies' short odds on LCFC promotion) all conspired to send MA into his final LCFC hissy fit.

Although I must confess I've always thought it rather odd that this came after a draw in the Carling Cup. Hardly the biggest set back in the world. How long was it before he was 'unveiled' as the returning hero at Highfield Road?

5) CL: seemed like a good appointment at the time. Like PT, his achievements (with Hearts) were over sold. Although a thoughtful and intelligent man he didn't internalise what was really expected of him at LCFC. He sometimes gave the impression that the height of his ambition was Championship mid table.

It soon became clear that this quiet, reserved man found it difficult to motivate and lift his charges (particularly away from home). Considering LCFC spent nearly two whole seasons in the lower reaches of the Championship under CL he was given a remarkably easy ride by the fans. A combination of sharply reduced levels of expectation and a measure of guilt over the way in which MA was 'hounded out' were possibly the reasons behind supporters' (over?) generosity.

A striking example of this was the claim by some fans that LCFC played some 'good stuff' under Levein. Playing statistics show that LCFC conceded more possession and gave the ball away more frequently under CL than at any time since the DB era. It seems to me that you see what you want to see.

6) RK: it appeared that he worked a minor miracle last season in maintaining LCFC's Championship status (and preserving our enviable record of only having ever played in the top two tiers of English football since admission to the Football League).

But was this a measure of of how good RK is or how bad CL was? The bright new dawn or the dead cat's bounce (the brief revival in an ailing club's fortunes that sometimes occurs when a new manager takes over)? Whichever way you look at it the board, no doubt, would want to take some credit for their decisive intervention.

So far so bad this season. No away wins and we've failed to score in 5 out of 7 matches. But it's too early to press the panic button.

Isn't it?

Very interesting post. Have you any hard evidence concerning Martin unsettling the players as I don't think there's a straighter guy than Martin O'Neill? I can't see what he would have hoped to gain from that. As for the players deliberately spiking Peter Taylor, perhaps he looked second rate following Martin and it's common knowledge that players soon find out if the manager is any good or not. And Taylor wasn't good.

[Janx]

Fox Doc has made me rethink a lot that went on in the past... he seems remarkably well informed.. and errodite...

Is he a Board member...and I mean LCFC not Foxestalk?

[Guest]

you think levein and kelly would be capable of even getting 3 goal leads? how often have they achieved that, whilst we did throw away leads to throw away leads you have to get them first.

That's alright then, we'll score loads and still get no points.

[Guest]

4) MA: club historians will probably look back in 50 years time and state that his achievement in getting the club promoted in his first season after the Taylor debacle whilst in administration was probably our finest hour (the fact that this success was so quickly forgotten prompted one Midlands Premiership manager to comment in an after dinner speech that LCFC fans, 'deserved a special award for being the biggest shits in the history of football').

Contrary to what people think now, MA's acquisitions for the Prem campaign were highly thought of at the time. In order to throw away seemingly decisive leads you must first of all score lots of goals. Poor teams struggle in that department. Losing big leads is prinicipally down to psychology. Complacency turned 3-0 into 3-4 at Wolves, blind panic 3-1 to 3-3 in added time at Boro.

MA initially tendered his resignation over La Manga as a result of barbed comments about the wisdom of the trip and his supposed role in it by former pro's (Steve Walsh again) before the full facts of the scam and the extraordinary corruption of the Spanish criminal justic system became apparent.

One of the facts behind his eventual resignation is still largely unrecognised - he was expected to leave anyway. Posters here with slightly longer memories than the average fan may recall that at that time there were manoeuvrings behind the scenes at the FA to ease Sven out of the England job after the revelations of his affair with 'Fire Alarm.'

In the game of musical chairs following Sven's demise it was expected that the present incumbent would take his job. MA was pencilled in as his replacement at Boro. To compensate, LCFC brought in Martin Keown to learn the managerial ropes. In the end Sven stayed, so did McClaren, so did MA. And ominously, so did MK.

More ominously still, the very players that MA had stood beside during the La Manga crisis showed their appreciation of his support by invoking the 'get out' clauses in their contracts that allowed them not to stay. MA, somewhat naively, saw this as a kick in the teeth.

It was this 'treachery' combined with MK's constant carping (Steve Walsh MK II) and a lacklustre start to the 2004/5 season (as well as the over reactions of some fans to it - their inflated expectations stoked no doubt by the bookies' short odds on LCFC promotion) all conspired to send MA into his final LCFC hissy fit.

Although I must confess I've always thought it rather odd that this came after a draw in the Carling Cup. Hardly the biggest set back in the world. How long was it before he was 'unveiled' as the returning hero at Highfield Road?

Can I borrow your rose tinted specs? I would hasten to add 'Chandler' in there too, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I can remember being very disillusioned during the promotion season, and had voiced my concerns at the time. Admittedly I was in the minority, but I think the fans were riding on the back of wins rather than the football itself.

I also remember us having the strongest playing squad in the division, I also remember the financial implications for the players if we weren't promoted (and it was voluntary, so they knew what they were capable of, don't anyone tell me they did it for the love of the club), and I also remember that the final weeks before we were promoted were very tense, as Sheff Utd started to catch us up (dropping points, hmmmm).

I also don't see why we should still be harping on about the ifs and buts of a manager who left almost 2 years ago. He's gone, get over it. We should be focusing on the present situation, and turning that around with the current incumbent.

[The People's Hero]

I'm all for pressing the panic button.

It's red, it's shiny and best of all it's a button - it's purpose is to be pushed.

In many ways it would be rude not to.

[Chrysalis]

Can I borrow your rose tinted specs? I would hasten to add 'Chandler' in there too, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I can remember being very disillusioned during the promotion season, and had voiced my concerns at the time. Admittedly I was in the minority, but I think the fans were riding on the back of wins rather than the football itself.

I also remember us having the strongest playing squad in the division, I also remember the financial implications for the players if we weren't promoted (and it was voluntary, so they knew what they were capable of, don't anyone tell me they did it for the love of the club), and I also remember that the final weeks before we were promoted were very tense, as Sheff Utd started to catch us up (dropping points, hmmmm).

I also don't see why we should still be harping on about the ifs and buts of a manager who left almost 2 years ago. He's gone, get over it. We should be focusing on the present situation, and turning that around with the current incumbent.

to be honest the football dont matter if the results come and I think most fans will agree. We may have had the best squad but the games still have to be won, you seem to be of the understanding any manager would have finished 2nd with that squad and I disagree.

[FNQ]

I can remember being very disillusioned during the promotion season, and had voiced my concerns at the time.

lol

[Fox Doc]

To those that took time out to read my waffle - a hearty thanks. To those who simply couldn't be bothered - I understand. My response to some of the points raised:

MON: not exactly the least slippery fish in the managerial pool. Spent virtually his entire time at LCFC angling for moves elsewhere. He developed a huge chip on his shoulder over the notorious fan rebellion in 1996.

A director of Sheffield Wednesday entertained him as early as 1997 about a possible move there (the fool plumped for Danny Wilson - who he?). MON went apopleptic over the Merc's 'Don't Go Martin' campaign that put the kybosh on his sneaky exit to Leeds and wouldn't speak to Blanderson (whom he saw as the orchestrator) for months.

When the time came for his holy pilgrimage to Celtic, St Martin made sure the covenant was signed during the close season so there could be no repeat of the placard waving frenzy that greeted him on that mythical night against Spurs.

It was 'Stan the Man' who tagged MON as being 'straight as a die' (NB MON didn't take Stan to Celtic Park). MON has always stood by his players against all forms of opposition (including the LCFC hierarchy as one hapless Barrie Pierrepoint found out to his cost). This means, of course, he takes ownership of them so wherever he leads, the lambs are sure to follow.

Neil Lennon and Matt Elliott definitely played within themselves during the PT era (the latter even turned up to training with alcohol on his breath to get his move to Cetic and earned the deserved opprobrium of LCFC fans) and there remain question marks over the commitment of several others at that time. There is no doubt that some of this disloyalty was triggered by signals coming from north of the border.

MON encouraged LCFC players to think that the club's great era was well and truly over with his passing. PT was neither experienced enough nor smart enough to convince them that the club could go on to greater things.

As for the poster who complained about the standard of football under MA during the promotion season (at a time when LCFC were literally within an hour of extinction) words utterly fail me. Its that kind of fan small mindedness, that inability to see the bigger picture that makes sure that small clubs stay small.

I don't believe in hurling personal abuse on forums like these but if ever there was an exception to the rule...

[Thracian]

Go on quantify that statement, just how do you reach that conclusion?

Come-on Barton...

Lots of what you say makes sense but are you truly saying that with the players on Leicester's books we couldn't reach midway in this division which looks generally poor to me?

We've already virtually donated seven points. Where would even half of those points have left us. Kelly seems to be operating as if there's a handicap system and we've got to give everyone else so many points start over the first couple of months.

With his selections we'll go down and let no-one pretend otherwise for the poor passing, the lack of goals and lack of midfield back-up so often mentioned.

You cannot operate a half-cocked attacking policy. But with a team based on:

Henderson/Logan;

Stearman/Kenton/Maybury McCarthy,Kisnorbo,McAuley Sheehan/Tiatto/Kenton;

Gradel/Low Hume, Wesolwoski/Porter/Williams, Porter/Tiatto;

O'Grady/ Fryatt/Dodds/Chambers.

Plus Hammond/Johnson/King/Odhiambo... we should do okay.

But to do it requires faith and real motivational abilities. The ability if you like to get the very best out of everyonewhich is simply not the case right now and the likely reason for that is there being too many disgruntled and inactive footballers around the place.

[lcfc_jme]

Come-on Barton...

Lots of what you say makes sense but are you truly saying that with the players on Leicester's books we couldn't reach midway in this division which looks generally poor to me?

We've already virtually donated seven points. Where would even half of those points have left us. Kelly seems to be operating as if there's a handicap system and we've got to give everyone else so many points start over the first couple of months.

With his selections we'll go down and let no-one pretend otherwise for the poor passing, the lack of goals and lack of midfield back-up so often mentioned.

You cannot operate a half-cocked attacking policy. But with a team based on:

Henderson/Logan;

Stearman/Kenton/Maybury McCarthy,Kisnorbo,McAuley Sheehan/Tiatto/Kenton;

Gradel/Low Hume, Wesolwoski/Porter/Williams, Porter/Tiatto;

O'Grady/ Fryatt/Dodds/Chambers.

Plus Hammond/Johnson/King/Odhiambo... we should do okay.

But to do it requires faith and real motivational abilities. The ability if you like to get the very best out of everyonewhich is simply not the case right now and the likely reason for that is there being too many disgruntled and inactive footballers around the place.

I don't think RK is capable of trusting younger, more attacking players to go out and perform, let alone bring us points back home. For a lot of the younger players to get a chance, we're going to have to have a shocker with injuries and suspensions. Otherwise, it won't happen.

Mid table in this league should be an absolute minimum. This division is full of poor sides, and we have players capable of doing so much better.

[Daggers]

Its that kind of fan small mindedness, that inability to see the bigger picture that makes sure that small clubs stay small. I don't believe in hurling personal abuse on forums like these but if ever there was an exception to the rule...

...and it was going so well until the last statement as well, oh dear.

What do you expect from fan forums? Failing to see the bigger picture? It's a pre-requisite!

How is it that "The Fan" is responsible for small clubs remaining small? Surely the responsibility for that remains with them that hold the shares in the clubs.

[Hullfox]

I don't think RK is capable of trusting younger, more attacking players to go out and perform, let alone bring us points back home. For a lot of the younger players to get a chance, we're going to have to have a shocker with injuries and suspensions. Otherwise, it won't happen.

I'm sorry Thrach but tonight you've really got on my tits.

Listen, the answer does not lie simply with younger more attacking players. Yes, in a way they're great to see but they do not necessarily solve all of your problems. Despite his undoubted talent, Porter gets knocked of the ball far too easily - he has not yet developed into a man.

I have today spoken to an academy player (in the mould that you insist will save us) and his own opinion is that the team needs things other than attacking youth.

For someone so obvously intelligent, you talk rubbish at time. Has it ever occured to you that your "chosen men" may not quite be ready in their own minds let alone RK's?

[lcfc_jme]

If Thracian has annoyed you, why'd you use my post?!?!

I can understand what you're saying, the younger more attacking players will not solve all of the problems, because just as you pointed out, they get knocked off the ball way too easily at times. However, they would give teams something else to think about, as they would know our side will go at them and could probably score quite a few goals instead of being really defensive.

[Hullfox]

If Thracian has annoyed you, why'd you use my post?!?!

I can understand what you're saying, the younger more attacking players will not solve all of the problems, because just as you pointed out, they get knocked off the ball way too easily at times. However, they would give teams something else to think about, as they would know our side will go at them and could probably score quite a few goals instead of being really defensive.

I apologise wholeheartedly to Thrachian.

It's you who's getting on my tits.

[Manwell Pablo]

I apologise wholeheartedly to Thrachian.

It's you who's getting on my tits.

[lcfc_jme]

I apologise wholeheartedly to Thrachian.

It's you who's getting on my tits.

fine by me mate, I don't mind annoying people once in a while, these things happen sometimes.

Maybe I am speaking too much about younger attacking players. I'll stop it and just say we need to be more attack minded in general. We won't win games and advance up the league being wasteful and cautious in possession of the ball. We need to push forward more and develop a killer instinct infront of goal. Without it we'll struggle to stay up, as defending too much almost certainly leads to conceding.

[Manwell Pablo]

fine by me mate, I don't mind annoying people once in a while, these things happen sometimes.

Maybe I am speaking too much about younger attacking players. I'll stop it and just say we need to be more attack minded in general. We won't win games and advance up the league being wasteful and cautious in possession of the ball. We need to push forward more and develop a killer instinct infront of goal. Without it we'll struggle to stay up, as defending too much almost certainly leads to conceding.

You're right in a way but I think certain people need to relise that a poor performance doesn't equal a defensive performance, just because we are being forced to defend doesn't mean thats how we want to play, and the lack of the creativity is down to our general lack of talent and not the approach.

[Fez of Mahrez]

You're right in a way but I think certain people need to relise that a poor performance doesn't equal a defensive performance, just because we are being forced to defend doesn't mean thats how we want to play, and the lack of the creativity is down to our general lack of talent and not the our approach.

Hit. Nail. Head. There is a reason why no teams play a whole midfield of the kind Thracian posted in the Team for Sunderland thread. You have to have balance and reliability.

[lcfc_jme]

You're right in a way but I think certain people need to relise that a poor performance doesn't equal a defensive performance, just because we are being forced to defend doesn't mean thats how we want to play, and the lack of the creativity is down to our general lack of talent and not the approach.

I agree with that, a poor performance doesn't mean we have intended to defend for that game, it just means our players lacked the quality and were punished by the opposition. I wasn't referring to our home performances and mentality anyway, as we do tend to go forward more there. I was more on about our away form when we seem content to defend for the majority of the game and play for a point - something I'd like to see change.

I can only hope that once Weso and Williams are allowed to have a chance at playing together in the middle of the park that we are more creative, because otherwise, we are going to struggle for most of this season.

[lcfc_jme]

Hit. Nail. Head. There is a reason why no teams play a whole midfield of the kind Thracian posted in the Team for Sunderland thread. You have to have balance and reliability.

Who would you like to see in our midfield to provide that balance and reliability then Fez?

[Fez of Mahrez]

Who would you like to see in our midfield to provide that balance and reliability then Fez?

For the record his midfield was Porter, Hume, Williams, Gradel. To include two players in central midfield who are highly prone to drifting out of the game for large periods and who have never proven consistently their ability to score or assist is tantamount to suicide.

I think it goes without saying that we need Weso back asap. The energy and aggression he brings us is what we are lacking in the middle of the park at the moment. I would play Hume there for the reasons I have stated previously on many occasions but I don't think it would be fair or intelligent to play Porter, Gradel and Hume in the same midfield either as the defensive burden would be too much for Weso to bear. Personally I would like to see Porter on the left, Weso and Hume in the centre and Hughes on the right. Hughes has struggled in the team recently and there is a real vendetta building up against him but with Porter and Hume given more of a licence to go forward, the onus would be on the right-sided midfielder to tuck in, especially if Hume drifts wide right, and provide defensive cover when we lose the ball. Hughes is the best man for this job. Hughes is suffering at the moment from playing alongside Johnson. I think having players like Weso and Hume around to lighten the physical burden would bring out the best in Hughes.

There are no golden answers within the current squad. I don't think any team anyone of us could suggest would live up to the high expectations we have as fans but that would be my suggestion.

[lcfc_jme]

For the record his midfield was Porter, Hume, Williams, Gradel. To include two players in central midfield who are highly prone to drifting out of the game for large periods and who have never proven consistently their ability to score or assist is tantamount to suicide.

I think it goes without saying that we need Weso back asap. The energy and aggression he brings us is what we are lacking in the middle of the park at the moment. I would play Hume there for the reasons I have stated previously on many occasions but I don't think it would be fair or intelligent to play Porter, Gradel and Hume in the same midfield either as the defensive burden would be too much for Weso to bear. Personally I would like to see Porter on the left, Weso and Hume in the centre and Hughes on the right. Hughes has struggled in the team recently and there is a real vendetta building up against him but with Porter and Hume given more of a licence to go forward, the onus would be on the right-sided midfielder to tuck in, especially if Hume drifts wide right, and provide defensive cover when we lose the ball. Hughes is the best man for this job. Hughes is suffering at the moment from playing alongside Johnson. I think having players like Weso and Hume around to lighten the physical burden would bring out the best in Hughes.

There are no golden answers within the current squad. I don't think any team anyone of us could suggest would live up to the high expectations we have as fans but that would be my suggestion.

If you want somebody playing right-wing, just ask Tiatto to play on the left for you. He's sure to do a sound job on the right wing if that is the case, as he is prone to going walkabouts unexpectedly. I'd like to see Weso back in as would everybody else. However, I'd also like to see Williams play in the middle with him, which is where I differ from your views of playing Hume there and Hughes wide left (I'd prefer to stick with Low).

[chili_con_carne]

We forced him out to stop that annoying Micky Adams chant being sang again.

ALL GAME that was sung with the banging on the stadium.

I wanted to kill micky adams myself

[Guest]

As for the poster who complained about the standard of football under MA during the promotion season (at a time when LCFC were literally within an hour of extinction) words utterly fail me. Its that kind of fan small mindedness, that inability to see the bigger picture that makes sure that small clubs stay small.

I don't believe in hurling personal abuse on forums like these but if ever there was an exception to the rule...

So why did people, towards the end of his tenure, call it "hoofball"?

[Guest]

to be honest the football dont matter if the results come and I think most fans will agree. We may have had the best squad but the games still have to be won, you seem to be of the understanding any manager would have finished 2nd with that squad and I disagree.

The point was, towards the end of the season we were struggling to hold onto points. I don't think we should have finished 2nd either, but that's another matter...

I never expected an intelligent response from you anyway. How is the Ricoh these days?